samcdkey on Islam

Sam,

When you mentioned kickinng someone in the ass, or something to that affect, i guess it was taken literally

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It is a sad fact of life, that one judges other people based on one's own misconceptions.

 

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So, you're claiming apostates of Islam are merely so much make-believe?

And are you boasting 1.5 billion people since there are safety in numbers? They all back your views, 100%?

 

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No, but neither did I claim that all Muslims are perfect.
That would be foolish. Human nature covers a multitude of personalities.

No, these are the people in the world that you claim to know, based on the assertions and claims of a few people. According to you, all of them being Muslims, are violent and barbaric, based on their faith alone. Are they all the same? You tell me.

 

or just preconceptions.

 

My, my, you've clearly traveled extensively from A to Z, although, missing the rest of the alphabet.

 

Aren't you the man who thought Bihar the best state in India?

I'd keep my opinions to myself, if I were you.

 

Nope. I see the fog has yet to lift.

 

What's with the foggy references, sweetie?

Are you on hash or something?

My mistake...you liked parts of Bihar best in India.
(but I bet you went back and checked the posts)

 

15 pages did I something???

 

Okay I tried to simplify this as possible:

According to the Qur'an: "Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers" Sura 48:29. "Kill the Mushrikun (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush..." Sura 9:5. Also see Sura 9:29 Please note that there is not a single verse in the entire Christian Bible that contains this "open-ended", universal command to kill/or be ruthless to unbelievers.

Radical Muslims believe that they are Mujahideen, or "holy warriors of Allah". Their goal, like Islam's goal is to establish the entire world as a pure Islamic state (a Khalifah), which conforms to Islamic laws.

Even after Allah confirmed the Torah and Gospel, Islamic Mullahs and Imams have tried to sell the lie that the Christian Gospels and Jewish Torah have been corrupted.

This a complete lie! This lie is perpetuated by Islam, because of all the historic, scientific, and simple mathematical errors in the Koran/Qur'an - as you'll see below... The Qur'an just doesn't add up.

The Christian Bible predates Muhammad and Islam by 500 years. The Jewish Torah predates Muhammad and Islam by 1,000 - 3,000 years. Muhammad said for Muslims to read the Bible for "Guidance and Light." For Islam to say they are corrupted, then is to call Muhammad a liar for recommending it.

The same Bible Muhammad would have seen (if he ever did) is in both (1) The Vatican (Codex Vaticanus) and (2) British Museum (Codex Sinaticus). It is all there, including Jesus dying on the cross as atonement for our sins. And, His resurrection, and ascension into heaven - in front of many witnesses. The New Testament is preserved in almost perfect condition in these two Greek texts which both predate Muhammad and Islam.

Muslims should note that nowhere in the Qur'an there is even a suggestion that the Christian Biblical text has been altered or corrupted. The word "tahrif" is never used with reference to the Christian Gospels (Injil). The Qur'an occasionally accuses the Jews of altering their Scripture (like in Sura 5:13); but it never levels this accusation at Christians. It in no way implies that the text of the Gospel of Jesus (Injil) has been corrupted. In fact, the Qur'an attests to the validity of the Christian Gospels, Zabur (Psalms) and the Torah.

As to the Taurat (Torah), Jewish scribes painstakingly copied it via a system of checking, double checking and adding each letter on each line. Any attempt to change something in the Torah would have resulted in immediate discovery and condemnation. And copies of the Torah from around the world agree exactly.

This same quality of transmission cannot be said of the Islamic Qur'an. The Islamic Qur'an was written down from 3rd and 4th hand accounts; and from a few thoughts written on scrap papers --and compiled over 150 years after Muhammad died in 632 A.D. The oldest Qur'an dates from around 790 A.D. (after Jesus), and it is in the British Library. That's 158 years after Muhammad’s death. See corrupted Qur'an here .

Muslims often claim that the manuscript of the Qur'an housed in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey is one of the oldest sources. Muslims say it dates from around 650 A.D. There is an insurmountable problem with this. This document is written in Kufic (also known as al-Khatt al-Kufi) script. Coins in the British Museum show that the first coins using the Kufic script date from the mid to end of the 8th century (750-800 A.D.). The only script used during and after Muhammad's days was the Jazm script.

The Samarkand (aka: Othman Koran) manuscript in the Soviet Library in Tashkent, Uzbekistan also uses the Kufic script, indicating late 8th century. Many believe it is the oldest in existence. Only About one-third of the original survives.

The library where the Koran is kept is in an area of old Tashkent known as Hast-Imam, well off the beaten track for most visitors to this city. It lies down a series of dusty lanes, near the grave of a 10th century scholar, Kaffel-Shashi.

This Samarkand codice manuscript is considerably incomplete. It only begins in the middle of verse 7 of Suratul-Baqarah (the second Surah) and from there on numerous pages are missing. The next oldest Muslim manuscripts are also from the 8th-century. One is written in al-ma'il script and the other in Kufic. Neither of these correspond precisely to today's Qur'an.

Also, in 1972, construction workers who were restoring the Great Mosque of Sana'a in Yemen found a cache of manuscripts scraps that differ and contradict today's Qur'an so badly, that Muslims try to hide this. These Yemeni Qur'an manuscripts date back to the 7th and 8th centures, and are actually the oldest found, and they are in Hijazi. Hijazi (Makkan or Madinan) script, is the script in which the earliest masahif of the Qur'an were written.

These manuscripts calls to question whether the present Qur'an was delivered to Muslims in pristine form. Your guess is as good as mine as to who in addition to Muhammad made up the Qur'an.

Even though their own prophet completely attested to the genuineness and authenticity of the Old and New Testaments, Islam makes the claim that they have been corrupted. Why? Because the Qur'an erroneously contradicts them both. And Islamic clerics know it. In Muslim cleric minds this also relieves them of Muhammad's statements such like:

Muslims who have received the Qur'an have no solid grounds of faith, and that the foundation of the Muslim faith is insecure and insufficient and the Muslim religion is futile, unless they observe and follow the Taurat (Torah) and the Gospel (Injil).


Many Muslims Imams and Mullahs falsely point to Sura 2:140 to try and prove that Jews and Christians had corrupted their Scriptures. Referring to the Jews, this sura says; "...who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah?...?" Yet, nowhere does this Sura state that the Jews and Christians corrupted their scriptures. Muslim clerics need to point to something because they know that the Jewish Torah and Christian Gospels badly contradict the Islamic Qur'an. The fact that Muhammad and Allah told Muslims to believe in the Torah and Christian Gospels is a very bad dilemma for these professionals who wish to continue making a good living in Islam.

Suras 6:34, 6:115, 10:64 and 50:28,29 clearly says to Muslims, "No change can there be in the words of Allah" and that Allah cannot alter (or abrogate) his words." So the Torah and Christian Gospels are correct, because Allah did verify this fact -- this clearly makes the Muslim Qur'an false; because it contradicts Allah.

Care to explain this?

 

Doesn't that go against the very premise of Islam?

Yet, Islam, like many other failed ideologies, would attempt to corral everyone under a single way of life. It is the very essence of ideological failures.

You continue to make the same mistake over and over, assuming there is something wrong with people. It is the ideologies that are at fault. Isn't it the fundamentalists of who you speak, the ones who purport following the religion, fundamentally? Isn't that what you're supposed to do with religion?

 

You know, the fog that obscures your worldview.

Would it give you a feeling of superiority if I was?

I had no need to check my posts, I know exactly where I traveled.

I would hope some day you provide shelter for your cat(s), leave your job as an assistant lab tech and go out and see the world. Those very thick rose-colored glasses you wear will tend to thin out some.

 

Is this the same fog that leads me to check the sources of stories you take for granted?

No but it may explain why you seem lucid and delirious all at the same time.

And Bihar wasn't one of the places?

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My cats are in India, I'm doing my PhD and I've been traveling since I was 23.
But you know that already.

So does it make YOU feel better to think of me as a dumb old maid living in a bubble with my cats?

 

Piled Higher & Deeper? Propaganda Hourly Delivered?

Only your posts know for sure.

 

I've already explained this.

Right.

The Quran never claimed that the Torah or Gospels were corrupted, just their interpretations. Since this has also been done by the Muslims, they hardly have a high horse to stand on.

If you check the literature, you will find that the Quran was completed 25 years after Mohammed died (since he received revelations upto his death). At the time of his death, there were several Muslims who had memorised and recited the Quran regularly for prayers.

The additions of didactics and annotations took longer since it was necessary to get them from persons who had either direct contact with either the prophet or his wives and companions. Hence the oldest surviving copy of the Quran is from 100 years after Mohammed's death. I'm sure you can see the difference.

Give me a source for these claims

 

I'm sure this makes sense to you.

 

What according to you, is the premise of Islam?

And isn't that what you are trying to do?

What makes you reach this conclusion?

 

Give me a source for these claims[/QUOTE]
Here you go sam!

A partial Koran now in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul is said to be another of these original copies.
http://www.al-islam.org/gallery/photos/bismilah.htm
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/museum.html

The library where the Koran is kept-It is said that Caliph Othman made five copies of the original Koran.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581684.stm

The only script used during and after Mohammed’s days was the Jazm script.
The Othman Koran manuscript in the Tashkent library also uses the Kufic script.
http://www.message4muslims.org.uk/Quran/JamalQuran/08earliestsurvivingQuran.htm


Muhammad was not able even to write his own name, it is a historical fact that He was illiterate, but the Qur’an was authenticated and written under his personal supervision. For example:

Whenever muhammad received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions who would also memorize it. He would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself.
Muhammad could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, muhammad would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of muhammad.

Zaid b. Thabit said: “The Prophet died and the Qur’an had not been assembled into a single place.”

Cache of manuscripts scraps found in Yemen that differ and contradict today's Qur'an
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=15815
http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch1.html

When biblical manusripts are found such as the dead sea scrolls and others they are quickly given media attention where as muslims keep their discoveries secretive.

So if the muslims believe and put their trust in a one man more than a thousand years ago to memorize thousands of words in his head then verbally tell his companions, then have them memorize it in their heads and later write it on paper to paper then convert it script to script to become a book!!! why not just have mighty "allah" write it out for them instead and save those guys the trouble. or maybe God was illiterate as well!!...

explanation?

 

1. Mohammed was illiterate was a well known fact.'In the ancient times, when writing was scarcely used, memory and oral transmission was exercised and strengthened to a degree now almost unknown' relates Michael Zwettler.

Prophet Muhammad (S) encouraged his companions to learn and teach the Quran:
'Some of the companions who memorized the Quran were: 'Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Ibn Masud, Abu Huraira, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As, Aisha, Hafsa, and Umm Salama'. Many Quranic memorizers (Qurra) were present during the lifetime of the Prophet and afterwards through out the then Muslim world. 'Over the centuries of the Islamic Era, there have arisen throughout the various regions of the Islamic world literally thousands of schools devoted specially to the teaching of the Quran to children for the purpose of memorization. These are called, in Arabic, katatib (singular: Kuttab). It is said that the Caliph 'Umar (634-44) first ordered the construction of these schools in the age of the great expansion'.

Second generation:
"…Quranic schools were set up everywhere. As an example to illustrate this I may refer to a great Muslim scholar, of the second Muslim generation, Ibn 'Amir, who was the judge of Damascus under the Caliph Umar Ibn 'Abd Al-Aziz. It is reported that in his school for teaching the Quran there were 400 disciples to teach in his absence".

He did not have to memorise thousands of words, since the verses were revealed over 23 years, not in one day

2. Written text of the Quran:

Zaid is reported to have said: 'We use to compile the Qur'an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle'. 'Besides the official manuscripts of the Quran kept with the Prophet, many of his companions use to possess their own written copies of the revelation'. 'A list of Companions of whom it is related that they had their own written collections included the following: Ibn Mas'ud, Ubay bin Ka'b, Ali, Ibn Abbas, Abu Musa, Hafsa, Anas bin Malik, Umar, Zaid bin Thabit, Ibn Al-Zubair, Abdullah ibn Amr, Aisha, Salim, Umm Salama, Ubaid bin Umar'. 'Aisha and Hafsa, the wives of the Prophet had their own scripts written after the Prophet had died'

'The Prophet, while in Madinah, had about 48 scribes who use to write for him'.

At the battle of Yamama (633 CE), six months after the death of the Prophet, a number of Muslims, who had memorized the Quran were killed. Hence it was feared that unless a written official copy of the Quran were prepared, a large part of revelation might be lost.

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al-Ansari, one of the scribes of the Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra (memorizers of the Quran, were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle) of Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra at other places, whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost, unless you collect it (in one manuscript, or book)…so Abu Bakr said to me (Zaid bin Thabit): You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness) and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript)'…So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who know it by heart)…"

Now, a committee was formed to under take the task of collecting the written Quranic material in the form of a book. The committee was headed by Zaid bin Thabit, the original scribe of the Prophet, who was also a memorizer of the complete Quran.

'…Zaid bin Thabit had committed the entire Quran to memory…'

The compilers in this committee, in examining written material submitted to them, insisted on very stringent criteria as a safeguard against any errors.

1. The material must have been originally written down in the presence of the Prophet; nothing written down later on the basis of memory alone was to be accepted.

2. The material must be confirmed by two witnesses, that is to say, by two trustworthy persons testifying that they themselves had heard the Prophet recite the passage in question.

'The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Umar (the second successor), till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, 'Umar's daughter (and wife of the Prophet)'.

This copy of the Quran, prepared by the committee of competent companions of the Prophet (which included Memorizers of the Quran) was unanimous approved by the whole Muslim world. If they committee would have made a error even of a single alphabet in transcribing the Quran, the Qurra (memorizers of the Quran) which totaled in the tens of hundreds would have caught it right away and correct it.

3. Official copy of the Quran:

During Mohammed's time there were several variant recitations of the Quran which Uthman decided may lead to disunity among Muslims (there was already a Sunni-Shia split, and there were problems brewing between the Syrians and Iraqis of the time), so he called for an ijma or council and they decided on the Qureysh form and burned the rest.

Again a very stringent criteria was set up by this Committee to prevent any alteration of the Revelation.

1. The earlier recension (Original copy prepared by Abu Bakr) was to serve as the principal basis of the new one.

2. Any doubt that might be raised as to the phrasing of a particular passage in the written text was to be dispelled by summoning persons known to have learned the passage in question from the Prophet.

3. Uthman himself was to supervise the work of the Council.

4. The copy of Hamsa was always kept separately, so as not be lost or destroyed by war and fire. This copy was kept by Uthman. The 5 copies he made were for the cities of Makka, Damascus, Kufa, Basra and Madina.

Of the copies made by Uthman, two still exist to our day. One is in the city of Tashkent, (Uzbekistan) and the second one is in Istanbul (Turkey). Below is a brief account of both these copies:

1. The copy which Uthman sent to Madina was reportedly removed by the Turkish authorities to Istanbul, from where it came to Berlin during World War I. The Treaty of Versailles, which concluded World War I, contains the following clause:

'Article 246: Within six months from the coming into force of the present Treaty, Germany will restore to His Majesty, King of Hedjaz, the original Koran of Caliph Othman, which was removed from Madina by the Turkish authorities and is stated to have been presented to the ex-Emperor William II".

'This manuscript then reached Istanbul, but not Madina (Where it now resides)'.

2. The second copy in existence is kept in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. 'It may be the Imam (master) manuscript or one of the other copies made at the time of Uthman'.

It Came to Samarkand in 890 Hijra (1485) and remained there till 1868. Then it was taken to St.Petersburg by the Russians in 1869. It remained there till 1917. A Russian orientalist gave a detailed description of it, saying that many pages were damaged and some were missing. A facsimile, some 50 copies, of this mushaf (copy) was produced by S.Pisareff in 1905. A copy was sent to the Ottoman Sultan 'Abdul Hamid, to the Shah of Iran, to the Amir of Bukhara, to Afghanistan, to Fas and some important Muslim personalities. One copy is now in the Columbia University Library (U.S.A.).

'The Manuscript was afterwards returned to its former place and reached Tashkent in 1924, where it has remained since'.

Uthman's version was written in an older Arabic script that left out most vowel markings; thus the script could be interpreted and read in various ways. This basic Uthmanic script is called the rasm; it is the basis of several traditions of oral recitation, differing in minor points. In order to fix these oral recitations and prevent any mistakes, scribes and scholars began annotating the Uthmanic rasm with various diacritical marks indicating how the word was to be pronounced. It is believed that this process of annotation began around 700 CE, soon after Uthman's compilation, and finished by approximately 900 CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_and_development_of_the_Qur'an

PS Memorising the Quran is not an ancient art. I have a cousin who is a Qurra. All imams who conduct prayers in big mosques are Qurras.

They recite the whole Quran during prayers in Ramadan. one juz per day for 30 days.

I forgot about the different scripts: