Report is in! "Industrial scale" killings by Assad's forces. So now what?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Bells, Jan 21, 2014.

  1. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    They could argue that it impinges their arms sales... but theoretically they could assist his removal if we screwed with their trading, sure. Wouldn't the next fascist screwhead to take over Syria buy their arms from the same place? As usual, it's interesting the world powers that won't help out with this: Russia, China, Saudi Arabia.
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  3. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

    But America supports dictators as well, look at Saudi Arabia for just one of many examples.
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  5. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    America and its allies should stop trading with Saudi Arabia as well, or there should at least be massive tariffs on goods imported from such countries. Stop picking on Canadian "dirty" oil, the Saudis won't even report accurate stats on how "clean" theirs is, and the profits from Canadian oil don't go into slaughtering infidels and herding women like cows. These kind of nuances and double standards in America's foreign policy shouldn't continue to be used as an excuse by dictatorships and chronic human rights abusers to expect access to western markets. What would Russia gain from watching the killing stop and another fascist ally crumble, if they know it'll only hurt their economic ties and prestige? As long as Putin wants Assad in power, that's where he will stay, even if he has to invite Russian "peacekeepers" in to personally bail him out.
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  7. Bells Staff Member

    James Zogby, President of the Arab American Institute wrote a brilliant piece on Syria. Well worth the read.
  8. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    And this is precisely why I've been saying for years that the world needs an economic realignment. Clearly, kind words and flowery praise have failed to get the job done. We've given the olympics to Hitler, Soviet Russia, fascist China, and now Putin, but has it ever been shown to improve their inclinations toward basic human rights rather than simply serve as lucrative propaganda for domestic consumption? Zogby is reluctantly concluding that a forceful intervention may be required, yet US and world public opinion still seem to run heavily against such action. So what else comes between unconditional praise and military intervention if not economic sanctions?

    Western Europe desperately needs to find another supplier for its oil and gas. They should start buying it from Canada instead of acting out on their jealousies by trying to shut it out as if Canadian oil was somehow dirtier than the oil produced by a third world country using rusty Soviet equipment. Once Russia loses its chokehold on the European energy market, then we need to move fast to cut them off from the rest of our economic ties, along with anyone who attempts to help them bypass sanctions, and force them to choose between supporting and arming Shia Islamist extremists at our peril, or cooperating with the West and giving up their absurd ambitions of becoming a major world power at everyone else's expense. Then we can do the same with the Saudis, Pakistanis and other Sunni extremists in turn, dry up the main sources of the Middle East's present conflicts.
  9. Bells Staff Member

    Suffer the little children..

    A UN report, detailing the treatment of children from March 2011 to November 2013, in the Syrian conflict has shown that there is wide spread abuse as a direct result of the Syrian conflict. Not just from the Assad Government troops, but also from the Rebel forces as well.

    To date, it is estimated that at least 10,000 children have been killed in the civil war in Syria. It does not end there. If that was not bad enough, the scale of the abuse faced by children is breathtakingly heartbreaking.

    In 2011 and 2012, the report said, children as young as 11 were held in government detention centers with adults and, according to witnesses, subjected to torture to coerce relatives to surrender or confess.

    “Ill treatment and acts tantamount to torture reportedly included beatings with metal cables, whips and wooden and metal batons; electric shocks, including to the genitals; the ripping out of fingernails and toenails; sexual violence, including rape or threats of rape; mock executions; cigarette burns; sleep deprivation; solitary confinement; and exposure to the torture of relatives,” the report stated. “Reports indicate that children were also suspended from walls or ceilings by their wrists or other limbs, were forced to put their head, neck and legs through a tire while being beaten, and were tied to a board and beaten.”

    The report said it had documented reports of sexual violence against children in government detention, “perpetrated mostly by members of the Syrian intelligence services and the Syrian Armed Forces” against those who were suspected of being affiliated with the opposition.

    The Rebel forces did not fare better in the report. With uncorroborated reports of rape of children (due to lack of access to some regions, the reports of rape allegedly committed by Opposition forces were unable to be verified) and the shooting of some teenage boys by the extremist factions of the Syrian Opposition forces, the report also details the recruitment of children into the war, from refugee camps in neighbouring countries, to fulfill military and support roles in the Opposition forces:

    The report also chronicled abuse by opposition forces, particularly as the war intensified starting in 2013, including summary executions of children. It received two reports from Hasakah Province, in northeast Syria: a 16-year-old boy shot to death in April 2013 by the Nusra Front, an extremist faction aligned with Al Qaeda, and a 14-year-old boy killed by members of a Kurdish group. The Syrian government told United Nations investigators that at least 130 children had been killed by opposition forces in different parts of the country.

    The report said the Free Syrian Army, the main opposition force, had recruited children in military and support roles. While there seemed to be no systematic policy of drawing children into combat, the report said, there were no age verification procedure. “Many boys stated that they felt it was their duty to join the opposition,” the report said, adding that at times children were drawn into fighting “by an elder male relative.”

    A spokesman for the rebels’ Supreme Military Council, who goes by the name Omar Abu Leila to protect his family, said that the Free Syrian Army only permits combatants who are at least 18, but that other rebel groups might deploy younger teenagers. “I don’t believe the report because the number of fighters in the Free Syrian Army is large, so there is no need to use children,” he said.

    There is no evidence that some of these children are being forced into combat by the Opposition forces and there is evidence to suggest many of these children are volunteering due to the circumstances of the war (death of family, family pressure to fight, sense of duty and most importantly, lack of education for these boys), the fact that they are being used at all or accepted into such roles is disturbing. In other words, the Opposition forces were not found to be going out of their way to grab or force children into these roles, but they weren't turning them away either.

    "The lack of education or job opportunities and peer pressure were identified as key factors leading to the recruitment of refugee children," Ban said in the report.

    Within Syria, Ban's report said the United Nations "received consistent reports of recruitment and use of children by FSA-affiliated groups" but that it was not conducted as a policy or systematically.

    "Interviews with children and their parents indicated that the loss of parents and relatives, political mobilization and peer pressure from families and communities, contributed to the involvement of children with FSA-affiliated groups," it said.

    "Many boys stated that they felt it was their duty to join the opposition," the report said.

    The United Nations did not receive reports of formal recruitment of children by government forces, but troops and pro-government militia reportedly intimidated and seized young males, some under 18, to join them at checkpoints and during raids in pro-government and contested areas.

    At least 10,000 dead children and counting. Systemic industrial scale murder.. Torture and rape of children...

    When will this clusterfuck of a war end? How has it been allowed to get to this point?
  10. p-brane Registered Senior Member

    Putin and Khamenei.
  11. roscoe Banned Banned

  12. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    Maybe we should have sent Mike Tyson in to go pull Assad's pants down on Syrian national TV, I'm sure that would have promoted far greater cooperation as opposed to handing out carrots.

    The conspiracy theories just keep getting more and more convoluted. If it wasn't for groups like Al Qaeda and like-minded extremists, the Islam-Zionism conflict as we know it today probably wouldn't even exist in the first place. Listening to the Iranian camp and their allies, apparently the Sunnis had this grand master plan all along, where they get thousands of their own people killed in wars with Israel and kill millions more with Israel used as a convenient excuse, only to then suddenly turn around and ally with the Jews to permanently enslave themselves while simultaneously wiping out the Shias in one stroke. How can you possibly believe in this crap?
  13. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    I used to think that the West - and the Communist East - had a moral obligation to involve itself everywhere. Actually, I still do. But unfortunately, it can't work. Other factions are aligned against the public good and always will be: Republican, Democrat, Saudi, neo-Marxist, reactionary, religious. For a modicum of effort, such factions can always effectively interfere with our moral and humanitarian objectives, and will do so for a plethora of reasons, including spite. So what is one to do?

    In this age, I'm not even sure that I should write a solution down on the inter-tubes: apparently different factions of the government are watching, and it's not for nothing that they're not trustworthy. Expediency, not justice, is the watchword of our society. Association counts, honour does not.

    Orwell warned us of this, did he not? And yet here we are. Who shall I blame? The uneducated classes? The fools? The partisans? The bilateralists? The intelligensia? The new republicanistas? (Are there any of them?) Anyway, I'm sure a public bonfire of the nouveaux Jacobines would enormously amuse the 1%ers.
  14. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    Who do we blame for the Syria mess and related issues? I think we should accept some blame for ourselves as a collective society, that we've prioritized cheap goods and materials over democratic institutions. Greed and expediency are what created this situation we face today, where sworn enemies of the West are permitted to work hand in hand with some of our own supposed "allies" and "partners", and we do little more than register diplomatic protests. I think if we were willing to accept higher commercial prices, restore some of our own domestic manufacturing capabilities and accept some economic shocks in the short term, we could affect a great deal of positive change throughout the developing world.

    Syria's rulers have an obvious taste for the high life. Russia serves as their enabler, and Russia's elites in turn depend on their ties with the West both for their lavish lifestyles and for generating enough economic activity at home to keep the discontented masses at bay. By cutting these ties at their source, the nexus between Europe and Russia, we can generate tremendous pressure on Russia's elites to modify their attitudes and behaviour, which in turn would force similar pressure on the Assad regime. We can likewise generate similar pressure on the Saudis, Qataris and all other wealthy, corrupt sponsors of Islamic extremists amongst the rebels, and indeed in a broader scope, I feel this is the only effective strategy that will push nations such as China towards moderation and liberalization. Seems to have worked wonders with the cocky ass regime in Iran so far, and we didn't need to fire a single shot at them.

    The matter of dealing with Sunni and Shia religious hardliners will follow our dealings with the wealthier elites. In my view, their greatest weakness is that their devoid worldly vision leaves them heavily dependent on secular elites for anything that doesn't involve killing someone; they themselves offer no incentives for the enterprise and innovation which drive progress around the globe. Hezbollah doesn't make its own weapons (not the ones worth worrying about, at any rate)- they get shipped in from Iran and Syria, who in turn mostly acquire them from Russia and China. Extremists groups such as Hezbollah can't even afford to provide sufficient food for their own people without foreign assistance, so let's start addressing our issues at the sources and making some short-term sacrifices for the greater good, instead of tiptoeing around these issues and hoping they'll simply resolve themselves.

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