Science is not God

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Buddha1, Oct 27, 2005.

  1. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    Treatment that "might" keep their lives from becoming shit IS bullshit. Let me know when they know for sure, instead of believing that it "might" work.

    One of our civil rights that has gone missing is the right to call bullshit on popular bullshit. As I've already said, drugs seem to do more work on the people who want you to take them than on the people who are taking them. For whatever reasons, when parents actually expect better behavior from a child, they get it. I was pretty much intractable because my mother was a psycho bitch from Hell.

    Do you think that I don't believe in mental illness because I don't believe in the ADD and ADHD diagnoses? "Psycho bitch from Hell" is definitely mental illness. It is a form of insanity in which the mother either kills her children or makes them wish that they were dead. Which one of those describe me, anyway? A person has to be able to escape the grind.

    I cannot believe that children who, unprovoked, are climbing the walls and disrupting class are the same group who are shown to have more alpha and delta waves and greater coherency between the hemispheres. These are people who can concentrate and if you know how to work with them and give them credit for having minds, they tend to have greater intelligence.

    Mental agitation can be covered up by getting high or getting hopped up. I just about wet my pants when I found out that my nephew was being kept on 20 milligrams of amphetamines, and he weighs less than 100 pounds. I'd be afraid that a dose like that would kill me outright, and I weigh over 200.

    Let's not confuse treatment of mental illnesses or disorders with attempts to maintain people in some sort of politically correct mental state while in hostile environments. I hope that you, Huwy, do not believe that a person is "paranoid" if he thinks that there are threats against his life when there are actual threats. That's what the psychologist actually told me, that the fact that there were actual threats didn't make a difference. I was paranoid.
     
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  3. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    Also, Huwy, you bet your ass I am one of those who defend the 2nd Amendment. Guns should only be handed over to the government ammunition first. Of course, no one seems to be into defending their right except nutjobs, so I only do it where they don't bother to come looking for me when I do it. Isn't this a wonderful brave new world?
     
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  5. RoyLennigan Registered Senior Member

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    yeah, it happens.
     
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  7. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Those who stand to gain, or are on the better side of oppressive systems (including religion, science or heterosexuality) will not easily change their opinion or stand. Surprisingly those who are supporting science, hardly care about arguing their case with a scientific/ logical bent of mind.

    I think those of you who feel very strongly about mental illness as an issue (for whatever its worth) are only banging your head against a wall. Because when people don't want to acknowledge things because the status quo suits them fine, there is not much you can do apart from 'fight' on with words!

    Wouldn't it perhaps be better to go from larger, macro issues (like the fallibility of science or psychology) to micro ones (like mental illness). It's easy to prove the macro issues through logical analysis. Once they are established, the micro ones would be a cinch.

    But perhaps you guys should also be willing to admit that there are some genuine cases of mental handicap -- and I don't know if psychologists have much role in its treatment. But yes psychological derangement is a grey area!
     
  8. RoyLennigan Registered Senior Member

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    1,011
    i agree with these point of views. i think a lot of the conflict in this thread is due to misunderstanding. it seems to me that science is a logical step forward, but the majority of the population isnt really ready for that kind of thinking. human society, especially a society like america, is based around capitalist-like ideas; survival of the fittest. those who are strong want to oppress the weak. but for science to work as it was meant to be, there must be full cooperation, which is impossible in the state of current society. nothing is ever perfect, so i think there is still something missing to the scientific method, or any perception of the world.
     
  9. Huwy Secular Humanist Registered Senior Member

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    890
    I'm sorry to hear your mother was a psycho bitch Metakron.
    My dad is a bit of a psycho prick himself, but thankfully he lives in another state of Australia.
    But I still have totally mixed feelings about him, he was so critical of me as a child - verbally abusive, it took a lot of counselling to understand. Now I just feel sorry for him.
    A lot of my mental illness has been genetically inherited from him - statistics support that inheritance is a major factor in serious mental illness.

    So there's no way I'd put a kid like you were on meds, but there are still kids who are climbing walls and breaking limbs and injuring family members in tantrums.
    It has been shown that in serious genuine cases of adhd, frontal lobe activity is diminished, hence the ability to concentrate or control behaviour.

    My only concern is helping them with their suffering, i dont give a shit what teachers or shitty parents think.
    Obviously the main problem is the school system (which sucks even more in america btw.), bad teachers and bad parents. That should always be dealt with first.


    """Treatment that "might" keep their lives from becoming shit IS bullshit. Let me know when they know for sure, instead of believing that it "might" work"""

    Well I for one was in a hospital, as I said, and medication is the primary reason I have not topped myself, have finished high school, am now at university, and am able to live a healthy life. I know at least half a dozen other people in the same boat.

    Shame about the statistics showing guns kept in the house are more likely to be used on family members than an "intruder".
    The gun related homicide rate in america is the highest in the world, its ridiculously out of proportion, even with canada, who own more guns.

    Besides, having all those guns hasn't helped you with the oppressive government you've got at the moment has it? With the Patriot act?
    You know your government is thinking about bringing back "the draft"?
     
  10. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    your shame-asi see it is, that despite your life experience, yet you still stubbornly adhere to a myth which oppresses millions of children and further damages them through the--usually--coercive toxic-drug regime

    again and again i have urged you to contact Dr Baughman to put you straight about your delusionsregarding 'ADHD'...have you yet? or dare you not, cause you dont want to face the truth?.....surely one question to the man wony hurt will it? if you dont ask you dont learn!
     
  11. RoyLennigan Registered Senior Member

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    1,011
    stop clouding your own judgement with immature conclusions. you dont know all the facts. you dont know what you are talking about. please stop wasting people's time and threadspace on this useless argument that is going nowhere. i know you are too stubborn to persuade, so just drop the subject and keep on topic.
     
  12. Huwy Secular Humanist Registered Senior Member

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    890
    OK, How can science NOT be god, if god doesn't exist?

    And how do people expect others to react, when after thousands of years of civilisation (well, sort of) along comes a belief system which ACTUALLY EXPLAINS some things - not ALL things, mind you, but explains SOME things.
    How does that not shit all over the idea of "god"? who never existed in the first place?
     
  13. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    If God doesn't exist, then nothing can be God. If anything could be God, then God would exist in some form. Does that explain it, Huwy?

    So a belief system explains some things by postulating a cause and giving it a name. It is the beginning of a bad mental habit. It is not helpful. At least when we are talking about something like falling objects, our mythical cause does one basic thing that is well defined and in a well-defined manner. It isn't all-purpose, all knowing, omni-intelligent, or able to leap tall pyramids in a single bound. It is just a force whose actions we can predict mathematically. It is not a catch-all for everything that we can't explain.
     
  14. Huwy Secular Humanist Registered Senior Member

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    You agree, cause your also an atheist.

    I just don't think this argument is going anywhere. No-one is willing to budge.
     
  15. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    and all that ISN@t taking up space? i mean what exactly have you said there except 'boo hoo your wrong i am right'?
    i am clear in my postin. 'science is god' isn't referring to what has been termed 'Frontier science'--science which is challenging materialistic science, but materialsitic science which pretendsto able to tell us ontologically what life is trough scientific method. thus it dictatesto us that we are mere machines, and tat te sole purpose of life is consumerism and following its authority.

    understand?
     
  16. Huwy Secular Humanist Registered Senior Member

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    890
    Well I'm sorry it makes you feel like a machine dude.
    Personally gaining an understanding into the human body, and the complex and wonderful ways it works has enriched my life and increased my appreciation of life.
     
  17. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585
    so you say, but your still stuck in the mythmof mental illness. no budging you........
    look, of course i dont discount analysis. of materialsticlly analyzing ature. yip. but that now is shown to be limited for many many reasons some of them very very very serious. like errrr thr continual trashing of Nature.
    so we are not just throwing away insight of materialistic science. we are saying it is LIMITED. let's move on
     
  18. RoyLennigan Registered Senior Member

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    1,011
    no, apparently you don't understand. science dictates nothing about how one should live. some scientists tell others how they should live, but science is just theories based on real facts. the facts are interpreted by the scientists into theories, the theories are interpreted by philosophers and other people. everything but the actual solid evidence is pure conjecture. you're just looking too much into that conjecture to actually see what the numbers mean. stop worrying about what everyone says and actually look at what the facts mean.

    i'm just sick of hearing your gimmick about how all psychology is fake and the illuminati is conspiring to take over the world. get over it, really. if you actually believe this stuff then dig up some solid evidence and make a new thread about it. stop spamming other threads with your conspiracy theories.

    if you were any kind of scientist, you would know that science is not about telling others how they should do anything. it is about observing and recording those observations so that everyone can see them and interpret them. models are made from these interpretations of data which describe the real world system. if the model does not accurately predict a real world situation, then it is discarded and a new model is developed.

    you obviously know there are people out there, some of whom call themselves scientists, who will overlook data or lie to get the model they want. the scientific method cannot change the nature of humanity. humans will always do what they think is the best for themselves, which is almost never the best for others.

    we don't know everything. we never will. most (if not all) of what we do is useless or ingnorant. the scientific method is only a label for a way of observing reality that has proven reliable for finding the truth (as far as we can percieve it). this method is tied to the structure of our brain. we will always strive to find the absolute truth; the scientific method is just a description of this. science will evolve as our perception of the universe evolves.

    P.S. you are never clear on your point duendy, a good start to gaining credibility would be to learn how to type better.
     
  19. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585
    hmmmmmm....we are talking about 'science is not god' yeah?
    what do you feel such a topic may be about then?...it is wanting to explore how our presnt paradigm is, right? and it is built on science. materilist science which DISPIRITS Nature...THAT is te crux. dont be so naive as tink the activity of science is not intimately linked wit te State and all its institutions

    it annoys you i speak out against its myth of mental illness? tough....i am free lik you here to speak my mind. ifnot i get thrown off. you haven't thepower, thank god
    and it pisses you off i speak out about te Illuminati? wating to seriously examine what even Big Media cant be arsed to do...cause err, you know who owns it dont you you savvy scientist you...? guess?....well tough

    summary. materialistic scince which when used as religion becomes sciencism is up States arse. that close. it is oppression like previousparadigm was oppression. people are suffering. Nature issuffering. cause it is seen as 'dead'..commodity, real estate, theme park, profit

    mateialstic science is used as thejustification for tis attitude. cause it is the god, along with profit
     
  20. RoyLennigan Registered Senior Member

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    ignorance of the consequences is the only cause for those things, not materialistic science. humans still, and will for a long time, have a nature that causes them to desire conflict. what are you really arguing against? the actual people who are causing these conflicts, or the beliefs they have twisted to support themselves?

    you should start a thread on these theories of yours i would really like to see the reasoning behind them.
     
  21. Huwy Secular Humanist Registered Senior Member

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    890
    It dispirits nature? How so?
    If you mean it takes the spirit away? or degrades the spirit?
    Do you think it takes "the magic" away?
    Seriously, you sound like a witch doctor or something. It suprises me you even use a computer.

    Science does not take the sanctity of nature away, it is still just as precious, if not more precious than ever! Just because it can be explained doesnt mean its no longer beautiful.
    (Having been to England once I can't say there is much beatiful nature there anyway. Its always grey and cloudy.)


    take a look at environmental science, a whole field promoting conservation and preservation of natural environments and habitats.

    Are you saying knowledge about, for example, photosynthesis takes away the "magic" and the "wonder" from plants and flowers? That's your problem.

    If anyone is damaging the environment its big business and industry.
    So what should the state be linked with? Religion? Let me tell you the religious conservatives are running politics in the USA, the UK, AUstralia at the moment.
    The state is linked with religious neo-conservatives.


    """dont be so naive as tink the activity of science is not intimately linked wit te State and all its institutions"""

    Yeh deh whitey gon come lock up all deh brothers an shit - just for doin some graffiti "art"!!

    As I said, it would annoy you duendy If I spoke out against the "myth" of "african poverty", i'm sure you'd find that highly ignorant and disrespectful.

    How are people suffering? 1 in 5 people suffer from some form of mental illness in their lifetime, thats not an exaggerated statistic.
    How are you being OPPRESSED??
     
  22. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    5,502
    Science does not take any of the wonder away. Abuse of science does. I did not acquire hardness of feeling from science. I got it from right-wing religious conservatives, and I am working against that.

    Abuse of science can even include forcing people to adhere too rigidly to a subset of scientific concepts. Real science deals with what is actually there, not with what the priesthood decides is there and teaches people to expect to be there.
     
  23. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    errr that's thereason for THIs thread. we dont need a new thread. look Roy, tepoint is not some 'naufhty' people twisting 'good materiliastic science'. it IS materialstic science i am challenging! IT.
     

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