# SciContest! Why can't matter be made of photons?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by BenTheMan, Aug 11, 2008.

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1. ### ReikuBannedBanned

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Let me try ben.

The motion of the photons, erratic as they are, can still make up spatial freedom inside an atom. If we can deal with infinitesimal units of strings in string theory, just shows how much space a fundamental particle can take up. Even in the confinements of a particle with rest mass.

3. ### Janus58Valued Senior Member

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Why matter can not be made up of photons.

Argument:

The radius of the Electron is less than 10^-13 m
The mass of the Electron is 9.1e-31 kg
The energy equivalence of the mass of an electron is 8.14e-14 joules
The wavelength of a single photon with the energy equivalence of the mass of an electron is 2.43e-12 m, about 10 times the diameter of the electron.

Ergo, for an electron to be made up of a single photon, it would have to be made up of something larger than its own diameter.

Trying to have the electron being made up of more than one photon makes the problem worse. Each photon would have to have a fraction of the energy equivalence of the electron, and as the energy of a photon decreases, its wavelength increases.

5. ### VernRegistered Senior Member

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Ok this thread is supposed to be to show that matter can not be composed of photons alone. The only evidence of that that I've found in the last 20 years is that you can't make a nutrino out of a one-photon particle. It would have to be charged; and it is not.

But that is the only thing. And there might be some way to do it that we just don't yet know.

7. ### BenTheManDr. of Physics, Prof. of LoveValued Senior Member

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Vern---you are invited to poke holes in arguments, but not to advance any of your theories.

8. ### ReikuBannedBanned

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''Case Nine: The electron has no solid core. All attempts to measure a size for an electron that is smaller than its classic electron diameter have shown that there is nothing there. This indicates that an electron only exists at its electromagnetic diameter. This would naturally and necessarily be the case if the electron were a one-photon particle. There is no philosophically sound alternative.''

9. ### BenTheManDr. of Physics, Prof. of LoveValued Senior Member

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Ahh GREAT argument Janus---I hadn't thought of this one. Entry #7.

10. ### BenTheManDr. of Physics, Prof. of LoveValued Senior Member

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Reference? What is the lower limit on the electron radius?

11. ### VernRegistered Senior Member

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All attempts to measure an Electron size smaller than its electromagnetic radius failed to find anything. It is a stretch to claim this means the electron is smaller. We can just as easily say the electron only exists at its electromagnetic radius and so it is the largest of the elementary particles.

12. ### ReikuBannedBanned

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The photon is a minimum sized packet of energy. I don't even think there are any sizes to the photon, because it's so very small. At least with an electron, we have a mathematical size for it, which may be even smaller. But surely can't be larger than a photon, since an electron with mass must have a structure that is larger than a photon.

Ben,

13. ### VernRegistered Senior Member

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Ok BenTheMan; I'll try my best not to get my own ideas involved; but I don't have any theories. Just know a few facts

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Reference?

15. ### BenTheManDr. of Physics, Prof. of LoveValued Senior Member

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I want an experiment, or a paper that I can read, that says "The lower limit on the electron radius is..."

16. ### ReikuBannedBanned

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He's right Ben. All attempts to measure the electrons radius have failed miserably. Only a few years back i was reading a paper that expressed that the electron is best to be said not to have a structure at all.

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thank you

18. ### ReikuBannedBanned

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Here it says it has never been determined exactly.

Diameter, Radius of an Electron"The radius of the electron has not been determined exactly but it is known to be less than 1 × 10-13 cm", < 10-15 m. "Ro = 2.82 × 10-13 cm", 2.82 × 10-15 m ...
hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/DannyDonohue.shtml - 7k - Cached - Similar pages

19. ### ReikuBannedBanned

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And another one

Mystery & History: Electron radius22 Jul 2008 ... classical electron radius" is 2.8179 × 10−15 m. This is the radius that is inferred from the electron's electric charge, ...
www.cateringme.com/2008/07/electron-radius.html - 68k - Cached - Similar pages

20. ### VernRegistered Senior Member

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The present lower limit of the electron radius was established by a physicist at MIT who failed to find anything larger then 10 -16 cm and so concluded that the electron must be smaller. That is bad logic.

21. ### BenTheManDr. of Physics, Prof. of LoveValued Senior Member

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This is exactly consistent with what Janus said, no?

22. ### VernRegistered Senior Member

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We do know for sure that there is something about the electron that exists at its electromagnetic radius. We don't KNOW any other electron size that exists.

23. ### ReikuBannedBanned

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Not quite. I do believe the link continues to say that the electron is pointlike by current theory, and therefore any radius cannot be measured.