Scholar Says ....

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Tiassa, May 13, 2020.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Detail: Corpus Hypercubus, by Salvador Dali, 1954.

    The scholar summarizes:

    He complained that "they're always quoting Jesus's saying, 'Seek and you shall find,'" but "they never find anything, since they're looking where there's nothing to find."

    True, 'tis but a summary, but it takes considerable talent to suss that out of pretentiously mindbending horsepucky. (Okay, what it really needs is just a little patience.)

    We'll work the citation into a later post. Let's have some fun.
     
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  3. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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  5. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Ok, to the one, let's have a little fun, to the other, ya'know, what are you talking about? True, 'tis just a summary. I'm patient.
     
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  7. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    "For the glory of the Kingdom of Heaven lies all around ye, and ye see it not".

    --J.C.
     
  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Could it be possible not seen because of its non existence?

    ?
     
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  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    No no no no...err yes.
    I am waiting with excited expectation for Taissa's next post...he did mention fun..fun and foot notes I expect.
    I could read his stuff all day..well it usually takes a day at least.
    Most entertaining and although it would take me much effort to construct a post of his quality I like to think it comes easy to him.
    Anyways it will be worth the wait.
    Sheer brilliance.
    Alex
     
  10. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    I will buy the book when it hits Amazon.
     
  11. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    "Tis" also fun to wait. To the one it will be fun and to the other "brilliant". No one will know what motivated him to post and no one will know what he posted but there will be footnotes galore and that's always nice, "ya know".

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    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  12. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    And she'll have fun fun fun
    'Til her daddy takes the T-bird away
    (Fun fun fun 'til her daddy takes the T-bird away)

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  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I actually enjoy the foot notes and I don't care about their relevance..it is like reading something in Wiki and clicking on everything in blue...you start off researching say black holes and end up miles away reading about medieval cross bows.

    The one hand or the other done well, as Tiassa certainly pulls off, is a great way to state your point twice in effect ...you can appear to be presenting alternatives but if you are careful you can limit the alternative to simply offer different ways to present your point. But it is a trade mark I do enjoy.

    Anyways I have a packet of biscuits ready ... he should write a book ...although I am not sure that my fascination guarantees a wide market acceptance.
    Alex
     
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  14. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    Wait, so this isn't the thread of things Jesus said?
    Am I wandering through the wrong valley here?

    At my feet lies my foot, notes man.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  15. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    The scholar - no name given as to who scholar is

    He - who?

    they're - who?

    find - what?

    they - who?

    there's nothing to find - doubtful, just not the undefined find

    Fun - undetermined

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  16. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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  17. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Not having fun yet

    Wait, so this isn't the thread of things Jesus said?

    Looks like a "Can you workout what this thread will become?" thread

    I know of the movie

    Not sure how it relates to the thread

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  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I could not wait any longer..I ate my biscuits.
    Alex
     
  19. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Well that makes thee and me at least two sensible people in the thread

    Although I have some doubts about thee

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  20. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Do you have any idea what that means?
     
  21. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    The scholar complained. "They" quote Jesus, then "they" never find anything. Are they the same they?
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    The topic quote is a comment on Tertullian, who wrote in the second century, CE. From, De praescriptione haereticorum:

    Chapter IX.―The Research After Definite Truth Enjoined on Us. When We Have Discovered This, We Should Be Content.

    I now purposely relinquish this ground of argument. Let it be granted, that the words, "Seek, and ye shall find," were addressed to all men (equally). Yet even here one's aim is carefully to determine the sense of the words consistently with (that reason), which is the guiding principle in all interpretation. (Now) no divine saying is so unconnected and diffuse, that its words only are to be insisted on, and their connection left undetermined.

    But at the outset I lay down (this position) that there is some one, and therefore definite, thing taught by Christ, which the Gentiles are by all means bound to believe, and for that purpose to "seek," in order that they may be able, when they have "found" it, to believe. However, there can be no indefinite seeking for that which has been taught as one only definite thing. You must "seek" until you "find," and believe when you have found; nor have you anything further to do but to keep what you have believed provided you believe this besides, that nothing else is to be believed, and therefore nothing else is to be sought, after you have found and believed what has been taught by Him who charges you to seek no other thing than that which He has taught. When, indeed, any man doubts about this, proof will be forthcoming, that we have in our possession that which was taught by Christ. Meanwhile, such is my confidence in our proof, that I anticipate it, in the shape of an admonition to certain persons, not "to seek" anything beyond what they have believed—that this is what they ought to have sought, how to avoid interpreting, "Seek, and ye shall find," without regard to the rule of reason.

    Chapter X.―One Has Succeeded in Finding Definite Truth, When He Believes. Heretical Wits are Always Offering Many Things for Vain Discussion, But We are Not to Be Always Seeking.

    Now the reason of this saying is comprised in three points: in the matter, in the time, in the limit. In the matter, so that you must consider what it is you have to seek; in the time, when you have to seek; in the limit, how long. What you have "to seek," then, is that which Christ has taught, (and you must go on seeking) of course for such time as you fail to find, —until indeed you find it. But you have succeeded in finding when you have believed. For you would not have believed if you had not found; as neither would you have sought except with a view to find. Your object, therefore, in seeking was to find; and your object in finding was to believe, All further delay for seeking and finding you have prevented by believing. The very fruit of your seeking has determined for you this limit. This boundary has He set for you Himself, who is unwilling that you should believe anything else than what He has taught, or, therefore, even seek for it.

    If, however, because so many other things have been taught by one and another, we are on that account bound to go on seeking, so long as we are able to find anything, we must (at that rate) be ever seeking, and never believe anything at all. For where shall be the end of seeking? where the stop in believing? where the completion in finding? (Shall it be) with Marcion? But even Valentinus proposes (to us the) maxim, "Seek, and ye shall find." Then shall it be) with Valentinus? Well, but Apelles, too, will assail me with the same quotation; Hebion also, and Simon, and all in turn, have no other argument wherewithal to entice me, and draw me over to their side. Thus I shall be nowhere, and still be encountering (that challenge), "Seek, and ye shall find," precisely as if I had no resting-place; as if (indeed) I had never found that which Christ has taught—that which ought to be sought, that which must needs131 be believed.

    Chapter XI.―After We Have Believed, Search Should Cease; Otherwise It Must End in a Denial of What We Have Believed. No Other Object Proposed for Our Faith.

    There is impunity in erring, if there is no delinquency; although indeed to err it is itself an act of delinquency. With impunity, I repeat, does a man ramble, when he (purposely) deserts nothing. But yet, if I have believed what I was bound to believe, and then afterwards think that there is something new to be sought after, I of course expect that there is something else to be found, although I should by no means entertain such expectation, unless it were because I either had not believed, although I apparently had become a believer, or else have ceased to believe. If I thus desert my faith, I am found to be a denier thereof. Once for all I would say, No man seeks, except him who either never possessed, or else has lost (what he sought). The old woman (in the Gospel) had lost one of her ten pieces of silver, and therefore she sought it; when, however, she found it, she ceased to look for it. The neighbour was without bread, and therefore he knocked; but as soon as the door was opened to him, and he received the bread, he discontinued knocking. The widow kept asking to be heard by the judge, because she was not admitted; but when her suit was heard, thenceforth she was silent. So that there is a limit both to seeking, and to knocking, and to asking. "For to every one that asketh," says He, "it shall be given, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened, and by him that seeketh it shall be found." Away with the man who is ever seeking because he never finds; for he seeks there where nothing can be found. Away with him who is always knocking because it will never be opened to him; for he knocks where there is none (to open). Away with him who is always asking because he will never be heard; for he asks of one who does not hear.


    (Holmes trans., 1870↱)

    Scholar Elaine Pagels reflects on her work translating and analyzing the Nag Hammadi texts, in the context of her life and experience:

    Instead of prophesying about the end of time, the books of revelation found at Nag Hammadi often speak instead of spritual breakthrough, as we've seen in in the Revelation of Zostrianos, and Allogenes. Another revelation widely read in antiquity, the Secret Revelation of John, tells how Jesus's disciple John, grieving after Jesus's death, suddenly felt the earth shake beneath his feet, saw brilliant light, and heard Jesus speaking to him from the light, saying, "John, John, why do you doubt, and why are you afraid? … I am the one who is with you always: I am the Father; I am the Mother; and I am the Son!" Then, John says, he was able to ask the risen Jesus questions that weighed on his heart, and to receive consolation from the divine presence he now envisioned as the original trinity: heavenly Father, Son, and heavenly Mother, the Holy Spirit.

    With so many people offering different "revelations," someone asked, how do we know which to trust? That question pushed me further: Why trust any? Why had I, or any of us, looked to "authorities" to validate our sense of what's true—whether what "the Bible says," as Billy Graham loved to claim, or what he or any other religious leaders say? Exploring these so-called heretical texts, I kept wondering what made church leaders regard them as so dangerous that they banded together to censor, bury, and burn them.

    Like anyone engaged in spiritual search, those leaders knew that not everything that sounds like insight rings true. Religious fervor often veers so close to madness that some psychiatrists suspect that every religious emotion masks some kind of delusion. How can we tell truth from lies? What insights are genuine, and which are shallow, fearful, self-serving? The ancients, too, recognized these as the most difficult questions of all, since what they called "discernment of spirits"—discriminating between delusion and spiritual inspiration—requires wisdom. To simplify such questions, church leaders, seeing themselves as shepherds (pastores) worked to set clear boundaries—creeds and canon—to tell their "flocks" what to believe, what to read, and what not to read, while ordering them to look only to priests and bishops for guidance.

    For when church leaders saw Christians in their congregations enthusiastic about sources like those found at Nag Hammadi—sources that don't prescribe what to believe, including some that aren't Jewish or Christian—some were intensely upset. Around 160 CE, Bishop Irenaeus, one of the most energetic leaders, insisted that his church was not only universal—"catholic"—but also possessed the only absolute, unchanging truth that could guarantee salvation. Some twenty-five years later, the African convert Tertullian, impatient with spiritual seekers, agreed with Irenaeus that such people were "heretics." Writing his famous prescription (Rx) to cure them from the potentially fatal disease of "heresy," he complained that "they're always quoting Jesus' saying, 'Seek and you shall find,'" but "they never find anything, since they're looking where there's nothing to find." When such Christians challenged him, Tertullian ordered them to stop asking questions and accept what they're taught, famously warning that "questions are what make people heretics!"


    (190-192)
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Pagels, Elaine. Why Religion? New York: Ecco, 2018.

    Tertullian. The Prescription Against Heretics. Translated by Peter Holmes. 1870. Tertullian.org. 14 May 2020. https://bit.ly/3dUPJjd
     
  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I think it has to do with gold prospecting.

    It sounds like something Jeff Williams could say...so come on let's go.

    OK I will bite Jan..what does it mean?

    Alex
     

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