# Robots are going to take over

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Eidolan, Oct 30, 2008.

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1. ### billvonValued Senior Member

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I disagree. Any machine is only as good as its inputs. If its inputs are mortgage default details during good economic times, the machine's outputs will only be valid during good economic times.

The idea that machines can more accurately predict things like market trends, foreclosure rates, citrus crops etc than people is attractive, but history has demonstrated that that is not so.

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good point.

5. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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Close to what I would define learning as.
Yes you can set up this straw horse and knock it down easily; but I never made any such claims. In fact many times I stated the humans were more versatile, etc.
No, but again I never said they were.
Again no I don't think or suggest connection machines are, or ever will be able to, achieve what can be considered AI.
Your "if" condition is false, but if there were a one to one correspondence then yes a connection machine would be at least as big as a small house.

It is precisely to try to avoid one reaching the conclusion that connection machines are artificial neural networks, ANNs, that I refuse (perhaps the only human still so stubborn) to call them neural networks. They don't resemble in any meaning full way the neural network of even a bat's brain. Which BTW can do some processing of acoustical information in real time that man’s best computers, filling a typical two person office room would need at least an hour to achieve. (Or may be too complex for man to ever write code for a digital machine that can do what the bat does in real time? For example a bat can not only tell which of dozens of bugs in a cluster of flying bugs is the tasty one from 25 feet away, but optimize his complexly changing sequence of chirps for tracking that one bug! Note he needs to make three Doppler frequency adjustments: one as the chirp source (the bat) is moving, one for the bug's motions, and one for his later motion from a different location as the echo returns! That much man can understand and do but that is the easy part of the bat's processing.)

Rather than directly reply to rest of your post I remind you that my ONLY reason for making any reply was to correct your errors, intended or not, as I am the self appointed "Sheriff of Nonsense" at Sciforums and also that I have never claimed connection machines can do any of the straw horses you have destroyed.

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2011

7. ### fedr8081100101Valued Senior Member

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Okay, if you never made a claim that ANN's have comparable learning capabilities. Then why say this:

yet you later quoted me
To which you replied:

. Were talking about artificial intelligence which is a hypothetical prerequisite to a robotic "takeover" as per the OP. If AI is a prerequisite then it requires the heuristic abilities, some creativity, and significant flexibility. This isn't about me, its about the artificial intelligence and the construction of such a thing.

Look, when I made my whole argument about size and efficiency of a large scale ANN you snapped back with the completely irrelevent argument that a chip can be made much smaller then the human brain. A completely irrelevent red herring, if you want to cite that as an argument in this discussion then I will cite the dust mite who has a much, much, much smaller brain/nervous system.

Really? Because thus far you have conceded to my points and corrected YOURSELF far more often then you have corrected me. Actually, you never even corrected ANY error I made in the original statement that triggered this impotent retaliation of yours.

You have all but explicitly conceded my original conclusion, now, are you done wasting my time?

8. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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you are putting words in my mouth I never claimed that connection machines have "comparable learning capabilities" That partial quote from post 95 is clearly speaking of only the task the machine was trained on. Here is the paragraph you quoted the end of:

"... {connection machines} don’t suffer from greed for loan placement fee or the smile of a pretty girl, etc. They just use loan repayment histories to decide. Note no human programed the machine to make these decisions - It learned how to decide. The very same machine (with different inputs and historic data) could learn to give advice to person 1 about marrying person 2. etc. THE MACHINE LEARNS, how to decide. ..."

Obviously I am telling that the machine's ability is NOT comparable to a humans as it can ONLY decide on the class of problems it was trained on.

To twist the few final summary words in to a claim of being comparable learning capabilities is a gross distortion of what I said.

You also claim you have corrected my posts, but unlike me when making the claim that you made several errors, you do not even list one. I listed several of your errors and explained why what you stated was wrong. In one sentence you made three separate false claims. After they were refuted, I said in jest: "Three strikes and you are OUT"

Please give at least one false statement I made. I don't think there is even one, but I can repeat a list of at least five you made.

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2011
9. ### spidergoatValued Senior Member

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Those little RC helicopters are doing amazing things. There is a video on newscientist.com that shows three of them working to assemble a structure. They sound just like large bees.

10. ### fedr8081100101Valued Senior Member

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Wow, you just don't give up do you?

Billy T are you really trying to pick a losing fight?

By the way, your example about marriage, it would never work, ANN's tend to stop working well when you have too many inputs, and the amount of inputs, variables, etc... for a marriage are massive.

And that is why as I said in my original point, which you called an error:

Billy T, you literally are saying the exact same thing I said from the beginning.

You accepted my conclusion and henceforth, I win. Now, are you done wasting my time? Please stop trying to twist words to fit your argument, when it gets to the point where you are twisting your own words around rather then mine it becomes pathetic.

Every time you tried to correct an error your explanation was either erroneous, off topic, or bad science.

11. ### Billy TUse Sugar Cane Alcohol car FuelValued Senior Member

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True you could probably collect a couple of hundred facts that might be important to predicting the success or failure of a planned marriage. (That would be more information than a marriage councilor usually has available, but is conceivable.) But 200 inputs would still less than the data collected for the connection machine that was used to improve the consistence of the paper produced by a paper factory.

There is very little cost (less than a dollar, at most) to adding another input node to a connection machine, much less than the cost of the transducers that convert physical facts into electrical voltages. I already gave many of the facts that were transduced to voltages for the paper plant's production. (Things like pH, temperatures, flow rates, etc. at many dozens of points along the process, including the final drying rollers speeds etc.) I forget how many input nodes were used, but certainly more than 200.

Your statement that "ANNs tend to stop working well when you have too many inputs, …" is more unsupported false nonsense.

Remember that once the connection machine has been trained, the connection weights between all pairs of nodes are known. Thus, the connection machine can be replaced by a resistor divider network with each resistor's value inversely related to the known connection strength between the corresponding pairs of nodes.

Thus you are stating that a resistor divider network ceases to properly divide the current flow if there are too many resistors - Clearly more nonsense!

-------------------

I was never in a contest with you but if you want to claim that “you won”, that is fine with me. From my every first post until this last one I have ONLY been correcting your errors (as Sciforum’s “Sheriff of Nonsense”). You have kept me quite busy as in each of your new posts, like the one I am now correcting, you tend to make at least another nonsense statement.

You say you have corrected my posts more than I have corrected yours, but you continue to ignore my request for you to list even one false statement I have made – that is understandable as there are none. I.e. that claim of yours is also false.
Normally I continue to correct nonsense I notice but on a few occasions as Sheriff of Nonsense, I have given up after many tries to get the poster to understand his errors. You are diving me close to that point now.

Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2011
12. ### fedr8081100101Valued Senior Member

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I said "working well" for a reason mr. Billy T "nonsense". That is all I said and all I meant.

Yah, right, sheriff of nonsense, like that BS you believe about Russian jets. Class A bull.

You lost billy T, you literally admitted my original point over again. Instead of wasting my time mr. Sheriff, just give up, its getting to be pathetic.

You are not the sheriff of nonsense, please. Just because you pinned a dinky plastic gold star onto your chest means nothing. Your know it all attitude plus your overinflated ego leads to your erroneous "facts". Every single error you corrected your correction was either irrelevent, idiotic, or wrong, and for many of them you later CONCEDED that I was right in the first place and that you were merely wasting time.

Pathetic.

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AHHH THe Machines!!! Press the delete sequence button!!!

$\frac{4\pi}{\frac{3\pi}{\frac{2\pi}{\pi}}} = \frac{sqrt{4}}{\frac{\sqrt{3}}{\frac{\sqrt{2}}{2}$

14. ### fedr8081100101Valued Senior Member

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haha. good point. Just get them to solve for pi and it should go into an infinite loop filling up all DRAM space and soon taking up hdd space eventually wearing down and breaking the hdd.

15. ### smashingrobotsRobotsRegistered Senior Member

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Nobody knows the future of robots, what you can do is to make predictions

16. ### fedr8081100101Valued Senior Member

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ummm... okay?

Kind of obvious. If we can't predict the weather 12 hours ahead with any degree of accuracy how do you expect us to predict something else generations into the future?

17. ### PeteIt's not rocket surgeryRegistered Senior Member

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Something that did that would be a computer, not an AI. An AI might get bored after a while and dump the task, or tell you after a while that the task is beyond it, or even just tell you to go f&@# yourself!
But we can!
Predictions can always be made... How good they are is the tricky thing.

Generally speaking, any good prediction will have a particular probability distribution attached (but popular media doesn't like that - which is why weather forecasts get a bad rap), and the further ahead the prediction the broader the distribution.

But for technosociocultural forecasts like the theme of this thread... I suspect you're pretty much right. It seems difficult (impossible?) to separate the good predictions (if there are any) from the wild-ass guesses.

Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
18. ### fedr8081100101Valued Senior Member

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Really? We can predict the weather to the third or even fifth significant figure (after decimel point). Bull. Look, where I live it can snow in february and hail in the end of april.

We cannot predict the weather with a significant degree of reliability, what percentage of weather predictions are erroneous?

But the fact is were humans, we look to the future, we base our future off what we can do in the present from what we learned in the past.

Human beings live in three different times, if we weren't to try and predict the future then we would not be who we are.

19. ### PeteIt's not rocket surgeryRegistered Senior Member

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No, but that's not what you said. You said it can't be predicted "with any degree of accuracy"... which is Bull.
And that can be predicted at some probability level 12 hours in advance.

What, the actual predictions with error bars, or the media sanitized versions?
Either way, you'll find a statistically significant correlation between forecasts and measurements.

20. ### fedr8081100101Valued Senior Member

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Im saying relative to many of the problems in science. No electrical engineer working on a 28 nm chip would accept two significant digits let alone the accuracy of weather prediction.

Im not saying its not accurate, what I am saying is that it is not nearly as accurate other forms of science would demand.

21. ### PeteIt's not rocket surgeryRegistered Senior Member

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Perhaps you're confusing accuracy with precision. How precisely can an engineer predict the ultimate tensile strength of a particular beam?

22. ### fedr8081100101Valued Senior Member

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you know what pete, I'm done with debating accuracy and precision and what not.

Its all contextual and relative.

23. ### birchValued Senior Member

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i was just watching a movie called "time of eve" and it's about a society that has robots mingling with people. they function a lot like maids.

when robots are made to look and function like people, there could be some psychological issues with living people in how they view them and how they treat them. even if they are not actual feeling beings, the problem with treating them like objects with no respect can turn into a mindframe of abuse of robots. in some way, they can be the discriminated. the irony is even though it has not real effect on the robot, it can have an effect on people's thinking process and perhaps not always for the positive.

the more sophisticated the robot and look to function like living beings, they may need some rights or laws to protect them or at least treat them with some level of dignity.