Scholar Says ....

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Tiassa, May 13, 2020.

  1. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,185
    What a great day, more biscuits and horsepuckery...mmm can I say horsepuckery ..now that I have do I need to say it again...well no but may I...and how pleasant it will be to find out what it means...but you know a great word when you can say it over and over such that it fills you with joy as you wonder how you could use it in conversation during the day..why I am driven to send a text to someone and suggest some inoccent horsepuckery or can you only say horsepucky..no matter things evolve and here is the proof.

    And I did seek yet another packet of biscuits for the ones that I had previously sort were no more and all the while not thinking of those that may come after, which did, as they do, for there will always be another packet of biscuits and even though few consider such a proposition as apparent it rarely is embraced say half way through any earlier pack.

    But having sought and found my biscuits I won't stop thinking about my next pack of biscuits.

    Hmmmm not mind bending for me I see straight thru that shit...pretentious..only if you elevate it to a place it should never be..but no doubt it was, indeed it is...and to think there are folk who think such crap is profound, that it deserves something by way of recognition...now Tiassa if you had written it that would be different ..but at least you could have...you did right? Did you invent that author and use your invention to write some...stuff.

    Look what I am saying is we, and by we I mean..me., want your works, not someone from the past drowning in their dribble.

    Alex
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
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  3. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Ditto for this we

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  5. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    All my biscuits are now gone ...all I have left is a packet of violet crumble (bite size pieces..very refined as is the sugar) a packet of licorice the plain stuff..none of that fancy licorice for me, two tubs of mango pieces in jelly, all sharing the benefit of no cooking or preparation and perfect for events involving horse.... damn it forgotten that word...I just thought of a word..confuggery...now if only we can fit it into an important persons speech...

    I tell you Mr speaker we on this side of the house will not tolerate such confuggery...it sounds like something a politician would do..Hardley appropriate for a traffic offence..He was pulled over for confuggery..no just won't do...now I think it would work for religion...they were all fooled by the pastors confuggery, ...anyways let's patent it and get it out there.

    Working like a dog here..no I don't mean I have been licking my.... how could you think such a thing. New batteries installed plenty of fridge power and can now buy icecream and even meat if any money left after the icecream.

    The harder I work the more time I spend here...is that irony or what?

    Alex
     
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  7. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    I hope you both realise that the Lord cannot be petitioned . . .
     
  8. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Good day everyone, no toilet paper to be had but give our thanks to the bidet or should I say bidi.

    'Tis a pleasure to read of one who seeks and then finds only to stop his search...bidi bida, it's magic. To the one it's a word game, to the other it's a puzzle.

    It's a small pleasure, a little pleasure, and ity bidi pleasure for sure but a pleasure nevertheless to read ones words aloud, even if no one else is reading it's still a pleasure.

    From the basement to the towers of ivory 'tis such a pleasure to read and repeat one's own words. Shall I seek, no I believe, case closed, yanow...

    Footnotes to come and let's have some fun with them, cay?
     
  9. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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  10. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I use foot notes..on my feet..left and right.
    Alex
     
  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    I have real foot notes

    On the liner on the way here to Australia I became friends with a tattooist

    Just before I joined the Airforce I had my name tattooed on the bottom of both feet and on one date of birth and other blood group

    Done for free as he had never done on that part before

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  12. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    I think some people think that a tedious writing style makes them somehow more "literary". It's a mistake IMO.
     
  13. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Agree

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  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Well in the group they see themselves a part of that may even be the case.
    My view is to write using language that even a child will understand.
    For me I try to have as wide a group as possible understand what I am saying.. I have done the hard yards at the pointy end ..rewriting the judges notes into what one expects in that area...however when I went into real estate I had to change my vocabulary to be understood by a very wide group and to do that I found using the most simple words gives you the best chance of being understood. However I do enjoy a well developed style but often wonder how many give up half way thru because often a good style requires full attention and looking out for hidden meanings, play on words and very dry humour.
    A problem I face is everyone I talk to speak Australian .. you tend to forget grammar etc. Finally you end up writing as you (others) speak.
    Alex
     
  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    That's good to know..I will be able to spot you in a crowd.
    Alex
     
  16. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    It's more to identify me if dead or unconscious

    If you can spot me in a crowd and I can spot you I will wave my foot at you

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  17. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    I can understand Faulkner but I don't read him, too annoying. I went to law school for one year (before switching to a different program) and had to brief many cases every day. I wouldn't try to carry that style of writing over to any other field.

    There is the style used in academic research. It is an annoying style, overly verbose and filled with terms of art but it serves a purpose.

    On the other hand, a style of writing that is long-winded, vague, largely meant to pump up the writer's ego, is just useless. It's like an unknown person giving a speech and implying that he was well known, famous, accomplished and the only thing the audience is thinking is "What are you again?".
     
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,185
    I found I could not make a simple statement without tiresome qualification.

    In real estate I learnt to say as little as possible ... And my favorites reply was " I am only the agent if you need expert advice ask your builder, lawyer, electrician, bank, etc.
    Yes for other folk but it is often not about others.
    Alex
     
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  19. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Could you get something on your forehead... that will make things easier.
    Are you back?
    Alex
     
  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Head to sloped back to be of use unless you positioned near overhead

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    NO

    Girlfriend has taken calling this period Honeymoon

    Don't think so

    Help

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  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Well everyone needs someone to peel their grapes. I am lucky I don't need my grapes peeled and I have found plastic plates are affordable but I still like eating straight from the frying pan or pot.
    But I am saving the laundry in case I meet the right one.
    Alex
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Twenty years ago.

    Here's something about evolution: Some changes don't occur unless they must. Never mind; it's a tangent. Twenty years ago I was working the same↗ jokes↗, building the same argument↗, I still use today. Actually, that last also points back to a 1999 version↗. But the later iteration of those two old threads includes a particular detail, which is information from a book by Jeffrey Burton Russell, an American historian and theologian who wrote a five-volume history of the Devil.

    In the first posting↗, you can even see me withholding my own opinion, in doing so, a rhetorical form that hasn't aged well. But at the same time, it's true that back then I was building↗ the arguments↗ I still↗ use↗ today↗. And, well, something, something, mumble, murumur, really didn't age well↗.

    But Russell's work has been there, influencing how I perceive the historical record of Christianity, for twenty years.

    And this post isn't really about him.

    †​

    Not quite twenty years ago↗, I mentioned Elaine Pagels, and her book, The Origin of Satan, "which is part of a freaky coincidence" I passed over explaining. Nor do I see that I ever got back 'round to it, but I'm not looking that hard. I was just looking for the first reference.

    The story starts a handful of years before that, when raiding the catalog for a paper in a class on Christian history. Because friends and I perceived stakes in the ongoing music censorship arguments, and had listened to plenty of "Satanic" heavy metal in our time, the journal article about Satan—irrelevant to my needs in the moment—caught my eye. And it's true, I didn't really understand enough about religion as an historical question to comprehend the full implication of the article, but, sure, at least my time with Satanism and then witchcraft prepared me for the idea that Satan was a weird, superstitious construction.

    Fast-forward several years. I can't help but notice: Satan, again. And, oh, hey, wait a minute, why does that name seem familiar? And when I picked up the book, and looked at the table of contents, well, there it was. The article, "The Social History of Satan", had become the second chapter of Pagels' 1995 examination of The Origin of Satan.

    And there we have our freaky coincidence. Nor is it insignificant. As I recall, the most serious, as such, book on Christianity in my collection at the time was a '92 reissue of the English translation of Barthel's What The Bible Really Says°. Most of the rest had to do with witchcraft and postrenaissance magickal philosophy and metaphysics.

    †​

    These scholars have provided powerful, influential work, are two of the three brightest stars illuminating my understanding of Christianity in history. And it's true, Russell is both affable and sometimes pretentious; his earlier survey of witchcraft demonstrated well his talents, but was permeated throughout with apparent Christianist prejudice. I mention it because it feels like it has a reference point, a low-key, slowburning version of a Hobbesian contempt toward the witches who get what they deserve. And Russell is really weird about the point that he would rather, instead of his historical survey of the Devil, be known for his survey of Heaven in Christian thought, and the one about how tales of Christian flat-earth belief was a ninetenth-century anti-Christian conspiracy.

    Oh, right. This isn't about him.

    Except when it is.

    No, really, the Devil volumes are extraordinary work.

    †​

    This landed with me just last week, from Elaine Pagels' 2018 memoir:

    Back, then, to Satan. How to start? I began exploring a handful of stories in the Hebrew Bible, in apocryphal Jewish sources, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and in writhgs of Jesus's followers, to see how, some two thousand years ago, various people had spun the figure of Satan out of their own conflict and pain. How, then, did this figure of Satan originate? Who invented him, and why? ....

    .... What first surprised me was to see that Satan does not appear in the Hebrew Bible—not, at least, as Christians and Muslims know him, as an evil supernatural power. Christians who identify the snake in Paradise as Satan actually are projecting a far more recent invention into that ancient story, since the Genesis folktale pictures the serpent only as a cunning, talking snake, perhaps a stand-in for the humans' inner voice. A handful of stories in the Hebrew Bible do speak of a supernatural character they call "the satan"—a name that characterizes his role as an "adversary," but in these stories he acts more like a strorytelling device than a dangerous enemy. As in the story of Job, his prsence often marks misfortune, a setback, or a twist in the plot. But before the first century CE, groups of dissident Jews, including Jesus's followers, began to turn this rather unpleasant angel into the far more powerful, malevolent figure whom Christians and Muslims see as personifying evil, making war on God and humankind alike.

    Reading a book by Jeffrey Burton Russell, who has written five books on the devil and his origin, I was stopped by one sentence: "The figure of Satan has nothing to do with social history." Impossible! I thought; that's obviously wrong. People who take Satan seriously, whether thousands of years ago or today, aren't simply imagining ethereal spirits clashing in the stratosphere. Anyone who says, for example, that "Satan is trying to take over this country," has in mind certain people right here on the ground, seen as Satan's agents—and likely could give you names and addressses!

    That misguided sentence spurred me to write what I privately—and ironically—called "the social history of Satan." How, after all, could an imaginary being have a social history? But I'd begun to see that Satan does—and wanted to track it down. Why were Christians writing about Satan? How do they associate him with certain people, and who are those people? What practical difference does it make to put Satan into a story?


    (155-157)

    There are, throughout her book, any number of small affirmations that only make sense, not so much just to me, but to a limited range of discourse. My bit on Job, for instance, wasn't affirmed, but, rather, educated.

    Nonetheless, the Russell reference was a, stop reading and go pour a beer so you can raise a glass, moment. Talk about guilty pleasures; I really can't explain how absurdly perfect those paragraphs felt. And, no, I'm not special. Rather, it just worked out that way, a nearly perfect coincidence, revealed these years later, so instrumental to the value of a freaky coincidence once upon a time.

    Or, in a less solipsistic world, there's someone out there I can share a joke with, except no, really, I can't; it's just not practical. Still, though, she somehow managed to share it with me, even having no idea she was doing so. In a certain way, that would charm her perception of the Universe, and that seems like it should be enough.

    Still, there really aren't so many who could appreciate the magnitude of that intersection 'twixt Russell and Pagels, occurring before I knew who either of them were, nor what I was getting into that one day when pulling sources for something about archaeology and death cult in the Levant and happened to notice the bit about about Satan in a search return. After all, it's just me; that value is an internalized measurement. But the day Pagels flared at Russell is fundamental to my understanding of history, with the greater period of that study noted occasionally at Sciforums.

    It's not so much that I could chortle through the moment and say, "Of course it was Russell!" but, rather that the moment was so recursive, encompassing the whole of an identifiable period in my intellectual growth. That is, cheap, self-indulgent jokes are easy finds. But this? Learning is supposed to be its own reward. Experiential gems like this are rare in these adventures. It isn't just that I can make the joke; the X marked at the intersection of Pagels and Russell signifies a treasure of utterly subjective value, but, generally speaking, this really is an extraordinary example of its kind.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    ° From which I learned of the painting detailed above: The Virgin Spanking the Christ Child before Three Witnesses: Andre Breton, Paul Eluard, and the Painter, by Max Ernst, 1926.​

    Pagels, Elaine. Why Religion? New York: Ecco, 2018.
     
  23. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    In case you are confused Xelasnave 1947, 20 years ago "we" we talking about Satan, and now we're talking about Satan again. OK, carry on...
     

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