SAM: You obviously haven't really been watching my posts, or gauging my opinions on Muslims, or watching what I have and haven't moderated. The simple fact is that in the Israel/Palestine debate, or in the Jew/Muslim debate (if you want to call it that), I'm about as unbiased as you can get. I am neither Jew nor Muslim. I have no Jewish or Muslim relatives. I've never been to the Middle East. I have both Jewish and Muslim friends. Also, I have never disparaged Muslims on this or any other forum. I was defending Muslims immediately following the events of 9/11. If you're really interested, search my posts from around that time. For somebody as biased as you, it must seem that everybody who dares to look objectively at Israel/Palestine is unbearably biased. You want Israel wiped off the map, so anybody who disagrees with that must be a Zionist, I assume, at least in comparison. I am disappointed that even somebody with your education and intelligence is apparently unable to look at the issue objectively. There's really no need to do that. Nobody ever said Israel was perfect. That is very far from the case. Of course, Israelis do not see it as an occupation. As a practical matter, the Israelis are never going to pack up and leave Israel, so it might be time to start dealing with the real world and looking for truly workable solutions. You are setting up straw men here.
Know any occupier that does? You're thinking Australia, I'm thinking India. We have different backgrounds. IMO, Palestine under the Jews would be akin to the aboriginals under Australia. Eventually, if the Palestinians want their self determination, they will have to fight for it. No way the Israelis are gonna give them ANYTHING. Anyone who thinks they will are not paying attention to Israel. If they want a divided state that is their decision. But I'm not going to pretend that Jews around the world have some right to Palestinian land because they have installed themselves there. Its not right by any moral standard and I see no reason to pretend it is. 200 years in India did not extend that right to the British, 60 years in Palestine is no excuse for Americans to perform aliyah today and create even more refugees by evicting elderly Palestinians from their homes. I went to Mecca too and needed a visa and passport to go there, even with all Muslims. If there were any Jews, should I have evicted them and taken their homes? Its ridiculous to even suggest something like that. I'm curious, would you say the same thing about Russian occupation of Georgia or Ethiopian occupation of Somalia? Or does the fact that its a religion/ethnicity based occupation by Jews make it more acceptable to you? Do you think Australia was wrong to intervene in the occupation of East Timor? What was your "objective" viewpoint there, as compared to my biased one here?
How do you think that's been working out for them so far? Not too well, I'd say. The only chance Palestinians have for self determination is through diplomacy and negotiation. Oh, and that's also the only way that Israel will become safe from rocket attacks, too. The Jews have connections to the land of Israel that go back thousands of years - just as the Palestinians do. I agree 100%. (Surprised?) I don't know enough about the history of Georgia and Ethiopia to comment. With recent events in Georgia, it seems to me that at least some areas of Georgia considered themselves to be rightfully Russian. But I could be wrong. East Timor was invaded by Indonesia and denied its internationally agreed right to self determination. For many years, Australia stood by and did nothing. Eventually, our government did the right thing, but it took a long time and numerous acts of violence by Indonesia to provoke action.
So what? How does this give an American Jew circa 2008 any right to move to Palestine and kick out a Palestinian to build homes for Jews? I'm sure there are German, Irish and Lord knows how many natives of several countries in America. Do they have a right to their "native land" that includes kicking out people who stay there? You think the descendents of the Aztecs and Mayans can get a right to return" kick out the existing population and install a state there? If you have a connection, you apply for a visa an visit. You don't get a long term indefinite never ending lease on the land, granted by a third party. Whom did you support? Indonesia? Don't they have historic ties to the land? Wouldn't it have been better for both of them to work out a workable solution rather than have Australia impose its extreme and biased will on them? What do you think of this extreme biased view of the UN? http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gEyB4yzw5FH0J8GjA84qDhD_RKywD94I6O7O0 Not at all. But your extreme view is hostile to Zionists.
SAM: No. Nor does it give Palestinians a right to kick out the Jews who settled in Israel following WWII. Were they dispossessed? If so, they may be entitled to compensation. If they left voluntarily, then probably not. It really depends on your point of origin, and also whether you were unlawfully dispossessed. Note, however, that the dispossession principle (if we want to call it that) doesn't extend infinitely far back in time, in ignorance of wars, the redrawing of national boundaries and so on. As I said before, it is necessary to deal with facts as they exist, and not insist on harking back to an idealised state of affairs that may or may not have existed some time in the distant past. At the time, I was too young to know much about the issue. I certainly support the current independence of East Timor. Indonesia? No, I don't think so. The East Timorese have been ethnically distinct for quite a long time, as far as I'm aware. That's what they did! In fact, there was international agreement about East Timorese independence. Australia's role was as an international peacekeeper, not as an imperialist enforcer. How much do you know about East Timor? I think that in this case the bias is probably on the part of Israel and the US. Don't you? My view is balanced and reasonable. As I said before, I am only an extremist when viewed from your end of the extremist spectrum. In fact, I sit in the middle.
They did not "settle" they kicked out the native Palestinians and forcibly took the land. Like the British did in India. You're kidding right? Do you know of anyone who was dispossessed by the British or French who received compensation? Does that mean they can go back "home" and kick out those who live in their "rightful homes" 200 years ago? Except for Jews. Who apparently have a "connection" to the land Except for Jews. Who for 60 years have been dispossessing the Palestinians based on a mythical connection. Indeed, note however, you support the US and Israeli position of ignoring the [recent but not ancient] past, while the UN rightfully acknolwedges the racism of the Jewish state and questions its premise. Then you'll eventually get around to supporting the independence of the Palestinians, I'm sure. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
no offense james but you could make the case that they do in the case of people who are jewish in religion only which happens to be a rather large portion of the people.
I don't know about that. X is a traditional symbol for Christ, as in Xmas. I don't think I've seen Xian anywhere but this forum, but it doesn't offend me. But then, not much does.
When Israel was established, and certainly prior to 1967, there were agreed borders. In principle, I support the state of Israel doing what it wants within those borders, with a few qualifications.
no, i don't have any idea how many people (muslims no doubt) that are violently angry. why would they blame america? they aren't the only players you know. the only reason i can think of is that there are plenty of blind sighted people (just like you) that can't see any other players. it's a real shame you were raised in such conditions sam, a person of your intelligence would have went far in america. instead you choose to twist the meanings of words, misinterpret results, and use sensationalism, all to give the west and especially america a black eye. why do you live here sam? dread going home to your backwards little country?
it doesn't offend me either, not really. i believe a cross is the traditional sign of christ, not an X
Nope, the original symbol was X: Usage of X for Christ The word "Christ" and its compounds, including "Christmas", have been abbreviated for at least the past 1,000 years, long before the modern "Xmas" was commonly used. "Christ" was often written as "XP" or "Xt"; there are references in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle as far back as AD 1021. This X and P arose as the uppercase forms of the Greek letters χ and ρ), used in ancient abbreviations for Χριστος (Greek for "Christ"), and are still widely seen in many Eastern Orthodox icons depicting Jesus Christ. The labarum, an amalgamation of the two Greek letters rendered as ☧, is a symbol often used to represent Christ in Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christian Churches.[2] The occasionally held belief that the "X" represents the cross on which Christ was crucified also has no basis in fact. St Andrew's Cross is X-shaped, but Christ's cross was probably shaped like a T or a †. Indeed, X-as-chi was associated with Christ long before X-as-cross could be, since the cross as a Christian symbol developed later. (The Greek letter Chi Χ stood for "Christ" in the ancient Greek acrostic ΙΧΘΥΣ ichthys.) While some see the spelling of Christmas as Xmas a threat, others see it as a way to honor the martyrs. The use of X as an abbreviation for "cross" in modern abbreviated writing (e.g. "King's X" for "King's Cross") may have reinforced this assumption. In ancient Christian art, χ and χρ are abbreviations for Christ's name.[4] In many manuscripts of the New Testament and icons, X is an abbreviation for Christos, as is XC (the first and last letters in Greek, using the lunate sigma); compare IC for Jesus in Greek. The Oxford English Dictionary documents the use of this abbreviation back to 1551, 50 years before the first English colonists arrived in North America and 60 years before the King James Version of the Bible was completed. At the same time, Xian and Xianity were in frequent use as abbreviations of "Christian" and "Christianity"; and nowadays still are sometimes so used, but much less than "Xmas".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas
anyway if the savages in israel cant do anything but bomb people from hundreds or thousands of Feet up in the air using fighter bombers, Apache helicpopters, however sometimes they destroy houses with tanks and bulldozers and other such destructive tools supplied to them by the US. Failing this they cut of the water supply and power supply....but of course why shoudl they supply power and water to the people they occupy?? But they even stop them from producing or supplying the shit themselves.... And then the savages moan cos they get the odd rocket fired at them out of frustration these rockets have no destructive power in comparison to the israeli savages but the savages can not argue back but just make people feel sorry for them and the people (ie the west) are suckered into it somehow, even thoguh these rockets are unguided i wonder how many women and children in the israel)have been killed by unguided weapons against the number of women and children killed by the guided high powered weapons of the savages (israelis)who's govt betray the people and keep them savages cos all they want is eternal war as in to justify the weapons they buy and the collosal waste of money that it is
Do you think there can be "agreed borders" when the people who live there are not involved in the process? Does the UN have the jurisdiction to "agree" to borders against their wishes? Gee guess they should think of all the "players" when the Ethiopians come in and slash the necks of their two year olds eh? Terrible of them to misinterpret the bombing and massacre of their people. Perhaps you should go there and give them some pointers as to the global view of the American funding of their massacre? While you're at it do stop over at the neighbors: http://allafrica.com/stories/200808290503.html
the X as a symbol for christ isn't mentioned on any of thr religious sites i visited. here is one typical example: http://www.library.nd.edu/about/symbols_of_christ/
There is obviously preferential treatment of Jews on this forum in relation to Muslims. Nearly all of the Muslims on this forum have been banned or are simply treated by contempt by the moderators of this forum. The reason why you were demoted is because you hold unpopular views about Israel. I have never heard of moderators who intentionally personally attack and bait members get banned for this. Apparently, SAM was banned for her views. You have made an interesting post, the more pro-Israel and Zionist a poster seems to be, the more susceptible to hate of Muslims that person is. Zionism lives at its heart over its ability to convince its adherents that Muslims are a threat and unworthy of pity. In relation to Islam, any and all criticism seems to be allowed and even encouraged on this forum. Muslim posters put up with the worst personal attack and continuous hate campaigns to discredit Muslim posters are very popular among some bigots on this forum. The moderators stand idly by and when Muslims defend themselves, and in the case of people like Kadark who may have overreacted to insults against them and their religion, they are intentionally banned, even permanently for the littlest of things. There is a feeling of hatred generally among Western populaces of Muslims, the moderators are also swept in this. This same feeling and rhetoric makes it possible for Muslims to be captured and tortured with no evidence for two to three years and then released on lack of evidence. The moderators don't think that the hatred displayed on these forums can promote violence against innocent Muslims. Until the moderators understand that all the violence and hatred spreading in this forum is their fault and do something about it, what can we possibly do but to defend ourselves against these vicious personal attacks and the demonisation of our communities?
Well all I can say to the next wannabe moderators in the science forums is, if you have an opinion on anything you can express it. But not on Jews and Israel unless they follow the politically correct format. Better to ask for guidelines before posting. And just to be clear, its not the Jews I hold responsible for this, but people who think moderating a science forum should be determined by religious or political views, rather than scientific viewpoints. What next? Extreme ethical views? Extreme artistic views? Anything but the science, it would seem.
This forum plans to be Impartial, however what we have here is one person of one religion professing over another religion at "Unfairness". This forum is itself supposed to be Predominantly a Science forum, in honesty Science might have it's place in Religion but Religion has no place in Science and this is echoed not just by my words alone but any community that attempts to be Scientific. Some might argue "...But Einstein was Jewish" or some other famous person that did something in Science having a Religious background. Yes, they did have a religion however it was a Social Burden they bared, After all such Indoctrination in a Society isn't easily just shaken off and this is proven by the continued "mollycoddling" of Religion and the ability to Preach. If you want true unbiased Moderation my "personal" response would be to ban any Religious Preaching on this site, this includes such rantings of "The Jews get preferential treatment over Muslims". You see if we try to be unbiased and allow you to speak freely, you read into it as "Preferential Treatment" and manipulate it's meaning to your own will. So to make it completely unbiased The forum should ban all Religious preaching, talk etc. (This is of course my personal view, not something that the forum has suddenly decided before you start your annoying and quite pathetic complaint threads.)
The old-everyone is equal once they have nothing thought, eh, stryder? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
That's pretty much it. It works with Children and it's suggestion (I gather by Jung) that everyone has an "Inner Child" (Technically it's just the make up of your youth being a dormant part of your Psyche that can boil to the surface, if you can't deal with a given situation correctly.) Heck I even think some religious parables even state this to the religious masses, however they so easily get missed through the bigotry of closed mindedness. While I detest religion for what it's become, I don't argue the value of looking at some of the stories which they contain as they are historical occurrence's and documents of the first rules and regulations in regards to "Civilization". The problem is though that their structures remained unchanged while the world indeed does change. This is why legal systems came into being, procedural methods of practising law so such parabolic stories that can be misread, ignored or misconstrued could be left as annals in some History Archive.
