Republican leader Boehner unable to explain how tax cuts will be funded!

Discussion in 'Politics' started by joepistole, Aug 10, 2010.

  1. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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  3. John T. Galt marxism is legalized hatred!! Registered Senior Member

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  5. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    ?

    Additionally, you might want to correct the quotation marks in your previous post so that you post reads better.

    Oh I see, so Republicans despite denying it have a plan and they are intentionally keeping it secret. Do you have any proof of same? So you are saying Republicans are keeping their plan secret because if voters knew what they are planning, voters would not vote Republican?

    So you are admitting Republicans are intentionally deceiving the American people. Well good for you, at least you are being honest.

    Yes I wrote that.
    Well first you have to prove that this administration has exhibited a total lack of fiscal control...something you have not done. And frankly, this administration is demonstrating fiscal control. Just because you do not understand macroeconomics and finance does not mean that the White House is exhibiting fiscal malfeasance.

    You have been reminded many times of the need to keep people employed to keep federal and state revenue streams coming and federal and state expenses down. But all of that just flies in one ear and out the other.

    The below analysis is from Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget
    "2001 vs. 2012

    Causes for Changes in CBO Forecasts.The U.S. budget situation has deteriorated significantly since 2001, when the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) forecast average annual surpluses of approximately $850 billion from 2009-2012. The average deficit forecast in each of those years is now approximately $1,215 billion. The New York Times analyzed this roughly $2 trillion "swing," separating the causes into four major categories along with their share:

    Recessions or the business cycle (37%);
    Policies enacted by President Bush (33%);
    Policies enacted by President Bush and supported or extended by President Obama (20%); and
    New policies from President Obama (10%
    ).

    CBO data is based only on current law, so policy proposals that have yet to be made law are not included in their analysis. The article concluded that President Obama's decisions accounted for only a "sliver" of the deterioration, but that he "...does not have a realistic plan for reducing the deficit..."[54] Presidents have no Constitutional authority to levy taxes or spend money, as this responsibility resides with the Congress, although a President's priorities influence Congressional action.[55]

    OMB Director Peter Orszag stated in a November 2009 that of the $9 trillion in deficits forecast for the 2010-2019 period, $5 trillion are due to programs from the prior administration, including tax cuts from 2001 and 2003 and the unfunded Medicare Part D. Another $3.5 trillion are due to the financial crisis, including reductions in future tax revenues and additional spending for the social safety net such as unemployment benefits. The remainder are stimulus and bailout programs related to the crisis.[56]" -Wikipedia

    Notice almost all of Obama's deficit spending was spending committed by Republicans...not President Obama. A minor detail which I am sure will go the way of all previous fact that does not meet with your preconcieved notions.

    OK, here we go again with the fear words and the words Republicans/conservatives/et al like to use indescriminately and without regard to there traditional definitions. I guess you guys keep the definitions of these words in your secret lexicon.

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    Well you see, here is the deal. Republcians spent federal money to benefit the special interests lining their pockets. They did not have to spend the money.

    Democrats now are faced with an economy that was in ruin. To fix that economy requires the spending of money. If you have not noticed, every industrial nation in the world has been stimulating their economies to keep their economies going and their fiscal houses in order.

    This is something you obviously do not understand. It is macroeconomics. I suggest you start out by Googling the Savings Paradox. Because of the current economic problems, the adminstration is being forced to spend money to keep people employed until the economy recovers.

    Additionally Democrats have taken long term steps to strengthen the nations finances by passing a healthcare reform law which will ultimately reduce government spending over time. Now I know you are adverse to information that runs contrary to your preconceived notions. But Democrats have proof, they have evidence that their actions will on the longer term reduce spending.

    You and others like you on the other hand have NO PROOF to the contrary. All you have is big words like Socialist, Marxist, etc. whos meaning you constantly change to suit your needs.
    I am going to blame Republicans or Democrats for malfeasance. LOL, there is that fear word again. Unfortunately for you, those words don't work on me because I know their correct meaning...the one most people outside of right wing extremists circles use.
    Sounds pretty scary again, I don't suppose you have any evidence to support your scary claims?

    The fact is the American political system is Democrat and Republican. If you want to get anything done in this country, you have to go through one party or the other. So to pretend that they do not exist or do not matter is just plain silly. And it is funnier still, because you consistently support Republican, Tea Party, conservative positions all the time. And you use the same words Republicans use...and you use the same misinformation they use.

    Well you see again your supposition is wrong. There are trillions of dollars sitting in the banking system that is not moving as it normally does. And why is that, because people fear that someone (e.g. Tea Partiers) are going to come to power and do something stupid...like cut federal stimulus.
    YEP THAT WAS IN MY POST. Please read the Paradox of Thrift.
    Oh, well if history is on your side then you should be able to prove it.

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    So prove it.

    We all saw how well the george II tax cuts worked, didn't we?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2010
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  7. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Mod Note: Good discussion here- heated to a temperature well above lukewarm, yet civil. This little bowl of porridge is nearly just right.
     
  8. John T. Galt marxism is legalized hatred!! Registered Senior Member

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    I haven't forgotten, I will respond.
     
  9. John T. Galt marxism is legalized hatred!! Registered Senior Member

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    You know you can spin this however you want, you do that anyway. But the bottom line is that no matter what I say or anyone else for that matter, you will always turn back to a republican/democrat thing and both sides have ownership over the problem. Though I believe dems have a greater percentage of that ownership, it doesn't really matter to me.

    What does matter is that there is a huge problem and soon the tax cuts sunsetting and the bailouts (supported by both sides including Obama) are going to comtribute to huge tax hikes.

    I know that you will spin and say prove it. Well you prove it won't happen! Sooner or later we have to pay for all these free rides being offered by our current government, and it will increase dramatically over what has taken place in the past.

    The primary problem is that you have accepted all the social programs in place as a part of our fabric. I have not. You see the social programs as necessities that cannot be reduced or cut. I do, and so do most congressman/woman.

    Your blindness refuses to see that tax cuts work, that capitalism works. But neither work when government interferes.

    I read your links and read the subsequent rebuttals to them. I read your precious wiki article and noticed that you didn't. I know that because only a fool could read that and see it as some type of proof that republicans are at fault. I found the wiki article to be a very good source and balanced. Yet you somehow felt it proved your point about republicans.

    The article points out, as you highlighted, that the previous administration was partly to blame, but any administration has restraints or allowances based on the congress. In other words, administrations may take blame or credit but many times they are and can be defined by the direction of the congress that serves them.

    Spin all you want joe, but eventually we will have to pay for these bailouts, government takeovers (auto & health industry, & one more that escapes me). It's really much simpler than you like to fantasize.

    The funny thing about marxism is that its basic principles are very easily understood, but because they are so in tune with an older ideology. Marx had to develop this complex maze to make people believe that the principles are solid. They aren't they are tyrannical, and the masses are confused by the maze (including you).

    I have been studying this stuff for a long time, and its still befuddles me how "intelligent" people can't see it. But rest assured, blindness is one of its symptoms.
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well what else is there in our political system other than Democrat or Republican? Those are the two choices American voters have in our elections. And for you or others like you to deny the two party nature of our political system is just nonsense. Those two parties are not going away anytime soon.

    Now please explain, how Democrats have a bigger ownership of the fiscal problem. As has been pointed out to you and others on numerous occasions, it was the Republican adminstration who took the national debt from 5 trillion to 13 trillion dollars. It was the Republican congress and administration and congress who added 8 trillion to the national debt. It was the Republican congress who:

    - added two unfunded wars to the national credit card/and bungled 2 wars
    - responsible for the largest expansion of entitlements since Medicare which they added to the national credit card in order to benefit special interests in the healthcare insurance and big pharma industries complete with (non interference clauses)
    - gave huge tax cuts to the rich without proper funding

    The fiscal irresponsibility of the last Republican congress and president is just unprecedented in modern American history.

    Where is your proof supporting your position?

    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2602600&postcount=43
    What does matter is that there is a huge problem and soon the tax cuts sunsetting and the bailouts (supported by both sides including Obama) are going to comtribute to huge tax hikes. [/QUOTE]

    OH, American tax rates are the lowest they have been in more than a half century. And all that the Obama adminstration is advocating is to return to the tax structure in existence during the Clinton era for those earning more than 250k per year. So it is not a huge tax increase and it only affects 2 percent of the population.

    As for the TARP money, most of it has been paid back with interest. And the auto industry bailout is following suit. GM has repaid part of the money owed to it. And just filed a shelf registration to list its stock on the NYSE which will give the government the opportunity to sell its stock in GM at a proft...just like what it is currently doing with Citi Group stock. So you may pay higher taxes if you are in the top 2 percent of income earners in the US. But it will not be because of bailout money. It will because of fiscal mismanagement under the george II years.
    You are right I am asking for proof. Below is a link, scroll down a bit to a chart. The Chart shows the big TARP players and the status of repayment...the chart is a little dated. But you will note that almost all of the institutions receiving TARP have repaid the money loaned to them by the government.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program

    What a lot of people on the right ignore is that this money was LOANED to these institutions. It was not given to them. And the government charged interest and/or is getting an ownership stake in these businesses equlivent to the investment made in the busineses.

    Citi will be fully paid up at a profit to the government by the end of the year.

    I just think I proved your statement that taxes were going to be increased because of the bailouts.

    Yes I have accepted that there is a place for social programs in our society. Perhaps you would like to see our country reduced to a place like India where people are living in abject poverty...where little old people and children go begging in the streets.

    You are right, that is not the country I want to live in.

    Where have I ever said that capitalism does not work? I have never made such a claim, nor will I ever. I believe in capitalism. It is the best system for production and distribution of goods and services yet devised by man. You my dear mr. gault are sitting up another strawman.

    My challenge to you was to prove your claim that tax cuts work to stimulate the economy? And to date, you have not been able to prove your claim. Saying something over and over again is not proof, nor does it make it any more truthful.

    We all have seen how ineffective the george II tax cuts were.
    Well it was so nice of you to admit that the previous Republican president and Republican congress may have had something to do with the fiscal mess in Washington.

    But the unplesant fact for you is that the Republican president and Republican congress were fiscally irresponsible...pure and simple. Now you want to down play their mafleasance and not hold them accountable.
    Show me where I have spun anything. I have reported facts and used reason to support my position. You have done neither and you want to accuse me of spin?

    I find it interesting that whenever people like you get cornered and cannot support your claims, you accuse the other party of spin. I repeat my many challenges to you to support your claims with fact and reason.
    Ok, now we are back to the scary words again. Instead of using fact and reason to support a claim or position, you go back to using the fear words. How is marxism - especially if you have been studying this stuff for some time - relevant to this discusion?

    The fact is no one is talking about marxism but the extreme right wing. And they are using it to scare people into doing stupid things...things they would not normally do if they were not in a state of fear.

    My challenge to you, since you have been studying it, is to show how it is relevant to American economics and politics today.

    And I repeat the previous challenges I issued to you last week.

    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2602600&postcount=43
     
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I await your response.
     
  12. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, joe and how do the Democrats pay for their spending?

    Buy cutting a budget that don't even exist yet, and they will not even be in control of?

    Yes, joe how are the Democrats going to control spending?

    buy cutting fictional budgets​


    $26 billion dollars in 2014

    :roflmao::roflmao:​
     
  13. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    What the hell are you talking about? Where have you been mr. buffalo roam?

    Because if you had been paying attention you would not have to ask that question. Democrats are trying to spend money now (stimulus) to keep people employed thereby minimizing government expenses and keeping tax revenues flowing on the near term.

    On the long term, they are trying to cut the biggest expense items in the federal budget - heatlhcare and defense spending. It helps if you pay attention.

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    On Face the Nation today Senate Republican leader followed House Minority Leader Boehner is admitting that Republicans did not have a plan for controling spending. McConnell when forced into a corner was forced to point to President Obama's deficit reduction committee as the solution to the federal spending problem. Funny, because when Democrats tried to get the Deficit commission law passed in Congress it was McConnell and his merry band of Republicans to deep sixed it. As a result, President Obama issued an executive order creating the commision.

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