Retry at "Meaning of Love Thread" Please don't mess it up

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Riomacleod, Sep 2, 2003.

  1. ele Registered Senior Member

    there is real love too. when you will be your partners friend, mother, lover, mistress, wife, play-mate, companion, and mind, heart, experience and life sharer.
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  3. Riomacleod Registered Senior Member


    1 and 5 are based off poor english skills. One does not love fishing. One likes fishing a lot. In fact, love is NOT the superlative of like. Love /= really really really really enjoy.

    So, mr chemically speaking, at the best, can you give us examples? Or are you just going to hand wave and run off? Any evidence at ALL supporting that love is only chemical reactions?

    Wading through the poor language, 2,3, and 4 are all love. You can love friends, you can love parents, you can love siblings and you can love your current partner, and they're not excluded by your definition of "people I trust".
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  5. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Your posts betray your ignorence of philosophy and art history, if I read them I'd not be able to resist the urge to bludgeon you.

    What is the good, then?
    The good is expressed as fundamental order.
    What is the good?
    The good is the good.


    Read up on some basic neuroanatomy. Or google "dopamine +and romantic love" or something like that.
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  7. Riomacleod Registered Senior Member

    Xev, it has begun to amaze me that you actually moderate these forums. Especially when it doesn't take much to get you to drop the gloves and try to flame someone instead.

    In the interest of not being bludgeoned by a mod, I'll go ahead and re-explain the logic again.

    In the infinite species of matter, all types exhibit attraction to one another.
    We call that attraction gravity.

    In the infinite types of species in the universe, there is fundamental, simple order.
    We call that fundamental order "the good".

    I've yet to figure out why you have such a hard time wrapping your mind around what is pretty simple logic. Maybe I'll upload some pictures, would that help?

    I don't disagree that the brain has chemistry, Xev. I'm not a mysticist, but I question which is the cause of which. Looking from the bottom up, you can say that dopamine "causes" the feeling of love (Of course, I argue that the feeling of desire and arousal isn't love, but we can attempt to ignore that for the time). From a top-down approach, you can say that love is causing the release of dopamine levels.
  8. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    Yes! This thread is back up and running. Seeing it gather dust did not sit too well with me.

    I don't think so. If you really do believe the only true love is one with a lover then you've been hoodwinked. Your theories are disposable, disposable88.

    I'll meet you halfway. The only eye-sore in that is the loose use of 'good'.

    Eureka. I used to buy into 'sex soup' (endorphins and dopamine mixing in the blood) in my hard core science days but I've come to find there's a different surge when I o-g and when Beethoven is playing his sonnatas. There's a differernce between the feel and afterfeel of mindless debauchary and that of being with a lover.

    Granted I haven't found my equal to really give me the feelings I find in beauty but that's beside the point.

    I have a deeper feel for animals than I do humans. If anything I hate most people (and would like to hack them with chainsaws). I get terrible pangs seeing roadkill. Is it just chemicals?

    What's to say what does what? Is it only a matter of dopamine and estrogen metabolites making me cry for a dead relative or even roadkill, or is my feel for this relative or animals what's filling my brain up with chemicals?

    I stand behind Stirner. I think he knew what I can't put in words.
  9. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Who did I "flame"?
    Please try to keep the jargon correct, since you choose to use jargon.

    You're trying for Neo-Platonism. Not bad - I always had a fondness for it. The attempt at a "grand unified theory" for philosophy is admirable at least.

    *Waits patiently for Riomacleod to look up "NeoPlatonism", misunderstand it and come back to argue that Heidigger was a neoplatonist*

    Alls you had to say is that you're going back to the Neoplatonists instead of subjecting me to your inept explanations. See how easy it is? And you don't humiliate yourself saying silly things like "Benthem was a Romantic"

    Good was debatable. Generally the Good was the, hmm, essence of the essences - or the set of the essences. Admittedly vauge.

    I'd say it's the structure of the emotion causing the emotion to be felt, if that makes any sense.

    But why "just chemicals"? Why is it intimidating to think that the universe is purely physical?
  10. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

    I agree with you insofar as our culture in general is vapid and passionless, but I would suggest that entwining love and sex is still very much a part of that culture (as a whole) rather than the opposite. There are elements of our culture which plead otherwise, but the majority still retain the idea, and this plays its own part in keeping passion under lock and key.

    Not only have I felt desire for women I didn't particularly like, but that desire can sometimes even be inflamed by it. Then it merely comes down to physical attraction. On the occasions I've taken this further, the passion produced has sometimes been far more intense than any in a "love" relationship.

    I believe this type of desire or attraction has more to do with the establishment of a power relationship, but I suppose that's not really the subject at hand. What it does indicate is that sex and love can be intertwined, but are not universally so.

    ...On further reflection, love and hate are not so far apart as to be mutually exclusive. More thought needed.
  11. Xev Registered Senior Member

    "Sex is best with someone you hate, but I prefer masturbation to any of it"
    -G.G Allin

    Hatred is probably the best fuel there is for sexual desire.

    I don't disagree with you, Marquis. I disagree with Riomacleod's assertion that one often finds oneself attracted in a meaningful way to those we know nothing of.
  12. Riomacleod Registered Senior Member

    What in the hell are you talking about? I haven't made any such assertion. If you have such problems with my logic and understanding, the least you can do is actually refer to things that I may have said.
  13. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    So then its a biological structure that triggers the hurt I feel for roadkill? the deceased?a soprano? my sore spot for animals?

    I can turn the tables. Is my hate for most people chemically induced?

    Sounds like a trumped up charge. Elaborate.

    Because it'd be easier not to without intellect.

    Knowledge is power sure, but its the surest means to put a human in doubt also.

    (you know what? I've had this fantasy for YEARS about getting raped like Dominique was by Roark. No fuzzy moo moo I wuuv you's flowery phone calls.....just grabbing me and splitting right through me in hate for the act because you'll only have me like an animal would :: drooling::. )

    I've said this about marriage and the same goes for the misnomer of a 'loving relationship': Its all an anticlimactic dump. That's why sex with a lesser is stimulating.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2003
  14. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    You folks have no clue how interesting 'sex soup' is to me. Are these 'feelings' even in abstract only chemical?

    Is that all? Can't be. What I feel feels conceptually elusive. But then when I get to thinking on whether love and hate are not 'mutually exclusive'............ the end result is uncomfortably animalistic.

    I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that I brought something new to the table for the lot of you to help me with:

    Is my hate for most people chemically induced?

    It seems that threads in having always been directed towards "love" always ended up getting nowhere, perhaps focusing on "hate" would have vouchsafed something new for a change.

    Come come now..........any thoughts?
  15. Xev Registered Senior Member

    It's a good question and I don't think anyone really knows. I think that we see a thing, we process the information, we feel in accordence to the way our mind is set up. But this is just my own hypothesis.

    To the extent that everything is chemically induced. I'm a materialist through and through.
    Although I've been wondering recently if it's partly a reaction to the way they smell. I literally dislike the stench (and I don't just mean that they smell bad, but artificial as well) most humans exude, especially in public places where they congregate.

    I think it's common. Let's face it, who feels affection during coitus?
    No. You either want to tear their throat out or be brought down by them. Romantic love is degrading and violent - of course the physical expression is even more so.
  16. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    Sure is. And your theory blows chunks.

    I can pull a Mother Teresa and dupe myself into benevolence, I can convince myself of a soul, I can feel what I feel as a being seperate from the material world but boy oh boy is it a fucking let down to see a skull cracked open and find that behind all the 'magic' is a long piece of gray worm coiled up like a wad of wet garbage.

    No shit. I was once also. Weinberger, Sagan, Gould, Nietzche, James, and Sartre(moo) among others did it to me. But now I'm channeling all my energies to other higher forms of insanity. I might end up being a hopeless materialist somewhere in my fifties again.

    Anyway, having read this:
    ........I tried to envision a prole at Walmart and then tried to imagine what the brute smelled like. I came up with something like raw cow hide that trailed off and landed somewhere around a bushel of Durian fruit.
    Had to be a horrible bias so I smelled my family. Nothing. And at the gas station I actually tried to smell the guy paying in front of me. Nothing there too. You had me doing weird things Xev.

    So I don't think its smell. Its more the image of a mouth wide open and the frown of confusion when I use big words that has me hating them. Its their finding out that I sound like something other than a doormat as if its some fucking surprise that keeps me hating them.

    True enough. But at least the physical act of fucking gives you something to work with. Fuck love.......fuck me and stop talking about it.
  17. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Only upsets me in that it means I'm going to die and there's going to be no more shit to do. That sucks.

    I find myself abandoning science as well - that sort of thinking. I want to become stark raving mad, ala Neitzsche in his last days or the Marquis de Sade.

    Absolutely stark raving mad. Fuck methodology up its tight little ass.

    No shit. For me it's been an ongoing process since hearing "wow! what a big word for a little girl" during grade school.
    This is why we need killer androids to kill all the idiots.

    Still, part of you wants tenderness. Not in sex but in a relationship. Snuggle and come up with psychotic plans to kill all the assholes. Shit, I don't know if it's my hormones or what but there are days that I'd kill to meet an equal who loved me.
  18. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    Go where the voices direct you, I say.
    Ha. I know. And its on those days when I've come up with some mind blowing brilliant idea that, amazingly, I would like to share with someone and then finding the usual lazy brutes this 'pining' makes 'normalcy' so much uglier.

    I call it either "romantic bullshatta" or "window period between periods". I don't know.

    But a psycho to stroke my psychosis, a living being to suck me in and me do that to him dilute the madness....... My Equal....shit.

    Know what Xev? This 'equal' does not sound possible.
  19. Xev Registered Senior Member

    They tell me to drive out the French invaders! Freedom fries for all!

    Hell fuzzy yeah. Shit, thank god for friends.

    Shit, the only way to handle it is to call it hormonal crap.

    Too good to be true.
    Is this because it's too good to be true or we can't allow ourselves to hope?
    Hell, another psycho. Wouldn't you do just about anything for that if you allowed yourself to believe in it?
  20. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    Actually, "friends" (blah) on my end can't even fill that hole. You could drive a motherfucking truck through this annoying little hole of mine.

    Hmm. Would I do just about anything? I'd kill myself first if ever I found I sold myself short and I haven't...........yet.

    There are two me's. A prole me that wallowed mindlessly before the 'enlightenment' and the ueberme that the sophies and sciences have molded. I've sold myself before and believe me the taste it leaves in your mouth is a bad one that stays long after the meal's been shitted. Know what I mean? And so now this ueberme wonders if its left to live out its life out playing with playthings or if it will ever know the calming bliss of being tamed.

    The contrast makes the harder look waaaay bigger.

    So I won't sell myself short ever again. I don't think I'd do anything. But the madness would be nice "shared' for a while.

    And I'm assuming you'd do anything.....?
  21. Xev Registered Senior Member

    You think I have anything but the internet?
    Yeah, I have "friends" - the sort that you share a beer and talk about metal with. And maybe they know a good band, but that's it. That's fucking it.

    I never sold myself for affection, not from a man. I'm not sure if I've sold myself to be liked - if I ever did, it was long ago.
    Used to hate myself for not being a prole. When I first started really thinking, I hated myself for hating myself. I'm not sure if it really weighs on me. Yeah, part of me wants to be "liked". Not by them but by my own kind...shit, I just want my own kind.

    Can't empathize with wanting to be tamed. Abused yes, but tamed would dull my claws.

    To find such a person? Don't know if "anything" is right, but it'd make my solitude unbearable to think that maybe, just maybe, out there is a fellow psycho.
  22. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    Bloody hell......pardon, but not being at home and having to pop in and out like this in a hurry makes for garish typoes.
    Should have read "The contrast makes the holelook waaaay bigger

    No, I don't think all you have is binary code to keep warm. And neither do I. We're in the same hole it seems, foreverever locked with this pesky habit of putting 'friends' in quotations. Browsing.
    Ditto. That's. Fucking. It. and puh-pity.

    I *have* sold myself. I was the insecure girly slime laughing when things weren't funny and wondering what my *hair flip * boyfriend thought about me. Its awful, Xev, and the idea that you having never been a 'prole' is what puts you rungs above me. I envy your childhood. Even goths- I can't stand them and would love nothing more than to pull that dyed hair out one by one by the roots but at least they're in on the game of reality and awake enough to be fucking depressed about it.

    Don't ever change.
    Actually, not that I'd like anyone to tame me (cringe)(impossible) but someone that could magically turn the noise down, if you follow. My mind is hellishly.........noisy.
  23. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Yup, but I don't know anyone "aware" in real life. Fucking shame.

    You survive. You do what you need.
    You know those slutty girls who'll tell sex jokes just to remind everyone that they exist? Moi. You know the person at the edge of a crowd whose always trying to make themself noticed and useful? Moi. I would've killed for them to like me.
    Shit, I wanted to be normal. Wasn't till Nietzsche bitch-slapped me out of my wanting that I learned shit about anything.

    "Hold me and tell me what I want to hear and fuck my overused brains out."

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