Religion vs. Thought

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Bambi, Sep 29, 2001.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    You almost made sense, but then again you didn't

    You'll have to establish that, Tony1, since the criteria you're judging by are your own criteria, and would otherwise be based on the arrogant assumption of being definitively correct in your perception. While you treat your fellow posters as if this is true, you never come right out and say it. How are you judging by my superstitions? The demons you see which compel you to forfeit your understanding of what people tell you are demons you choose to see for whatever reasons. They're yours, not ours.

    --Tiassa

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  3. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

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    You are easily the most superstitious person I have come across.
    Thus, the distinction between thought and intelligence you so clearly portray.
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    I see: it's true Because Tony1 Says So

    And how is it established that I am superstitious? Because You Say So, Tony1? You must establish that this is true, but your failure to do so indicates that this measure of a person, like your assessment of people's religions, is entirely dependent on your superstitions. The problem seems to be that you do not understand those things you accuse people of. For instance, I would have thought by now that you were capable of figuring out that the criteria by which you judge superstition is subjective not only insofar as anyone's criteria are, but that they are based upon superstition itself. In other words, Tony1, when you say that a person is superstitious, this is accepted as true in the same sense as your generalized assertions regarding the character of atheists, witches, and others: in other words, Tony1, when you say that someone is superstitious, we all kind of chuckle at your hypocrisy.

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    Tiassa

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    PS--I noticed that frenzy of trolling and typing on Saturday. Really, Tony1, if you take a little more time between your posts, you might actually make a little more sense. As it is, you demonstrated that you aren't actually reading what you're responding to, but seeking keywords by which you can build what you consider an insult or cast aspersions on the character of others. Settle down, man. Have some integrity in your posts.
     
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  7. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

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    Re: I see: it's true Because Tony1 Says So

    *Originally posted by iassa
    And how is it established that I am superstitious?
    *

    ---superstitious adj :
    showing ignorance of the laws of nature and faith in magic or chance---

    That's you.

    *PS--I noticed that frenzy of trolling and typing on Saturday....Have some integrity in your posts. *

    Since you were patting yourself on the back for keeping up, I can only conclude that "frenzy of trolling and typing" is a good thing where you are concerned.

    Try to maintain some integrity.
    What am I saying?
    What does integrity mean to a pagan?
     
  8. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    4,197
    Actually Tony1...

    Hmmmm, lets see, Tony1 omnisicient, believes in demons beigns of which you claim we are channeling, a supreme being wich channels throug you, and you are calling Tiassa a superstition person?. LOL. & I quote Tony1; ---superstitious adj :
    showing ignorance of the laws of nature and faith in magic or chance---
    This sounds more like YOU Tony1!.
     
  9. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

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    2,279
    Re: Actually Tony1...

    *Originally posted by Godless
    Hmmmm, lets see, Tony1 omnisicient, believes in demons beigns of which you claim we are channeling, a supreme being wich channels throug you, and you are calling Tiassa a superstition person?. LOL. & I quote Tony1; ---superstitious adj :
    showing ignorance of the laws of nature and faith in magic or chance---
    This sounds more like YOU Tony1!.
    *

    Muy divertido!

    I know the laws of nature, you and tiassa don't.
    I have no faith in magic or chance, you and tiassa do.

    Sounds like you're the superstitious ones.
     
  10. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    4,197
    O! que vien!!.

    You claim you know the laws of nature, so you say, then you should know, that there's nothing that could be above nature i.e. supernatural, and to believe in such a thing would have to be on "faith" this is why YOU are superstitious!.
     
  11. KalvinB Publicity Whore Registered Senior Member

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    1,063
    Using your "logic and reason" you claim to have developed explain to me why knowing the laws of nature out rules the possiblity of knowing the rules of the supernatural?

    And why does the existance of nature outrule the existance of the supernatural?

    Seeing as Tony1 has exorcised demons I think he would know that the supernatural exists.

    Who are you to question what Tony knows he done?

    Maybe you should work on proving what Tony yanked out of someone wasn't actually a demon. Mindless accusations aren't getting you anywhere.

    Ben
     
  12. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    4,197
    Well first of all explain "supernatural"

    Second, just cause Tony1 claims he has cast out demons, which sounds like a load of crap!! btw. does not prove the existence of "supernatural" whatever he might of thought he was doing, was probably dealing with some one crazier than he!!.`
     
  13. KalvinB Publicity Whore Registered Senior Member

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    1,063
    Well gee, with evidence like that you must be right. Let's see...

    You don't who Tony cast a demon out of
    You don't know the circumstances leading up to it
    You don't know what he did to cast it out
    You don't know why he believed the person had a demon to begin with
    You don't how the person was changed afterwards

    so what exactly do you base your conclusion on?

    Like I said "mindless accusations aren't getting you anywhere." It's interesting to see the modern buzzword "free thinker" being tossed around much like "true believer" but you can't fathom that maybe there are some things out there you can't explain. How is it "free thought" to casually dismiss everything you can't explain?

    What is supernatural?

    Anything that happens outside of what we think are the rules of nature.

    Maybe demons are perfectly natural. Some of us just havn't figured out the natural laws that govern them.

    Ben
     
  14. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    4,197
    Bla!Bla!Bla!

    Let's see, casting out demons is a Catholic practice, Tony1 claims to be a true Christian, if this is so, it's perhaps a sin for him to cast out demons, lol.

    this is ludicrious, I can claim I saw elves.

    You don't know who I am.
    You don't know what I saw.
    You can't say elves don't exist.
    they are part of the "supernatural"
    And you claim that the supernatural exist. Which is not within the laws of physics.
     
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,124
    Interesting, indeed

    What I find most interesting is that Tony1 has never felt it important enough to offer even the barest minimum of those details. He likes to say he knows things, but he doesn't show them. It's like his assertions about people who think differently than he: when asked where he gets his information, he's not forthcoming.

    I find it interesting that, given his biblical mandate for distrust, we're supposed to simply trust that his assertions are true.

    Why do you advocate hypocrisy and sin, KalvinB? Why should we violate the Bible solely for the effect of reinforcing Tony1?

    --Tiassa

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  16. KalvinB Publicity Whore Registered Senior Member

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    "Let's see, casting out demons is a Catholic practice"

    This is why one generally does research before talking. Casting out demons is a Biblical concept.

    "this is ludicrious, I can claim I saw elves."

    Yes you can and until you offer proof (as you demand from Tony) I have no reason to believe you. But I can't tell you that you didn't see them. Which was the point.

    "we're supposed to simply trust that his assertions are true."

    You can't assume anything. That's the problem. You're like an iron ball hanging on a string between two magnets that can never find the middle ground. You can't assume he's lying but you can't assume he telling the truth either. From a Biblical perspective it's entirely possible that he is telling the truth.

    "Why do you advocate hypocrisy and sin, KalvinB? Why should we violate the Bible solely for the effect of reinforcing Tony1?"

    How did you arrive at those loaded questions?

    Ben
     
  17. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,279
    Re: O! que vien!!.

    *Originally posted by Godless
    to believe in such a thing would have to be on "faith" this is why YOU are superstitious!.
    *

    Of course, faith is neither magic nor chance.
    However, since you don't know that there IS something supernatural, that would make you superstitious.

    You believe in a fictional, nonexistent supernatural.
    If that isn't superstititous, nothing is.

    *Originally posted by KalvinB
    so what exactly do you base your conclusion on? *


    I'm guessing superstition.

    *Maybe demons are perfectly natural.*

    They are spirits, so that means that it might be perfectly natural for them to be supernatural.

    *Originally posted by Godless
    casting out demons is a Catholic practice
    *

    When's the last time you saw a Catholic doing it?

    *this is ludicrious, I can claim I saw elves.

    You don't know who I am.
    You don't know what I saw.
    You can't say elves don't exist.
    they are part of the "supernatural"
    And you claim that the supernatural exist. Which is not within the laws of physics.
    *

    Elf is just another name for demon.
    So, you can actually see demons?

    Hmm.
    Earlier you were saying demons don't exist, now you're saying you can see them.

    *Originally posted by tiassa
    What I find most interesting is that Tony1 has never felt it important enough to offer even the barest minimum of those details.
    *

    I wrote them down.
    It was probably just the pot smoke that prevented you from seeing them.
     
  18. Taken Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    599
    Bambi, I find that science doesn't really disprove God, but rather proves how wonderouse His creation is and that nothing so complex and amazingly acurate could possibly have just "appeared" but must have been the handiwork of something far greater and more powerfull than I can understand. I guess it is all in how you look at it. The question is, are you satisfied with any of those explanations you gave? Do they answer all your questions? Or do you find them lacking but chose to be an athiest because religion left you feling the same way?
     
  19. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

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    2,279
    *Originally posted by Taken
    Bambi,...
    *

    hasn't been checking up for a while.
     
  20. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

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    4,197
    Gooooood morning Tony0

    Quote Tony0; "Of course, faith is neither magic nor chance.
    However, since you don't know that there IS something supernatural, that would make you superstitious."

    Your misconception of reality cracks me up, LOL, LMAO, ROFL. LOL, thanks for the early morning crack up joke!!. LOL, good one.
     
  21. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

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    2,279
    *Originally posted by Brainless
    Your misconception of reality cracks me up, LOL, LMAO, ROFL. LOL, thanks for the early morning crack up joke!!. LOL, good one.
    *

    No prob.
    Be careful you don't pop a blood vessel in your brain, or lack thereof, when you're laughing so hard.

    You believe in magic and chance since you have no god, other than magic or chance.
    You've stated that you trust your own reason and logic, but if that isn't gambling on a long shot, I don't know what is.
     
  22. Bambi itinerant smartass Registered Senior Member

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    309
    Taken,

    I find that religion doesn't really promote God, but rather demonstrates "how wonderouse" he is and that "nothing so complex and amazingly" powerful (not to mention intelligent) could possibly have "just 'appeared'".

    I find the idea that the universe just is rather more palatable than the idea that a mythological "god" just is and the universe is the consequence. At least the former idea doesn't involve any imaginary entities (not to mention that the latter idea merely complicates the issues without explaining anything.)

    Note that in order for something to exist it doesn't have to be manufactured by an intelligence. While most human artifacts would not exist if it weren't for intelligent creators, the same cannot be said of all other entities including life on Earth. If you want to claim that life (or the universe, or everything) was designed and/or created by an intelligence, then your only way of supporting such a claim is to demonstrate why life (the universe, or everything) could not exist without having been designed and/or created.

    Tony,

    You know why? After I've spent an entire evening making a total ass of myself by reciprocating your behavior, I finally realized something. My life is too short to spend any more of it bickering with you. I'd rather spend my time on something a little more productive. (you'll be amused to learn that I'm now spending my extra time working through an engineering textbook on signal analysis.)

    But you're obviously not interested in a real discussion. You have actually made some astonishing claims that indicate to me you are a lost cause as far as discussion can go. For example, you've claimed that striving for the betterment of mankind is stupid (the justification: because it is not true Christianity.) And then you go and assault atheism on moral grounds... But in your last post of this specific discussion, you've actually managed to state that:

    1) If life evolved, than there is no such thing as intelligent life.
    2) Given that evolution is nothing, the context is, therefore, nothing.
    3) me: *Just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean it's automatically a religious thing.*
    you: Aaah, so it isn't "truly" in the Bible?
    4) but you don't actually have any answers. You have a lot of questions for which you receive something which engenders more questions, ad infinitum. [the "something", it is to be concluded, is not answers]
    5) For the sake of argument, simply assume that the theory of evolution is completely proven in principle. ... What is the benefit to mankind, or more specifically, you? [pursuit of truth, apparently, is irrelevant, as is truth itself.]
    6) Not one atheist I have met has ever questioned their own most cherished beliefs. [I'm hurt.]
    7) Since you reject a claim which stipulates its own proof, you also reject the proof, hence, you are deluded. [my personal favorite; anyone who rejects circular reasoning is deluded]

    I think you've completely destroyed whatever was left of your point, and I'll leave it at that.

    To conclude, the only one who can change a mind like yours is you. Until you start thinking, there's nothing more I've got to tell you.

    Meanwhile, the sordid irony of the religion-toting USA fighting against religious extremism and pushing totalitarian policies in spite of its past decrial of totalitarianism -- it's entirely too much. I just hope you don't end up in arguments such as this with any fundamentalist Muslim; unlike with atheists, you won't survive to reply.
     
  23. tony1 Jesus is Lord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,279
    *Originally posted by Bambi
    Note that in order for something to exist it doesn't have to be manufactured by an intelligence. While most human artifacts would not exist if it weren't for intelligent creators, the same cannot be said of all other entities including life on Earth.
    *

    Sure, it can be said, and we're saying it.

    *If you want to claim that life (or the universe, or everything) was designed and/or created by an intelligence, then your only way of supporting such a claim is to demonstrate why life (the universe, or everything) could not exist without having been designed and/or created.*

    Only if you can explain why the chair you're sitting in could exist without having been designed and/or created.

    *My life is too short to spend any more of it bickering with you. I'd rather spend my time on something a little more productive.*

    Bummer.
    You were actually coming up with some fairly "good" stuff there.
    I figured that if you weren't going to change your mind, we could sharpen our arguments against each other.

    *(you'll be amused to learn that I'm now spending my extra time working through an engineering textbook on signal analysis.)*

    You're right, I'm amused.
    Life is too short to discuss how to lengthen it, but it's long enough to analyze signals.
    Mind you, I guess I'm not one to talk since I analyze plenty of them myself.

    *For example, you've claimed that striving for the betterment of mankind is stupid (the justification: because it is not true Christianity.) And then you go and assault atheism on moral grounds...*

    God forbid.

    *1) If life evolved, than there is no such thing as intelligent life.*

    I thought that was your point.
    Since design comes from intelligence, then randomness comes from absence of intelligence.
    If evolution is random, then there is no intelligence invloved.
    No intelligence prima facie means no intelligence.

    *2) Given that evolution is nothing, the context is, therefore, nothing. *

    What is the context of a fairy tale?

    *3) me: *Just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean it's automatically a religious thing.*
    you: Aaah, so it isn't "truly" in the Bible?
    *

    That was a reference to a habit you got into in a series of posts of using the "true Scotsman" argument.

    *4) but you don't actually have any answers. You have a lot of questions for which you receive something which engenders more questions, ad infinitum. [the "something", it is to be concluded, is not answers]*

    I have the answer.
    You're the one with the questions.

    *5) For the sake of argument, simply assume that the theory of evolution is completely proven in principle. ... What is the benefit to mankind, or more specifically, you? [pursuit of truth, apparently, is irrelevant, as is truth itself.]*

    Why would a person "pursue" truth when he has it?
    Pursuing truth is prima facie evidence of not having it.

    *6) Not one atheist I have met has ever questioned their own most cherished beliefs. [I'm hurt.]*

    Well, I am sorry.
    Hurt wasn't the intent.
    The intent was not to suggest that you have never questioned your beliefs at all, merely to point out that you don't question the nature of your questions.

    *7) Since you reject a claim which stipulates its own proof, you also reject the proof, hence, you are deluded. [my personal favorite; anyone who rejects circular reasoning is deluded]*

    You didn't understand the statement.
    I didn't say anything about claims which assume their own proof.

    What I was referring to is something like the following example...
    Example statement: If you look outside and up then you will see the sky.
    Example response: I looked inside and down and I didn't see any sky, therefore the sky doesn't exist.

    The stipulated proof is "looking outside and up."
    If you insist that you should be able to look inside and down to see the sky, you will simply be in error, i.e. deluded.

    Nothing personal, by the way.

    *I just hope you don't end up in arguments such as this with any fundamentalist Muslim; unlike with atheists, you won't survive to reply. *

    The 20 million Russians who were killed by atheist Stalin will be glad to know that they are mistaken and are actually alive.

    Still glad you're back.
     

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