(Religion=Delusion) = Delusion

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by lightgigantic, Jul 20, 2008.

  1. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    I think there is something extremely facetious about saying the best possible explanation for the constant testimony of most people that ever lived on the face of the planet throughout history that there is some sort of divine being, is that most people are insane --- it seems like these persons are trying very hard to avoid the subject of god. Especially when you consider that the world’s best moral systems (if not all of the moral systems – one’s that actually stay in civilizations) come from religion. The same with best architecture, best sculpture, best literature – all were inspired by metaphysical ideas like this .. so to say that the most plausible explanation is that these people were insane – when it has been the most culturally productive phenomena in the history of humanity – I mean ... seriously

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    one simple example

    For many centuries – since the renaissance until recently - the pillar of education was classical civilization (Greek and roman) philosophy, art etc (until the technological/industrial revolution , which convinced people that more important than art, philosophy and morality is high tech consumer products) – but for many centuries it was the basis of western education ....
    However, for all their advances in art and culture, the Greeks and Romans could never imagine that there could be anything as absurd as equality; that a rich person and a poor person are equal, or a free person and a slave. It’s ironic how Athenian society it is held up as the quintessential example of real democracy with all the Athenians actually going up on the hill to the acropolis and intensely debating issues .... of course the reason that they could afford to spend their time like this is because they had so many slaves at home ( someone to plant the crops, someone to harvest them, someone to do the pots ). Most people in Athens were actually slaves. So for all their hyper impressive architecture etc the notion of ultimate equality was completely alien (And what to speak of the Romans, who were more than happy to enslave large numbers of people). So interestingly enough, the notion of no matter how much money, power etc you are all equal, that actually came from religion (Jesus in the west).

    So historically the highest moral substance has always come from religion. To write all that off as a massive delusion comes across as trying really hard to ignore a jumbo jet that has crashed into one’s dining room
     
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  3. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    LG, I think you'll find most people who say what you claim they do will not deny doing so facetiously.

    Unfortunately, none of what you go on to say provides one iota of support for the truth of the tennets of religious faith.

    That the majority of the world are religious? Irrelevant.
    That it has inspired people? Irrelevant.
     
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  5. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    im sorry but your wrong, not all moral codes come from religion. MOST come from Philosophy actually.

    thats where ulitiariansium, principle based ethics and virtua ethics all come from

    exestenualisium specifically denies that ethics comes from god\gods
     
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  7. Roman Banned Banned

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    I love your religious morals:

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    This slut is so totally going to get it:

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    God told me.
     
  8. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Your problem here is that when you look at the specifics of the claims of all these people throughout history, then end up being mutually-contradictory. If there really was a divine being that was inspiring people to believe that he/she/it exists, I wouldn't expect such a diverse, contradictory set of beliefs. It seems unlikely to me that the Norse religion, Hinduism, Christianity, and the various native American religions were all inspired by the same truth.

    Also, your attempts to claim that most societal morals come from religion is simply ignorant. MANY cultures throughout history separated their morals from their religion. The ancient Greeks and Romans, the Norse, and many other cultures justified their morals with philosophy, not religion. If you take a look at the religion of any of those cultures, you'll see that they believed in gods that often behaved very badly and were NOT thought of as beacons of moral virtue that were to be emulated.

    And by the way, exactly which set of religious-inspired morals were you talking about? Because again, if there really were some universal deity that was inspiring morality, I wouldn't expect different cultures to all use religion to justify such a diverse range of moral philosophies. Even just looking at Christianity, a single religion, you have inspired moral beliefs that have ranged from the crusades and witch burning to total "turn the other cheek" pacifism. So again, looking at the morals that have been inspired by religion throughout history - even just looking at the morals that have been inspired by a single religion - I don't see any signs that there was some universal truth that was guiding them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2008
  9. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    I think that qualifiers like "delusional", "insane", "idiotic" are mostly nothing but convenient at least partly socially acceptable expressions of anger and hatred. If there actually would be some rational basis for using those qualifiers, then the people who use them could justify them in each instance of use and could define "insane" as opposed to "sane", "knowing the truth about reality" as opposed to "delusional" and so on. But they cannot; they resent such a challenge; all they do is revert to "it is obvious, self-evident what the truth is" and "it is so because I said so" in various versions.

    In the Buddhist tradition, there is the guideline that the Dharma should never be taught to someone who has not meditated yet. Before a talk, some Buddhist teachers go through a session of guided meditation with the audience first. In other traditions, the first activity at a religious meeting is the singing of songs or praying, and only then do they move to the philosophical part and discussion.
    There is a good reason for this: they recognize the importance of stilling the mind, and that a mind in the grip of anger, hatred, jealousy, greed ... cannot think straight and isn't useful. And only someone who has experienced at least some true stillness of mind will be able to appreciate its importance and recognize how anger and hatred tend to go hand in hand with irrationality and low standards of cognition.
     
  10. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    Where did philosophy come from?
     
  11. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    Why do you think it is irrelevant that the majority of the world are religious?
     
  12. fahrenheit 451 fiction Registered Senior Member

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    He doesn't, but it isn't relevant to the OP.
    There's no need to read anymore in to it.
     
  13. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    No one says they are all insane. It's mostly ignorance, superstition and wishful thinking.

    But the Greeks were very religious, and the bible talked about how one should treat their slaves.
     
  14. fahrenheit 451 fiction Registered Senior Member

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    Two points firstly which god are you referring too. And secondly people have had constant testimony on all sorts of strange creatures since the beginning of time would you say absolutely none of them were delusional. And one other point, deluding oneself just means your mistaken, not necessarily crazy.
    Yes lol, the exact same way they would be avoiding the subject of Fairies, orks, unicorns, satars, etc...
    Morals do not come from religion, we are social animals, the golden rule applies, most ancient books contain some form of morality, such as "Aesops fables" "A Thousand and One Nights(Arabian nights)" etc...
    Yes the imagination of people has constructed some of the most beautiful and pleasant things, such as the books and fables above.
    Genius has always had it's links with madness, so to has the imagination, there is nothing wrong with being just a little mad, if we weren't there would be no Art, no Music, etc.. The imagination can Inspire anybody, just watch a child play.
    everything inspire us, and I mean everything. Religion is just one small aspect in the vastness that is the Imagination.
     
  15. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    Atheism has killed more innocent people than all other religions combined.
     
  16. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    The greeks are probably one of the best examples (that I know of, anyway) of a society that accomplished a great deal but DIDN'T get their morals from their religion. Their gods were constantly killing their own family members, punishing unfortunate mortals for no reason other than petty spite, backstabbing each other, and doing all sorts of other things that the greeks didn't consider to be moral. They believed that gods existed, but they didn't see them as the ultimate source of morality or moral authority. But it's very telling that lightgigantic just assumed that cultures everywhere throughout history got their morals from their religion...as if it doesn't even occur to him that morality doesn't have to come from religion.
     
  17. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Are you assuming that any time an atheist kills someone it is because of they are an atheist?
     
  18. snake river rufus Registered Senior Member

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    Would you care to cite a source? Atheists make up a very small percentage of the worlds people historicly and yet this 5 or 6 percent is way outclassing the theist in the killing dept? Sure.
     
  19. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Usually when people say idiotic things like that they try to back it by assuming that anyone who ever died under a communist regime was "killed by atheism." Which makes about as much sense as saying that all the people in the U.S./Iraq war were "killed by religion," since the leaders of both countries are/were religious.

    Did you have mass starvation after you tried to collectivize agriculture under your new communist government? Oh, those people were clearly killed by atheism. Rather than, uh...bad farming decisions. Were you a communist dictator who killed a bunch of political opponents? Well, those people were clearly killed by atheism too...never mind the fact that you were killing them because they didn't want to recognize your right to rule them, rather than any religious reason. In other news, since the U.S. is a mostly christian nation, every person who has ever died there was killed by theism.

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    Last edited: Jul 20, 2008
  20. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    Atheism isn't a religion. So your statement makes no sense.
     
  21. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    It's not insanity, it's good old fashioned natural anthropomorphism and it's part of a survival mechanism. It biologically doesn't matter if our thought process leads to truth or falsity... it only matters if it improves our chances of survival and persistence.

    Morals come from how we judge other people. There is one primary question and one secondary question that humans use to judge other humans:

    1) Are you mean?
    2) Are you valuable?

    That's the basis for all human morality.


    Western (US specific) moraility was driven negatively by religion. The founders of the US judged their native country as being mean to them by hindering their religious freedom. They found the idea of equal religious freedom as far more valuable and formed America.

    My observation is that the healtheir a society is and longer it lasts, the more it will align towards individual equality simply due to how we judge each other.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2008
  22. snake river rufus Registered Senior Member

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    I know, I'm just tired of hearing the same balderdash repeated as fact. Every so often I feel the urge to step out among them, perhaps one here or there may awaken from their slumber.

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  23. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    Perhaps there is something to all that religious BS after all.
    Because it's riddled with superstitious beliefs, animism and "the spirit", does that mean "the whole thing is a crock"?

    I don't personally believe that is the case. There are plenty of common philosophical and moral threads in many "different" religions - how come? Are religious morals "useless" because we now "know" that animism is an incorrect or actually unenlightened perspective?

    Why are so many of us still superstitious and essentially animist then?
     

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