Roy moore accusations

Discussion in 'Politics' started by birch, Nov 17, 2017.

  1. birch Valued Senior Member

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    This would be funny it it wasn't so awful. I know what alabama is like, that was my first introduction to the united states because of a white supremacist psychopath. then had the torture of living there twice because he liked it so much.

    But let's be fair, shall we? not everyone in alabama portrays themselves as an uneducated hick that drawls their speech with a southern accent, wears a mullet and a beer gut etc. In fact, many alabamians pride themselves on being cosmopolitan, worldly and appearing as anyone else in the world but (shock?) 9 times out of 10 that's just window dressing.

    they are as vile and nasty as the worst republicans, expressing their opinions with a barely hidden level of bigoted spite. that state has some of the most racist, coldest, hateful, nastiest, meanest, cruelest and unfair people per their population. also, contrary to the stereotype of the southern humility and charm, southerners are the most uppity, snotty, aggressive and obnoxiously self-righteous bunch.

    this is one of the conservative backbones of america in larger numbers but they are everywhere scattered about all through america. lol
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
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  3. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

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    The "best" part about all this is the number of supporters calling into that radio interview saying that they "don't care" what Roy Moore did because we "survived eight years with a sexual predator in the White House (Clinton)". First, I don't recall any accusations against Bill that were sexual assault - immoral, yes, but adultery isn't automatically sexual assault. Second, even if Billy Bob did diddle someone who didn't want it... we should now excuse someone else doing so as a result? No, they should BOTH be charged and tried for it.

    But... they'll vote for a pedo all in the name of keeping "muh party!" in power. It's fucking fantastic how utterly fucked we are as a nation...
     
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  5. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    The Broaddrick question; being surrounded by layers of armed security backed by force of law postured between her and the exits might well affect her perception and subsequent decisions. Or, wait a minute, was the state trooper bit Paula Jones?

    But the rest of your point not only holds, but seems pretty important in a particular context: Republicans had a chance to nail rape culture squarely within a presidency, but it turns out they never really meant it, and just wanted to exploit women. It's astounding trying to work through that particular point, because whatever other atrocities are going on, that particular exploitation and betrayal earns conservatives a special place in Hell.

    I would also note that for the most part we need to change the laws before these acts can be tried so long after the fact. That'll take some doing. The marital rape argument was so effective I can't wait to see what we do to statutes of limitations. And, yes, I wish that cynicism was a little less visceral.

    (No, really, I think back to how we managed to invent a copyright concern because of the internet, and then strengthened innovators, inventors, and artists by transferring more of their authority to corporations. And I think of all the people who say government doesn't work, and also the conservatives laboring so hard to fulfill that promise. And then I think of how deeply misogyny is rooted in our American tradition and society. Isn't that a lovely prospect: Politicians decide to repair the statutes of limitations regarding sex crimes. It's kind of scary, actually, and oh, yeah, I have no idea what to make of Texas, where Republicans decided to empower religious conscience by allowing state agents to aid and abet rapists.)
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Well, 5 times out of 10 might be more accurate. Doug Jones is now leading in the polls. So apparently some Alabamans have morals.
     
  9. birch Valued Senior Member

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    then it wouldn't be alabama, it would be like the rest of the united states. as if every other person in alabama is an agnostic, atheist, liberal or democrat. lol
     
  10. Capracus Registered Senior Member

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    Are the alleged offenses of Roy Moore, and the known offenses of Al Franken morally equivalent?
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    I think the most horrific part has been the excuses, from referring to the Bible to saying that this is Alabama and old men dated young girls back then and worse, questioning how legal a 14 year old should be and whether his actions were really that wrong. If that was not bad enough, we also have some who have argued that Moore should be elected because of these allegations.

    I disagree. The conduct with Monica Lewinsky was clear cut sexual harassment. There's no way around that. Was that sexual assault? I don't know. I haven't heard her claim that it was.

    As for the sexual assault allegations.. The accusations against him were worse than Roy Moore and I think a case could easily have been made for it. Do I believe his accusers? Yes, I do. The corroborating evidence surrounding Juanita Broaddick were much stronger than they are against Moore.

    It wasn't just diddling. He pinned her down and raped her, leaving her with bruising to her face. He then made repeated contact attempts to thank her for her silence.

    I think the way Broaddick was treated as a political pawn by the right is obscene. But I also think the manner in which those on the left turned on her to be equally obscene.

    Of course they will. Just as Franken, for example has people claiming he did nothing wrong because it's 'muh party!'.

    Sexual assault and harassment is now being given the party line treatment. Victims are being dragged through broken glass because they dared to come forward.

    Politicising sexual harassment and sexual assault in this fashion is always going to get ugly.

    I would say the same applied to both sides. Democrats could have stood up for the victims and nail rape culture as well, but refused to do so because of partisan politics.

    Both sides are exploiting and blaming victims for political gain.
     
    Walter L. Wagner likes this.
  12. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

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    *whistles* I was not aware of the scope of the Broaddick allegations. I don't know what the options are after 20 years, but if her claims are true, I would not mind seeing both Clinton's tossed in prison for it, since it sounds like Hillary was, at that point, a willing accomplice via association.

    I would hope that the Era of nearly everyone having an HD video camera in their pocket would deter this behavior. I doubt it will, but I had hoped.
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    I think Hillary Clinton did what was expected of her and she acted as she did for her own self preservation. She is as much a victim of circumstance as anything, really.

    She is not alone in attempting to cover up her husband's, well, crimes, and she won't be the last one to do it either.

    I don't think she should be thrown in prison for something her husband did and foisted on her and their daughter. And I don't think she should be blamed for it either. I see it more in the sense that she did what she did to protect herself and her future and I don't really like the thought that he did what he did, and ruined her life in the process and somehow or other people think she should pay for his crimes as well.

    She saw her marriage take massive hits, she was publicly humiliated repeatedly, blamed, abused, for something her husband did and frankly, got away with.

    What really gets me with this whole thing playing out at present is just how partisan the issue of sexual harassment and sexual assault has become. Look at Moore. The left are rightly demanding he should step down, as are many on the right. But Moore's far right supporters are digging in, saying that the allegations against him are either not that bad, were the norm back then, we have victim blaming and shaming, it's being called a political witch hunt by his supporters.

    Then look at Franken and it's playing out in a similar fashion. The right want his blood, and his supporters are digging in, and they are saying the exact same thing about his accuser that the people on the far right are saying about Moore's accusers. Take a wander to sites like Daily KOS and it is glaring. It's become a conspiracy, she is being blamed, this is a Stone and Fox News hit, some are slut shaming her in the comments section, others are questioning why she took so long to come forward, others in the comment section are questioning how she could possibly feel sexually threatened because he was not her superior on that tour, etc.

    It's literally same shit different day. I guess in this case, it's the same shit, different sides.

    Frankly, Moore's supporters are vile human beings. And after reading through some horror shit on sites like Daily KOS, I could easily say the same thing about Franken's supporters.

    It's no longer about sexual harassment, sexual assault. Victims are being shamed and blamed, abused, insulted. Why? Because of partisan politics.

    At the end of the day and with all known facts considered, Ms. Tweeden took the coward’s way out. This wasn’t a situation where he was in a position of power over her and she feared for her career. Franken wasn’t a senator at the time and carried as much weight in Hollywood as any other ex-SNL performer. In other words, nada.

    This wasn’t a rape case, an assault case, or a power dynamics issue. This falls more into the comedian can’t tell when he’s being heckled category. I accept that Ms. Tweeden felt uncomfortable—and because she did she likely viewed all further interactions with him on the tour through cynical lenses, but Ms. Tweeden needs to realize that women can’t have it every way—wear your big girl panties and confront the issue in the moment in all cases that don’t involve power dynamics.

    Ms. Tweeden stated that all she ever wanted was an apology. If that’s the case, why not confront Franken privately with how she’s been feeling for 11 years and give him the chance to (1) offer her a genuine apology and (2) learn from the situation? Had she first sought him out privately and he was dismissive or abusive rather than apologetic… okay, news conference time. Instead she chose to forever mar his reputation and possibly ruin his career. That isn’t courage; that’s cowardice. Especially given the fact that per her own words she isn’t even certain if Senator Franken (then Comedian Franken) knew how he was making her feel.

    As to Jake Tapper, he laid it on a bit thick. Tweeden’s actions are neither heroic nor brave. Encouraging people to publicly shame others for sins they didn’t know they committed in the absence of a power differential is irresponsible—and that’s being kind. Not everything needs to be done publicly nor should it be. All you’ve accomplished is to further exacerbate the current culture of false equivalencies.
    This is the embodiment of rape culture. Now, consider the accusation against him.

    Apparently she should have put on her "big girl panties" and confronted him. While on a USO tour, surrounded by mostly male soldiers in a war zone. They also ignore the fact that he forced her into that so called rehearsal after writing her into a skit specifically designed to end with his mouth on hers and then after she shoved him away when he shoved his tongue into her mouth, he took a photo of her while she was asleep and he either groped her or pretended to go for her boobs.

    Delving into the comments section brings up a world of nightmares.

    Comments about how poor men just get their signals mixed up, to how this was just a funny joke, to one guy slut shaming her, to the 'what about the man', to another declaring that it was just comedy and she's taken it the wrong way, to another inventing that the whole thing including the photo was a set up and pretend (despite Franken coming out and admitting what he did - the whole story has been rewritten). One of my favourites by a fellow named I3Iessed in the Daily KoS link I posted above:

    When clearly communicated by an individual to another, harassment and sexual aggression is wrong always and should be called out and treated. But, Human relationships are complicated. And people do things they do not realize will have certain impacts or will be perceived certain ways by others (Do not tell me you never did something that crossed the line with some one, only to find out afterwards). Moore was warned numerous times, reported and called out by businesses and families, but he just kept on with his dirty, pedo ways.

    Franken, in the midst of an sexually charged entertainment tour with a fellow entertainer, made a bad choice in how he tried to show his attraction to this women. He clearly understands the gravity of it now. But to treat this anything like anything more than an awkward and poor interaction between two sexually active adults is ridiculous, especially considering the women even states she agreed to a physical kiss in the skit, until either more voices come out or more concrete evidence surfaces.

    See how the narrative has changed? Completely leaving out the fact that she was forced and coerced into the whole rehearsal. And the whole 'this was just a poor interaction between two sexually active people'.. This was just a human relationship gone wrong. These are the same people who are (correctly mind you) calling Moore a pedophile. But then this happens with Franken and we see the results above.

    It literally does my head in. It's the same type of goddamn excuses we see from the Moore camp and his supporters.

    Moore belongs in prison and frankly, the mouth breathing yokels who are voting for him are probably not far behind. But what absolutely shits me about this issue is that people are becoming the embodiment of rape culture and supporting rape culture because of partisan politics.

    I don't think we need an era with HD cameras. I think we need an era where these people are brought into the light and shamed for their behaviour and those who go to such lengths to condone it and excuse it, should be equally shamed and frankly, politics be damned.

    I am sick and tired of having this issue being passed around like a political football. And I am sick and tired of seeing women abused and shamed for daring to come out because of politics. The narrative is no longer about the victim, but about the abuser as each side tries to defend their own and they will both happily drag the victims down to the gutter to do it.

    The right blames Clinton. Pfft. This rubbish has been going on for a lot longer than Clinton and their hands are just as dirty as everyone else's are. In other words, no one gets to point fingers on this issue. Both sides are as dirty as the other.
     
  14. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

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    I'm not sure that Moore and Franken are 100% comparable, if for no other reason than that Franken accepted responsibility, apologized for his actions, and has generally acted like he was actually repentant in all this. Moore, on the other hand, has doubled down on being a dickbag.

    It doesn't excuse what has been done, certainly - however, I think the way they are reacting shows the difference.
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    I'm not saying it is comparable.

    My comment was aimed more at their supporters. Moore.. Well, there are no words to describe his despicable nature and yes, Franken did accept responsibility of sorts and apologised profusely.

    Moore belongs in prison, and he should be labeled a child sex offender. His accusers all tell a very similar story. One of a sexual predator, who preyed on them, groomed them and then attempted to "date" them, because they were so young. So no, they aren't comparable.

    But if we are to take sexual harassment and assault seriously, then we need to address the whole thing regardless of politics and that will never happen. Because women's bodies are once again political fodder for both sides. The partisan politics is making a mockery of what victims endure and go through and hell, it's helping pile more on.
     
  16. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    I've struggled with misandry for much of my life. The reasons for such in the first place are far too numerous to cite, and it's far too easy to come up with rationalizations supporting this bias: violent crimes, rape, child molestation, sense of entitlement, total disregard for all other forms of life (also, often, humans as well), etc. While such are hardly exclusively attributes of men, they are overwhelmingly so, nonetheless.

    I've really tried to keep it in check, but then something comes along and fuels my animosity. I mean, Al Franken? This is difficult to grapple with.
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    No, it wasn't - not only unclear, but unlikely. An abuse of power and privilege, a deficit of ethics and grown man responsibility, at a minimum - but no harassment was even alleged.
    There's no equivalence. Any discussion of an American political issue in which the phrase "both sides" appears is probably bullshit.
    I've heard nothing about him yet that belongs in the same conversation as Roy Moore, or Harvey Weinstein, or D0nald Trump for that matter. There may be another few shoes to drop, this radio host's accusation may be the tip of a bad berg, but so far that's the whole thing - and it's being exaggerated, not downplayed, by the major media and the Democratic Party and a whole slew of liberals. What's up with that?
     
  18. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    Absolutely. Moore, Weinstein and Trump all belong in prison.

    Franken's actions weren't criminal, but they were certainly creepy and disrespectful. That said, I am also somewhat perplexed by the "exaggerated" reaction by some: with Trump, this "issue" popped up a year ago, and again, just recently--how has the fact that Trump is a serial predator not remained in the headlines every single freakin' day? Sure, being a serial sexual assailant is but one of his innumerable crimes and they've (the media) got to make time for everything else, but Trump's misogyny and predation are who he is, they're hardly just a byline.

    Moreover, while recent polls seem to suggest that most idiots believe Weinstein's accusers, they are disinclined to believe Trump's accusers. This was certainly not the case a year ago, when only 14 percent polled (Gallup, I think) believed that Trump was innocent of sexual assault--but they still voted for him! What the fuck?!
     
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    [#TheWomenAreSpeaking]

    This is the back and forth that terrifies everyone in so-called, self-proclaimed enlightened spheres of American politics. It becomes a political question because it must.

    Everybody kind of knows this is how it goes, but at the same time, "my side of the aisle" is as merely human as anyone else. That I'm not listening to a bunch of tinfoil conspiracism taking place just outside the main discourse in otherwise familiar political contexts is my own choice; it's kind of scary to attend.

    And, yes, we all see how this is going to shake out.

    And yes, it must. That is part of the point.

    The women are speaking.

    My job in all this is to listen, read, pay attention, and learn.

    There will be a time to speak, but for right now shit is either changing or not, and that part isn't my decision. It would behoove me, and benefit everyone in my society, to not go fucking up that transformation just to feel like I'm somehow empowered.

    I would ask Sen. Franken's supporters, for instance, to bear one particular point in mind as this goes forward: He actually knows what he's doing at this point. He got himself into this, and now he needs to get himself through this, and one of the things he knows is that he does not get to choose where he lands, this time. Thus, to use "showbiz": Look, I recognize that behavior, and am willing to use the word "sophomoric", but that is as much as either Mr. Franken or myself can push. There is a question of what passes muster in showbiz, and that absolutely needs to be settled. Furthermore, what we might, in a prior time, have written off as sophomoric bullshit boys club behavior according to the irreverence of comedic showbiz, is not ours or his to define in the moment. As a matter of showbiz, Al Franken now intends to hit as many of his marks as he can as he tumbles, and that is, quite literally, all he can do.

    There is a conspiracist bacchanal taking place way too close to the main discourse; the damnedest thing is that his job either is becoming or already something along the lines of calculating this argument and then quashing it on the grounds that they are ostensibly his supporters and need to shut the fuck up and learn the lessons. Paradoxically, the last thing he needs on this graceless arc is empowerment.

    This is the time in which Al Franken needs to keep his head bowed, simply hit his marks, and do his job, and "what he gets in return" is as mysterious a notion as it would be foul demand.

    I also need to make the point that this post should be somewhere between four and six words long. The problematic consideration is what those words convey in the context of their intended audience. Generally, that is to say:

    Gentlemen, hush. The women are speaking.
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Both the women initially speaking about Franken voted for Trump, apparently. Is that part of their message?
    Is the pattern of comparative media response in the male-owned media something that men can talk about - even if it's being fronted by hired women?
    Is the Republican false equivalence approach - central in every other significant issue facing this country's news media - something men in particular cannot talk about in this matter?
    If the Republican men drag out Bill Clinton, connect him to Franken by Party, and prop all their former lies about him in front of the issue, thereby helping Roy Moore get elected to the Senate and quite possibly Franken removed, may other men comment on this tactic?
    Does Kellyanne Conway count as a women speaking on this issue, before whose gender-specific insights we men must remain silent - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPE1GiiVwAAqxOd.jpg ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    [#TheWomenAreSpeaking]

    You don't get to set the terms for what the women say. Nor do I. The ... women ... are ... speaking.
     
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    I don't get to set the terms for what anybody says, ever. That's not the question.
    And the Republicans. And the owners of the major media, via their hired help.
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    #takeanote | #TheWomenAreSpeaking

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Click to seek love: How about some coffee, and, y'know, do that li'l thing I like.

    Okay, let me try it this way:

    Those are as fine of questions as they might be, and we are not stopping for them at this time.

    Not the question? Whatever.
     

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