Recent Religions: Hallucination or Lies

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Dinosaur, Aug 26, 2015.

  1. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    So far, no Poster has answered the basic question I asked in Post #1
    The examples I gave were Joseph Smith (Mormon) & Emanuel Swedenborg.

    Smith claimed to have discovered golden tablets & magic spectacles which allowed him to
    read them. The language was not some human language & I think (not sure) Smith was
    illiterate. He read the tablets to an associate who wrote the Book of the Mormon faith. It was
    claimed that the tablets & spectacles disappeared (reclaimed by god, perhaps).

    Swedenborg claimed to have had revelations from god. Among other information, he claimed that god told him about inhabitants on Mars & other planets with cultures similar to those on Earth.

    While hallucinations are a reasonable explanation, I suspect deliberate lies. I have no opinion relating to motivation for the lies, although a shrink, a psychologist, or a sociologist might have worthwhile opinions on this issue.
     
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  3. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    BTW: I deliberately Posted in a non-religious Thread, because I thought the issue was more psychological or sociological than religious.

    A moderator moved the Thread.

    I was interested in opinions from Posters not likely to pay attention to the Religion forum.


    I probably should have mentioned my motivation for not Posting in the Religion forum.
     
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  5. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    Walking in water : Mathew was a contemporary, why don't you believe
    A wheel is a mechanical device the Egyptian were earlier the Ezekiel they must have had call it primitive mechanical devised to move large stones in the building the pyramids
    Friend you make your own choice to believe or not . O make my choice not to believe that before BB there was nothing and it is a lie
     
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  7. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think they are either hallucinations or lies. They're just subjective experiences. The same root of ancient shamanism and later oral mythic traditions. It's just that these ones are so new and recent that they lack the perception of validity by the general public. They've come into being "after" the closing of the age of myth, and fall within the age of literature and investigation. So they are degraded or ignored.
    I don't necessarily agree with or believe them. But I am open to their experiences being true for them.
     
  8. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    From TimOjin Post # 23
    Is English your second language? The second sentence above is a bit strange.

    I do not think that Matthew was a contemporary of Jesus. Mark was & I wonder why his gospel was second in the New Testament since it probably was written prior to Matthew’s.

    I do not believe that Jesus walked on water: Apparently you do believe.

    I question the Ezekiel account because it refers to a wheel overhead, not one rolling on the ground.
     
  9. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    From Hapsburg Post # 24
    Unless you believe that Smith found golden tablets & that Swedenborg actually had revelations from god, the experiences were either hallucinations or lies.

    BTW: Swedonberg claimed that god told him about Martian civilizations similar to those on Earth. It seems strange that god would tell lies about the existence of Martian civilizations.

    Being an atheist, I am not accusing god of lying, I am merely being a bit sarcastic.​
     
  10. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    There world isn't that black and white.
     
  11. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Hapsburg: From your Post # 27
    The above was a reply to my Post #26
    Is there some gray MindScape which allows for another alternative?
     
  12. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. Perception and experience are subjective. Where there is subjectivity, you have a gray area. I don't have an absolutist mindset about "truth".
    All we have to go on, to construct a model for reality, is our own experience and perceptions, and experimental science and measurement. And since the perception of having visions cannot be measured, it falls into the other category of subjective experience. To say that they're hallucinations assumes that it's not possible for it to be true; but accepting that it's true for another person doesn't necessarily mean that it's true for me or you. And saying that they're lies assumes that the people who made the claims are being disingenuous, which isn't necessarily true. They're just experiencing something that you or I didn't.
     
  13. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    Very beautiful point of view.
     
  14. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    From Hapsburg Post #29
    This Thread relates to two claims
    Do you consider either of the above to be possibly true?
     
  15. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Are you asking if we think carefully about the claims of these people?
    My answer is no.

    jan.
     
  16. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Matthew the disciple was not the author of the Book of Matthew in the Bible.
     
  17. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Since their claims are beyond the scope of scientific investigation and evidence, and are based on subjective experiences, it is possible. They can't exactly be put to the test and demonstrated one way or the other in an objective way.
    But, in the end, my beliefs and experiences align elsewhere from either of those claims. I'm a polytheist, and a practitioner of a reconstruction of Roman syncretic religion. So what Swedenborg claimed or the Mormons claimed doesn't really matter to me.
     
  18. Grantywanty Registered Senior Member

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    I don't know any working scientists who use this heuristic. Extraordinary is not a quantifiable term and open to all sorts of subjective, read non-measurement based, subjective interpretation. It certainly plays out in the way scientists (and others) react to research conclusions, models, assertions, etc. that do not fit whatever the current consensus, models or beliefs are in the scientific community, but it is decidely not a cornerstone. It is utterly unnecessary to think of it when planning and carrying out experimentation. It works as a kind of sociological observation of what happens when new information, models, conclusions that challenge consensus assumption come out. Further....
    • This is Carl Sagan, not Laplace. If you think this is a useful shorthand for Laplace's Rule of Succession, it isn't.
     
  19. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    From Hapsburg Post #34
    The above indicates that you believe that the following claims could be true.
    Do you really believe that either of the above claims could be true?

    BTW: Most theists would be very upset by the claim that god stated that cultures similar to those on Earth existed on Mars & other planets. It is not often that I (an atheist) find theists agreeing with me on a theological issue.
     
  20. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    I don't know why you keep asking the literal same question over and over again.

    Most theists you meet are probably monotheists who think that Earth and humanity is ultra-special.
     

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