Science is not God

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Buddha1, Oct 27, 2005.

  1. duendy Registered Senior Member

    Avatarrrrr the great logistician--ashe thinks he is...mwhahaha... says 'this is my opinion'

    at LAST a bit of humility from the arroggant git!...wel, also keep yo opinon about me to yourself in future
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  3. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

    Calm down, duendy, there is just an objective reasoning that my understanding of the place of science in our society is quite subjective because I might have missed some important aspect (because I haven't thought much about it),
    besides you have no power to say what I should say or not,
    or what I shoud analyse or not. Like you for example.
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  5. duendy Registered Senior Member

    Ok, then let me analyze you you obnoxious little prick. you insult people and somehow blame teir reaction to your immature, and inconsiderate behaviour onto them.....when tey ask you for a one to one for you to explain your uncalled for slander of their character you chicken out. what kind o a person are you. i actually think i'd sooner have a baron max than suc asyou, and beLIEVE me tat is saying something

    you have crossed me twice now fuck face. first time you caled my brain damaged i reacted and expected an apology but didn't ad then i let it go, allowing for your immaturity, then i even engage with you --the last time--talking about consciousness. but no, you haven't finished wid your bullshite. if you were in front of me i would nut you good and hard and you wouldn't get up agin you cheeky cunt
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  7. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

    Can you take this to Private Message, please?
  8. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

    Good, good, I see you are improving in controlling yourself (at least in writing), probably has to do with the concentration on inflicting "damage" on my persona. Either way it's nice to see I have donated to the improvement of your writing skills, if just for this one occasion.

    Doubtful, but possible. I'm quite good at martial arts, even teach them for younger students.

    p.s. one_raven, I'm terribly sorry for this excess, but duendy just can't control himself and always seems to be unreasonably in tension.
    This reply should not have been and I apologise for it, I promise I won't reply to him in this thread any more.
  9. duendy Registered Senior Member

    look one_raven .....keep out of my business. it isn't you moron avatar has been slagging off in public in this thread. if so maybe you'd bea little bit miffed, no?
  10. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

    I have been disrespected in threads, and if it goes beyond one comment, I generally take it to PM.
    Especially if it is derailing the thread.
    I do not have anything to prove to anyone by "saving face" or some such thing, so there is not need to throw insults back and forth and play childish games on a thread that other people are following.
    Besides, many time other people DO wantto save face or have something to prove and discussing it privately will sometime diffuse that.
    So I might be miffed, but wouldn't trash the thread as a result.
  11. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member


    So can we agree (in relation to this thread title) that it is not people worshipping science as god, it is just that they see in it an effective methodological tool for their problem solving,
    and because most of the individuals in western (but not only) society have psychological problems* of their own their problem scope (so to say) mainly includes destructive and egoistic desires, what results in science being applied in such a way that the application frequently causes damage on the surrounding world?

    * For an example see Joseph Campbell "Hero with a thousand faces" pg. 10-11
  12. duendy Registered Senior Member

    fair enough, and a good reply one_raven....i really am VERY interested in this thread and in no way want to derail it, but you must understand i am very angry with the condescending insulting arrogance of that young whippersnapper, avatar. i HAVE tried t get thru to him pm, but he is impossible to deal with. he will insult you and ten pretend he hasn't and tat your obvious reaction is you not being'cool' etc. i could happly slap him........ but this is th last of it....for now anyhow

    So continuuing then. Science is god when people presume to be able to analyze people. Shrinks do this all te time, with te backing of 'science'. They will talk with teir colleagues in fron oftheir 'patient' as tough tat 'patient' isn't a human being wit feelings. That is science playing god......Such behaviour has been well illustrated in the latest proceedings. in this respect this behaviour CAN be discussed here
  13. duendy Registered Senior Member

  14. duendy Registered Senior Member

    Huwy....listen up. i am tired of going round an round in circles with you. you dont seem to absorb what i am saying-----and you mayfeel te same way with what you i have an idea:
    IF you would like to contact Dr Fred Baugfhman. He is a Neurologist who knows what he is speaking about, and is VERY familiar wit people who propaganderize about mental illness bein a biologcal disease, and therefore may be able to offer more in-depth reponse to your claims than i can, or have the patience to,,,,,,,,you could even transfer your dialogue with him to here. i am sure he wouldn't mind if you asked his permission. DONT BE RUDE!

    this is how you contact him

    good luck
  15. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

    I really hate this discussion on science to become one about mental illness.
  16. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

    Then don't discuss that.

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    duendy is touchy about this topic (for obvious reasons)
    and he's hardly impartial or objective.
  17. duendy Registered Senior Member

    6,585 are a bitch and beneath contempt. what mkes you so insdious is your self-imagined spiritual or whatevverrr superiroity. a very dangerous person are you, and well fitted into these tmes....i aint gonna sulk with you. i will give you as goo as you give, mr super- normal

    Buddha1....your timing is a bit off darlin. as you can see i have just tried to wind up with Huwy......But you area slo wrng if you imagine that the whole issue of the mental illness myth isn't CENTRAL to the whole question of 'science isn't God'....cant youu Seeee that????
  18. RoyLennigan Registered Senior Member

    mental illness isn't a myth, its just misinterpreted a lot.
  19. Huwy Secular Humanist Registered Senior Member

    Duendy has allowed his negative experiences and his racist agenda of being "persecuted" to force his views on everyone else who might be suffering from a genuine mental illness.
    Fair enough stick up for their rights, I do too. But don't tell them their problem doesn't exist. Thats just so disrespectful.

    If people don't like the stigma of being labelled as "mentally ill" then thats their choice, but it sounds like duendys problem is with a different type of stigma (i.e. racial).

    Why is it that the older generation don't like being labelled as having a mental illness? They act like they are offended, like something is "wrong with them" - when infact, a correct diagnosis EXPLAINS why their feelings, thoughts, or behaviours are different.

    I have no problem with being diagnosed as having (a few) serious mental illnesses, seeing a psychiatrist, or taking (a lot) of the medication - twice a day of my own choosing. Its all about quality of life.

    Apart from making me tired a lot of the time, It doesn't seem to have damaged my body or my mind - I can still spell, and I don't smoke so I doubt i'll be getting lung cancer.

    Plus it hasnt damaged who I am as an invidual. I'm no robot -
    I still do my little drawings in photoshop, make my tunes on the computer, (admittedly they are not as professional as i'd like

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    ) and I'm quite aware that the 9-11 story is a coverup and a lie (at the very least).

    So each to their own.
    Am I against locking up non-violent individuals who are capable of making their own medical decisions? Of course.

    Am I against forcing nasty anti-psychotic drugs on people who aren't psychotic? Definately. Those drugs ARE nasty if you aren't psychotic. Thank god I've never suffered from psychosis. But they are literally a lifesaver for people with psychosis and schizophrenia.

    Having spent a couple of weeks in an adolescent psychiatric ward when I was 15 for serious depression and anxiety, I know what its like. It was a very unpleasant experience.

    But it wasnt being in their that sucked, it was how I felt like I was in hell because of my depression. Everyone in their was suffering so much.

    There were 2 girls who heard voices (one who cut herself regularly), a boy who accused the staff of poisoning his ice-cream, and a lot more.
    Those kids needed supervision, and their parents could not cope - otherwise they would be in serious danger.

    If anyone had suggested that anyone in there, including me, wasn't actually mentally ill, that mental illness didn't exist? They would have been told to get fucked.

    My parents did the right thing putting me in there, and when they found out we were smoking weed in there they pulled me out again.
    Turns out my GP knew what I needed - a diff. type of antidepressant.

    Now all I need is to pass my exams!! (And i'd like a new girlfriend. Oh and a different party to run the government.)

  20. duendy Registered Senior Member

    can you 'misinterpret' cancer?
  21. Huwy Secular Humanist Registered Senior Member

    Of course you can misinterpret cancer. Without advanced screening techniques, and even WITH advancing screening techniques, cancer is difficult to find.
    Plus you often need a biopsy to tell exactly what kind of cancer it is.
    Plus cancer has effects on people that aren't fully known.
    Most cancer treatments (e.g. chemo) are horrible, painful, cause weightloss and vomiting. But people choose them cause they often save or prolong life.

    Duendy I found an interesting page on scientology, with many anti-psychiatry comments made by the founder L Ron Hubbard. Turns out some of them "ring a bell" from your posts.

    Here is some from Hubbard:

    HCO Technical Bulletin of 22 July 1956, _Technical Bulletins_, volume 2, first printing 1976, pages 473-474

    "4. We know more about psychiatry than psychiatrists. We can brainwash faster than the Russians (20 secs to total amnesia against three years to slightly confused loyalty).
    "5. We can undo whatever psychiatrists do, even the tougher grade from away back. We therefore can undo a brainwash in 25 to 75 hours."

    Here is another - a funny one!!

    "The mechanism of brainwashing which I gave you, with supercold mechanisms and so forth, is very well known, was used very extensively in the Maw Confederation of the Sixty-third Galaxy. They had a total psychiatric control of all of their officers and executives, and when they got tired of them they used this specific method of brainwashing."

    Wow I'd love to visit the Maw Confederation in the sixty-third galaxy.
    Thats official scientology for you folks! Right from the mouth of the creator.

    Got exams, will have to post the rest after.
  22. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

    Good God. The weasel-word "may" is used to qualify the conclusions on which you would base your conclusions that mental illness is somehow real. This particular abstract is also a good example of either retrograde or truly screwed up science. The indicators mentioned in the abstract are those that were once sought after by people who used biofeedback to gain better concentration and a calmer outlook on life. They were considered healthier than the more common indicators. The "autonomic hypoarousal" is an indication that the patient is calm and centered. In other words, he or she is less mentally agitated. These are supposed to be good things.

    If this is science, we are so screwed. I'm not at all surprised that observable, verifiable realites are turned upside down. That is how I've lived most of my life. I was calm and patient until someone chose to start a fight with me. Then they would keep after me until I was a screaming wreck, no matter what they had to do to achieve that result. Then they accused me of being disruptive in class. This kind of lie they told as a routine. It was on purpose, it was planned, it was part of a pattern. I was not identified as ADD or ADHD only because this was too early to

    Now they are telling us that certain EEG readings tell us that a problem "may" exist. You, Huwy, are then telling me that this means that Thomas Szasz is wrong and is spending his time unwisely. It is no wonder that Duendy doesn't think much of your opinion. Damn. A person should have the right to keep a gun just to defend himself from idiots who want to come in his door and use this kind of psychological "theory" on him. This garbage science is corrosive.

    The placebo effect works on the physician, the teacher, and the parent as well as if not better than it works on the patient. When they get off his back, the kid does a lot better in school. Parents, teachers, and the school bullies are able to induce all sorts of negative behaviors and moods any time that they think it's necessary. They are not always conscious of their intent to do so and they deny the negative effects of what they are doing. If the child is lucky, depending on how you define luck, after he is drugged the teachers take his "disorder" into account and aren't as cruel when he acts out. He acts out less when he is under less stress. Then he gets into fewer fights with his parents because he receives fewer bad reports from the school and hopefully because they believe that his "problem" is being taken care of. The school bullies might find other targets because their actions might be under more scrutiny.

    On the other hand, if the medication makes him noticeably worse, they might decide that the child is a "treatment failure." Somehow this usually falls on the side of deciding that something is wrong with the child, not with the treatment. Then all of the child's persecutors see the need to further "correct" him. Then his "depression" may become severe and he may need "hospitalization."
  23. Huwy Secular Humanist Registered Senior Member

    Hey mate I've been in a psychiatric ward myself.
    EEG is still the main procedure which is commonly used to detect epilepsy - in children aswell as adults.
    This has nothing to do with the "theory" of biofeedback and how it might help people to relax.

    Who is coming to ANYONEs door to use this "theory" on them?
    Anyone? Can you name a single example (where someone hasn't killed someone or set them on fire) where the "men in white coats" COME to someones HOUSE to drug them?
    We are talking about the present here not the 1950s.

    "A person should have the right to keep a gun just to defend himself from idiots who want to come in his door and use this kind of psychological "theory" on him." D
    Dude, are you one of those people that constantly defend the 2nd amendment?

    I'm sorry to hear you were picked on and fought with, so was I.
    Sounds like your problem is with the arsehole teacher/bully who picked on you, and the parents and other teachers who failed to do anything to stop it.

    Just cause you were disruptive in class and didn't like the way you were treated, cause you had arsehole teachers (so did I - I had to change schools), and they ignored you and ignored the real problem,
    what the fuck has that to do with psychiatry?

    Just cause you had a bad experience - at the hands of the people supposed to care for you, why are you applying that to everyone else? Saying the treatment that might save their lives or stop their lives being shit is bullshit?

    Psychology and social work are on the front line of standing up against all the different types of parental abuse.

    I went to school with a guy who I didn't know had adhd. After final year he told me about his problem and said that if it wasnt for the medication he would not have been able to finish his final year of school, let alone the years before that. I remember in primary school everyone thought he was just not very bright, turns out after he was diagnosed with add and started taking medication the quality of his life improved greatly - and he actually ended up doign really well academically and got into university!

    Of course the vast majority of kids don't have adhd, but there are some kids with adhd that seriously injure themselves and others on a regular basis.

    Again, I'm sorry you were picked on at school by bullies or bad teachers, so was I (I'm serious). I'd like nothing better than to seriously kick the shit out of a couple of teachers I had, and a couple of students who picked on me.

    But are you saying all mental illness isn't real? Or are you just saying YOU weren't mentally ill when the bastards picked on you and then pretended it was your fault you got upset?
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2005

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