Science is not God

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Buddha1, Oct 27, 2005.

  1. duendy Registered Senior Member

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  3. Laika Space Bitch Registered Senior Member

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    Duendy, you seem to contradict yourself:
    Or are you suggesting that alzheimers is a biological disease, but not a mental illness?

    You also claim that bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are merely "diverse forms of behaviour". I could possibly think about beginning to contemplate applying this phrase to something like ADHD. But schizophrenia can involve visual, auditory, olfactory and tactile hallucinations. This does not represent simple diversity of behaviour. It can be a debilitating illness. A mental illness.

    The fact that incidence of schizophrenia has a hereditary component, and can also correlate with drug abuse, suggests that the cause of the condition is at least partly biological.
     
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  5. RoyLennigan Registered Senior Member

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    duendy, i think i understand your argument a little better now.

    for one, i think i agree with you on some fine points. but i also think you are taking this argument to the extreme and making a lot of people frustrated with you because of it.

    first of all, if you havent already, you should read that first site i sent you ( http://www.cdhb.govt.nz/totara/brain.htm ) it explains a lot of how the brain acts.

    at the top, the last two aids in a developing psychosis need some explaining:
    "# High levels of stress, eg losing a job, or situations charged with emotion, eg arguments at home, may spark off a psychotic episode
    # The use of drugs such as cannabis (dope), speed ('P', pure, crystal), or hallucinogenics ( LSD, mushrooms, acid, datura) can affect the chemical balance of the brain."
    these two aren't causes of psychosis (as you probably know) but they can lead up to psychosis in a person who already has a genetic or physical susceptability to it. Although, drugs do create a sort of temporary psychosis in that they change the state of the mind by changing the balance of certain chemicals in the brain.

    certain chemicals (i'd wager that every chemical in some way) affect and are affected by the transmission of signals in the brain. this has been proven (though the intricacies are still vague and uncertain). the brain itself develops and releases chemicals into the brain (melatonin, seratonin, dopamine, etc.) which trigger reactions, or are themselves triggers of reactions. not much is known of the subject, but what is known is that the chemicals in the brain are directly related to the mental state of the brain. some of the symptoms of an unbalanced amount of a chemical in the brain are similar to the effects of hallucinogenic drugs. this is because both act in similar ways on the brain. the big difference is that people on drugs eventually come down whereas people with a mental disability are usually stuck with it their entire lives.

    now this is not an explanation that i have come up with after visiting one or two sites, or after just after going to a psychologist. i am on no medication, though i have gone to the shrink a few times in the past. i have read many differing websites describing the processes of the brain. i am only saying here what i have extrapolated time and time again from many different articles and talking to many different people.

    what i do agree with you on is that everyone, including a lot of doctors, make too big a deal about the more general "mental illnesses". ADD/ADHD isn't nearly as debilitating as most think it is. Although i have seen some cases in which it is devastating to the person's personality. But, 'mental illnesses' like this one are largely due to the person's childhood and the environment they grew up in. it is really a combination of the person's childhood and their genetic makeup that contribute to a diagnosis such as ADD. The environment we create directly affects children growing up and learning in it. Because society has changed so much in the past few decades, especially in the past century, we are seeing a larger, and not always good, variation in personality/mentality. This is what many people confuse mental illness with.
     
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  7. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    no it doesn't. what you just stated is not corroborated. it is subjective and not backed up by science....REAL science. have you even bothered to look at the links i forewarded..........? to say someone is prone to 'schizophrenia' cause mum had 'it' etc. is like saying that some one who is sensiive like his great grandfatyher has a 'biological hereditary disease'....yes. an ANTI-senstive culture would spin that. dontbelieve the hype. andplease take time t read the links i sent. Baughman deserves much respect for taking on the might of big pharma and its drug pushin shrinks!
     
  8. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    forgot to mention....the central oath of the Hippocratic Oath is to "DO NO HARM'!
     
  9. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Half of the modern drugs could well be thrown out of the window, except that the birds might eat them.

    --- Martin Henry Fischer
     
  10. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Technology is a way of organising the universe so that man doesn't have to experience it.
    -- Max Frisch
     
  11. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    the birds would not go NEAR them!
    but i know what your choice of quote means
     
  12. duendy Registered Senior Member

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  13. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    ROY nottice how my last post to you cuts out...? many people here usually are very imptiet with my posting skills. well the reason is legion. micro keyboard, limited omputer, internet cuts out....and IFi use te fukin spellchecker, thats what happenes. for i had already finished it and lost the end when i used the spellchecker....so pass it on.)))
    OK the bit i remember which finished off...cause it's important

    i feel Roy your insigyts sometimes only go so far, you dont seem to connect dots. for example, you admit atr the end of your post that environment and upbringing etc etc has to do wit distress and so on, but then strangley say---but one mustn't confuse that with mental illness

    well ...errr yes you MUST. you saying that show your still clinging TO the myth that various forms of 'unacceptable' behaviours are mental illness...

    also you miss HUGE CLUES. where you accept that much of the ADHD issue is overblown--orwhatever term you used. well ROY it is exactly all tat which very much reveals the utter scam going on. if you look at how suddenly the supposed rates of 'ADHD' has grown from a few decades back, it is obvious what is going on. it is the cynical creation of bogus diseases o justify drugging and making vast profiits.....what is also does is --by calling dissent--ie., not fitting into accepatable school insititutins and domestic life, and crap food, drink , parenting, poverty,environemt etc---a biologica disease, tis DEFELCTS attention AWA from te very sysem that is the main cause tis is how the status qou is preserved. in religios times it would inlcude being seen t be 'damned, a heretic' and so on. they have got our children these evil pople, and we need to speak out against tis evil activity. its not some side issue. Read Baughman abot it. his passion to expose the scam was inspired when his child was diagnosed ADHD!!
     
  14. RoyLennigan Registered Senior Member

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    yes, i'm agreeing with you on some points; we've just been arguing for so long i think you don't entirely take me seriously. ADHD has been blown out of proportion. but that doesn't mean that some people don't have such serious cases that they suffer from it. And the state of their psyche may not be entirely determined by the amount/type of chemicals in their brain, but the two have been observed to be directly related. i'm just waiting for you to admit that what people call mental illness is real, regardless of what you call it. but, like many things, the notion of mental illness has been exaggerated and blown out of proportion so much that it seems entirely different from what it really is.

    "for example, you admit atr the end of your post that environment and upbringing etc etc has to do wit distress and so on, but then strangley say---but one mustn't confuse that with mental illness"
    yes, one musn't confuse this with mental illness. many people do think it is a mental illness that could not have been prevented, which it is not. rather, it is just the differentiation of genes and the environment that made you who you are. if you suppress what is unique in yourself, you lose a lot of individuality. i am saying here that a lot of what people call mental illness is really just extreme variety. in this case, it is not mental illness.

    i'm not looking at it in terms of whether it is unnacceptable or not, but rather the quality of life from the victim's point of view. If someone with ADD cannot focus on one thing for less than a minute (and i've seen people like this) then its obvious that they are going to want to take a drug that changes the balance of chemicals in their brain such that they can get more out of life. if this particular person tries the drug and does not like it, then it is their decision not to take it.

    "if you look at how suddenly the supposed rates of 'ADHD' has grown from a few decades back, it is obvious what is going on. it is the cynical creation of bogus diseases o justify drugging and making vast profiits....."
    well, actually its more like the parents of thousands of children have been raising them wrong and they want to find a more legitimate reason why their kid is acting up so they send them to the shrink. the psychiatrist then finds tendancies towards what they believe is ADD (which i bet they could find in almost anyone) and the kid is diagnosed. i think it is an overall problem with society rather than any one part of it.

    btw, i did read those articles, not entirely, but a good chunk of it. i think i've learned something from it, but i also think you are extrapolating more out of it than there really is.
     
  15. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    That's the lamest thing you could possibly say/quote, Buddha1.

    So, what is Hubble space telescope and all the other telescopes out there, particle detectors, accelerators, microscopes, etc?
    We know so much about our Universe exactly because of our technology. And experience too, or how else would I be able to listen to the atmospheric storms of Titan or radio emissions of Saturn? That's an astonishing experience which you can't have sitting in your cave.
     
  16. Laika Space Bitch Registered Senior Member

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    Duendy,

    Alzheimers is not a mental illness? Are you serious?

    From Dictionary.com:

    It certainly seems to qualify to me.

    Nonsense. I expect that personality traits might well be partially genetically-controlled. But there is a world of difference between somebody of a sensitive disposition and somebody who suffers hallucinations or other symptoms of schizophrenia.

    I have read the links you posted. The gist seems to be that because we cannot currently pin down the specific causes of a mental illness, then it must not exist. This viewpoint disregards symptoms and instances of successful treatment. In fact, to me it seems akin to denying that gravity is a force because we don't yet understand its origin.
     
  17. Laika Space Bitch Registered Senior Member

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    638
    Duendy,

    I said:
    You said:
    When you use the term 'science' I'm not sure whether you refer to evil, judgemental, "materialistic" science, or your fluffy, caring, animist philosophy. If the former, here is a reference for you:

    Akira Sawa and Atsushi Kamiya
    Elucidating the pathogenesis of schizophrenia
    BMJ, Sep 2003; 327: 632 - 633

    (Find it here)

    In case you don't take a look, here are some quotes:
     
  18. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    Hey Roy...two points you say stand out

    when you say you have read the links i sent and think i am extrapolating more out of them than there really is. what do you mean?

    second......you seem to be confused as to whati mean by 'mental illness'--tho i am sure i would have made it clear. but heregoes agin. mental illness as itis being indoctrinated by this culture--'pharmacratic' culture (Thomas Szasz) is 'biological disease of the brain'. we are saying no it isn't if there is no evidence of organic lesion/growth.
    all reports OF brain damage due to 'menal illness' are POST-medication', and the damage ahs been done BY the so-called medication which is harmful.

    yes i am aware tat peopl can be mentally distressed. really it is not just 'mental'. it is bodymind distressed. yes we agree. wat are we going to do wit say the child who is seeming very over active and is driving his prents nuts. is it a case of druggging the child and causing MORe harm--to the immediate results MA seem benign--ie for parents and teachers etc. OR are we going to look at food, drink, the school system, the community, the capacity of thechild, etc etc ? THAT. Not make up a ruddy phony disease and then harm te child. NO!
     
  19. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    in sciene---if you are going to play by its rules. UNLESS there is evidence it is NOT proven. so why is it you want to change the goalposts for soemthingasserious as mental illness??
     
  20. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    look Laika Laika...for one, your quotes aren't showing te quotes ...and number two. tisis gettin tedious. you are not digging what isbeing said be me, and more importantly by someone MUCh more expert abput all of ths, Dr Buaghman. what MORE can we do

    so look. i suggest this. like i have suggested to others who just want to go on and on an dont seem to absorb what is being said. take your worries TO Baughman. he is pporachabale, tho is busy on a book at the moment. maybe transfer your communications to here.
    This IS a very very coontreversal subject i know. at one forum, Entheogen.com i went 99 posts withan antagonist....very tiring and i STILL doubt he was convinced. soi have dont my bit her for now. howeve i am willin to debate about it with someone hwo seems to understand what is being said

    when science is not God--the subject of tis thread could go onto other tings. though it's tru this issue is CENTRAL tio sciences dominance. mainly because it can tell you you are a a mere cybernetic mchine who when getting weird experiences needs 'mending' by the very selfsame evil fukers pullinyer strings....!

    look further afield gilfried, broaden your inquiry and start seeing interconnecting patterns
     
  21. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    When I posted the quote, I had only instinctively known it to be true, and I had not cared to find out how!

    Your post made me think about how. I couldn't immediately find an answer. But it came later.

    Seeing the physical aspect of the universe is not the same as experiencing it.

    I remember, whenever I try to capture special events (e.g. a beautiful sunset or my nephew learning to talk!) on camera --- I always fail to experience that moment. So much so that I had to consciously decide not to take pictures when I want to really experience. something.

    I've always lived in a big city. I have so few friends here who have time to share life with me. I have my T.V. and computer which keep me busy all the time. Technology has made it possible for me to chat with someone who lives thousands of miles away and I have no chance to meet, but it takes me away from those who are near me, including my family members with whom I hardly have the time to communicate with except for the basic minimum.

    In contrast when I went to live in a small mountanous town I really experienced life for the first time. I had so much time for myself. I made several friends with whom I could just take daily strolls meaninglessely and felt so belonged. Lots of people knew each other in that small town and it felt so nice greeting them all on the way to the market.

    Technology does stop you from experiencing life. A man in the cave could instinctively feel one with the universe without really knowing as much as "outer facts" as we do.
     
  22. Laika Space Bitch Registered Senior Member

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    Duendy,

    If you can't read the quotes, follow the link to the journal instead.

    You said "look to Indigenous cultures and how they respect visionary experience. "

    Why is such stock so regularly placed in the pre-scientific beliefs of primitive cultures? Presumably you also subscribe to their creation and astronomical myths, right Duendy?

    You also said "i am willin to debate about it with someone hwo seems to understand what is being said ".

    You seem to be confusing incomprehension with disagreement. Please do not think that I don't understand your message. I just think it's absurd.

    "when science is not God--the subject of tis thread could go onto other tings."

    Of course science is not God. Science is the best method we have to separate true insight from the wealth of pre-scientific dross such as vision-derived 'wisdom'.

    Just to clarify, do you deny that:
    Alzheimers is a mental illness?
    The British Medical Journal represents "REAL science"?
     
  23. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    Hey Laika....sheeeit dont know what your doing to your reply boxes but i went to reply in it, and had more problems. couldn't post it

    ok, again, trying to remember what i had said

    yes, i do respect our Indigenous worldwide
    ancestors insights, wisdom, etc. And i am aware howmany of them were/aretreated by hostile bullying invaders, colonialists,slavetraders, exploiters. am VERY aware of that. and same mindset is workin on extincting more and more species etc. meanwhile tis same over-powering sysem --scientiic materialism struts its stuff and oppressively tells people what reality is. how only its scientific method can detect the truth, etc etc. it is a religion when it becomes tat. look up 'scientism'!.....and if your whole bodymind very much disagrees and may have self-healing visions due to thismoppression and its environemtal fall out, such as breakdown in community, itswar on drugs, war on terror, WAR on tis that, WAR, illega wars etc etc--they call tis 'dissent' or 'maladaptive behaviour' mental illness and then drug it
     

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