# Responsibility of the Theist

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by superluminal, Apr 21, 2010.

1. ### CptBorkRobbing the Shalebridge CradleValued Senior Member

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No, it's NeverFly's word against the words you chose out of a book that was given to you by fallible humans.

3. ### DoreenValued Senior Member

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And they start off with 'My God is real'?

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It's true, you're doing the best you can...it's why pity is so often shown on my part rather than utter disdain. And know this, I could wreak havoc if I had a mind too.

7. ### kiraValued Senior Member

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Actually the insecurity of the goverment stem from the country's dark history. In 1965, the Communist Party in Indonesia (PKI, which previously wanted to change the country into Soviet Republic of Indonesia) did coup which involved the killing of army generals and their families. They wanted to change the Republic into an atheistic communist country. I have posted something about it in another thread:

This is why the people in my country are afraid of atheism and communism (although I think these two are mutually exclusive). The laws which regulate the religious practices specifically ban certain religious activities. The Law on the prevention of religion abuse 1/PNPS/1965, for example, specifies that the official acceptable faiths to be practiced in the countries are: Islam, Protestant, Catholic, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism (sorry, that wiki link is written in Indonesian, and as I switch to the English version, it isn't about the same topic).

Then, there is also Undang-Undang Nomor 23 Tahun 2006 (it is a pdf, in Indonesian) about the citizenship administration, which basically says that citizens who doesn't belong to the official religions can't apply for citizen ID (in citizen ID, your religion is written). You know what happened when you have no citizen ID, means you can't apply for bank account, driving license, passport, etc. There is no "none" option in the religion part of the citizen ID application form, and you aren't allowed to leave it blank either

So if you are an atheist by faith, just pick one religion randomly

There is no following consequences by stating that you are muslim, christian, or whatever. That's just it.

There are a number of cases of imprisonment of vocal figures which questioning this situation. For example, HB Jassin publish a short novel (1968) whose character was an atheist (the character in the novel, not himself, is an atheist), and he is jailed for that. Then, Arswendo Atmowiloto (1999) making questionnaire about the most admired figures (I wasn't sure what's wrong with the questionnaire, but this was seen as against religious law), he was also jailed for that. One guy, Yusman Roy (2005) introducing how to pray in bilingual way (Indonesian and Arabic) and the Lia Eden mocking the Quran (2006, 2008), both are currently in jail also for those activities.

This doesn't mean that our country is extremely oppresive though. Our democracy is only 12 years old, because from 1965-1998, we have only one same president (reign for 33 years) which established those religious laws. He was however quite respected, because during his regime the country is kind of peaceful and economically stronger. When he reigned, 1 USD ~ 2000 Rupiah, after he left we had this inflation up to 1 USD ~ 10000 Rupiah; the current level is 1 USD ~ 9000 Rupiah (current government is doing good job each and everyday). Or maybe it's the USD that is weakening.....

There was an ongoing discussion in the constitutional court (this time the link is in English, see below) to remove some discriminative religious laws, but I think it's going to be a long way (it has been rejected by the court). Our soceity is quite conservative.

Indonesia rejects religions law review
By Karishma Vaswani
BBC News, Jakarta
Monday, 19 April 2010

Human Rights groups have criticised Indonesia's decision to uphold the controversial 1967 blasphemy law.

They say it threatens religious freedom in the most populous Muslim nation.

On Monday, Indonesia's constitutional court decided in favour of the law, thwarting hopes it would be reviewed to allow new religions and sects.

Only six faiths are officially recognised in Indonesia - Catholic and Protestant Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and Confucianism.

The international rights watchdog, Human Rights Watch says Indonesia's Constitutional court has dealt a blow to religious freedom with its decision to uphold the blasphemy law.

Limits to freedom

"The Constitutional Court's decision on the blasphemy law poses a real threat to the beliefs of Indonesia's religious minorities," said Elaine Pearson, deputy Asia director at Human Rights Watch.

"If President Yudhoyono is serious about promoting religious pluralism in Indonesia, he should work to have this law and others like it taken off the books," she said.

The group added that the decision could threaten the rights of minorities in the world's most populous Muslim nation.

According to reports the US Commission on International Religious Freedom said that blasphemy laws often cause tension between religious communities.

If Indonesia's constitutional court had overturned the law, other religions would have been allowed to practice freely here.

Conservative groups feared this would open the door to liberal interpretations of Islam being recognised.

In Indonesia both the Sunni and Shia forms of Islam are accepted, but opponents say the law remains unfair and vague.

They say that in its current form it can be used to discriminate against religious groups that fundamentalist Muslim groups dislike.

The majority of Indonesia's 235 million strong population are moderate Sunni Muslims, with a reputation for tolerance. ​

Omg, this has to be the longest post I have ever written

Last edited: Apr 23, 2010
8. ### iceauraValued Senior Member

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Generally speaking, whenever Abrahamic fundamentalists - almost all Muslims by upbringing seem to be fundamentalists - start talking about "atheists", what they say should be taken warily by the inexperienced.

In this case, maybe the following would be right place to lodge the first questions:

So what is why? You suffered one of the worst massacres of the 20th century at the hands of non-atheist non-communists, lived under oppressive non-atheist non-communist strongman military rule for decades afterwards, never suffered a day under bad rule by atheists or communists, and you are afraid of atheism and communism?

The viewpoint from the other side of the "Indonesian holocaust" was somewhat different:
http://www.hrsolidarity.net/mainfile.php/2005vol15no06/2464/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_September_Movemen
http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/india/indonesia1965.htm
http://www.namebase.org/scott.html
And the takeaway is: we have another example of the tendency of theists to gloss over, overlook, or even hide, their own beliefs and actions; not comparing different belief systems or belief-associated behaviors, which would begin by acknowledging what their defended system holds and does.

Last edited: Apr 23, 2010
9. ### jayleewWho CaresValued Senior Member

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No, wisdom comes from experience. Knowledge comes from study and testing. This is one of my issues with theists, many are wise, but they lack in knowledge or are just ignorant of what is not the truth because of faith.

10. ### jayleewWho CaresValued Senior Member

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This is the curse of knowledge, coupled with wisdom. It's tiring at times to continue to keep an open mind. I'm afraid though that in all this worrying about having 100% proof that we might miss something. Yes, we have to accept that we won't have 100% proof of anything. Whether or not it is reasonable to go with the 99% depends on so many things. THis is a problem with me and my beliefs in a god. It is because I can't do what so many theists do. They don't commit when the going gets tough. What one of the disciples did not deny Jesus Christ in the story? People are no different today. I was that way, but now I choose to not be so wishy-washy. God exists or he doesn't. If I ever get that 100%, then I will die for what I believe in. As it is now, I'm not willing to die for it. How much value is something that you aren't willing to die for? If you follow Christ, you are commanded to give up your life and follow him. I won't do that unless Christ exists. Anything less would be false.

11. ### CptBorkRobbing the Shalebridge CradleValued Senior Member

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Well then why don't you go ahead and wreak havoc instead of just sitting there yapping about it?

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You're kidding right? Do you not know why--or are you feigning ignorance?

13. ### CptBorkRobbing the Shalebridge CradleValued Senior Member

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I honestly have no idea what kind of havoc you're even talking about, so please inform me. Then I'll probably ask you to put your money where your mouth is and demonstrate it, but I'll wait for you to describe it first.

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Of you course you don't...the fact of the matter is, you're not paying attention...you've wandered down a rabbit trail i.e. the notion of 'wreaking havoc'; this incidental reference occupies your attention to the exclusion of the substance of my comments. Confound it Watson, lose the blinders!... re-read through the exchange and ferret out the meaning of what I've said.

Last edited: Apr 23, 2010
15. ### CptBorkRobbing the Shalebridge CradleValued Senior Member

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Here's my understanding of your comments: You're saying we should take you for a divine messenger, and I'm saying my neighbour is as close to being a prophet as you are. You said you could wreak havoc if you "had a mind too [sic]", and I assume you said that to try and back your point, so now I'm asking you to elaborate on what this "havoc" is and why it has any relevance to the topic.

16. ### PsychoticEpisodeIt is very dry in here todayValued Senior Member

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Its the crap no sane individual could ever digest so I wish you would quit throwing it at us down here at the bottom of the hill.

Still I like it each time God gets more mysterious. You seem to have a penchant for making sure that is the case. Cmon admit it, wouldnt you love for God to actually prove His existence to us? That I told you so moment that youre longing to experience just isn`t happening, is it? So close and yet getting so much farther away.

17. ### lightgiganticBannedBanned

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Its the same crap argument you have on offer.

Don't worry.
Ignorance is not a permanent quality of the soul.
You're a work in progress.

18. ### NeverflyBannedBanned

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As are you. Perhaps someday, you will move beyond the primitive need for fairy tales.

19. ### wynn˙Valued Senior Member

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Yes, and instead realize that this

is how things really are, right?

I mean really, this forum is filled with failed yogis!

20. ### iceauraValued Senior Member

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They're flat, fuzzy, and made of pixels?

21. ### lightgiganticBannedBanned

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Actually its the needs of an industrial society that are primitive ... and it becomes a fairytale when one believes it is sustainable ....

22. ### NeverflyBannedBanned

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This has some truth in it.

However, how does a blind belief in superstition outweigh faith in technology?
At least technology is falsifiable.

23. ### jesscBannedBanned

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To abide by the given feidistic / (theistic) position until the proven testomony of the new belief system is proven as confirmist to the religion in position which is taken as valid and completely cogent?