Reasons for Republican Party Disarray

Discussion in 'Politics' started by joepistole, Jul 9, 2017.

  1. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    As evidenced by Trump, and the inability of the Republican Party to pass any of the legislation they have promised now for 7 plus years, the Republican Party is in a state of disarray. That begs the question; why? Why is the Republican Party in such a state of disarray. How did they come to a Trump at the top of their ticket and winning the presidency? This is an important question. Republicans should be asking themselves why. How did they get here? What do they need to change?

    The excuse: they didn't expect to win.

    "Sen. Patrick J. Toomey offered a simple, remarkable explanation this week for why Republicans have struggled so mightily to find a way to repeal the Affordable Care Act.


    “Look, I didn’t expect Donald Trump to win, I think most of my colleagues didn’t, so we didn’t expect to be in this situation,” the Pennsylvania Republican said Wednesday night during a meeting with voters hosted by four ABC affiliates across his state."

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...op-disarray-nobody-expected-trump-to-win.html
     
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    The democrats after 8 years of little improvement for the middle class were not in a good place, worse we choose the most establishment, middle of the road, war hawk, corporatists candidate possible, we fucked our selves

    The republicans after 8 years of being primaried out in several cycles of ever increasing radicalism had a huckster ram rod his way through their presidential primary circus, silver lining was watching Trump fuck jeb bush and ted cruz live on the stage, not with his micropenis, no with his fists, both arms simultaneously, elbow deep, then he yells at the top of his pig lungs "The Aristocrats!!!" and the republican crowed cheer and whooped and horked.

    Turns out what remains of the republican party is a confederation of highly non-like minded people spanning from mccain to ryan, from trump to cruz, hence why they can't get anything done, some of them want to gut everything and implement a randian utopia and others are like "wait a minute... that is crazy!"

    The same thing is now happening amongst the democrats with the rise of the bernicrats in that democrats are now radicalizing as well, but are a decade or two behind the republicans in which the crazies now run the party and the moderates are hanging on for dear life. It is likely by 2020 we might have so many far left democrats that they won't be able to compromise even within the party and even if we take back the whole goverment we would be deadlocked by our own incompetence.
     
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    There isn't a single crazy or radical lefty in the Democratic Congress. There are none in Democratic Party leadership. And there never have been, in your lifetime.
    The radical and crazy in the "rightwing authoritarian corporate military oriented with a base in religious mythology " faction (not allowed to use the standard term, it's not PC) took over the Republican Party, starting in 1968 and essentially finishing by 1994. It took them 25 years to fully consolidate their grip (marked by a firm enough hold to "primary" holdouts).

    And they did - there are now essentially no moderates in the Republican Congress.
    So when the Dems get rid of the Clinton crowd, you advocate moving even farther to the right than the Clintons. To become competent, apparently.
     
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  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Blah blah conspiracy theory blah blah elders of zion blah blah Illuminati.

    McCain?

    How is taxing the fuck out of the rich to pay for socialize medicine, infrastructure building, free education for all and even one day a basic income: "farther to the right"?
     
  8. Kittamaru Suppose it makes sense. Wearing a bit thin. Valued Senior Member

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    Just curious... do you have any actual rebuttal to what iceaura said, or do you just plug your fingers in your ears and hum really loudly?
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    It isn't. It's the agenda of that radical element coming in, dividing the Party and making "us" incompetent - you said.
    Pushed for privatizing Social Security and Medicare. Favors further deregulation of Wall Street and even further, deeper tax cuts for rich people. Nominated Sarah Palin for the VP. Makes nice with the fundies on abortion etc.

    Take a look at his stances when he was running for President in 2008. And since then a reliable Republican vote on all those crazy wingnut bills - the 53 attempts to repeal Obamacare, the budget shutdowns, etc - for many years now.

    And even that wasn't enough: he's marginalized, and probably serving his last term. The Republican leadership is just waiting for him to die.

    The two Parties are not symmetrical, even with a lag, even in prospect.
     
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I rebutted him repeated over years, he keeps going on and on about how the republican are a unified hive mind that have been building their plans of national domination for decades, instead of being people, stupid, ideological people that constantly in-fight, tribilize, and form cliques like everyone else. Present republican domination is a produce of fortunate circumstances for them and unfortunate for the rest of the global, they basically forest gump-ed their way through the 2016 election, with forest being a disgusting pussy garbing pig boar. This election was fundamentally a result of economic driving party radicalization, I said this, economists like this guy says this, but iceaura continues on in his conspiracy driven world.

    Well radical elements of the republican party (no, no, shut up, these are different, these are worse, you show me Reagan saying we need to ban all Muslims and build a wall to keep out the Mexicans then I will believe) took over the republican party and won the 2016 election, so if you want the democrats to stagnant you can keep off the Bernie economic platform, if you want to win in 2020 you can join us.

    Yeah that is "moderate" by republican standards.

    He had to pander to his party base and the base has shifted ever more rightwards:

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    Well then as long as democrats remain middle of the road moderates they will keep losing, until we radicalize to counter the republicans they will pull all political issues towards the right. Oh sure they will give us gay marriage, but they will rape the poor and middle class with tax cuts for the rich until we stand up and demand economic justice.
     
  11. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    They can be OK at campaigning, they are crappy at governing. Largely because they are ideologically opposed to government.
     
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That is not moderate by English language standards.
    So he's not moderate, any more than the rest of his Party is. Done and done.
    So lefty radicalization is or is not a threat to divide the Party and make us "incompetent" - choose one.

    btw: If you compare your Wonkblog graph of ideological takeover in the Republican Party with my post #3, you can see on your graph where I got my years 1968, 1980 (Reagan), and 1994 (majority, takeover).
     
  13. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Well one, that relative to what other republicans demand, and two, your being selective, consider today when mccain said "The Congress must now return to regular order, hold hearings, receive input from members of both parties," he said in a statement." and he is one of the senators that helped jam the most recent attempt ant Obamacare repeal. Mccan may be a senile republican peice of shit, but he is marginally better when the rest of the party.

    I'm not understanding your question. Economic lefty radicalization is vital to restoring democrats and the nations future as automation and outsourcing sap the middle class dry, it is the moderate corpitists neo-liberals that are dividing the party and making us incompetent, and it is the social justice types that are all around invalid wastes of oxygen

    Reagan though was nothing compared to today republicans, even Reagan was sensible in comparison, the republican did not conspire to go insane, they simply went insane with no conscious thought.
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You've maybe not looked into Reagan - he was constrained by a Republican Party not yet gone round the bend, and a Congress dominated by Democrats, and a core financial support base comprised entirely of Americans (rather than including Russians, or in W's case Saudis) and a voting base still getting its information from actual news sources beholden to standards of journalism and personal integrity; but he was easily as whack as Trump, politically. Easily.

    As far as conscious thought - there was plenty of it, and very well financed. Here's one small but iconic example of what it produced: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4443.htm
    Take another look at that "years of practice" line: it's been years now. They've been practicing.
     
  15. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Oh what is this, things have change?, oh well finally you agree!
     
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    And provided you with the timeline - where, when, how, and by whom the Republican Party fell victim to fascist ideology, and became the Party of American fascism.

    It wasn't, always. It has been, since around 1994, as a consequence of Nixon's setting the table for Reagan. Trump is a continuation of this - ideologically and in policy etc, he's a mainstream Reagan Republican.
     
  17. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    THERE IS NO IDEOLOGY! It is a hodgepodge of conservative interests increasingly radicalized through a process of one uppsmenship via every more gerrymandered primary elections! There is no fascist principles, no final solution laid out decades ahead of time by Nixon in a mien kumpf, just complete idiocy based around every change list of slogans!

    Look the alt-right goes on and on about cultural marxist having worked for decades behind the seen to take over the left via social justice, this is a mirror image of you and your Party of American fascism theory.

    If your theory was right then the republicans would be working perfectly in lock step to implement their final solution, instead my theory is right and they are effete and incompetent!
     
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Not a coherent system of thought for guiding political decisions, no - but that's not how fascism rolls. Fascist ideology is entirely different.
    There never are, in fascist takeovers.
    Yep - that's how fascism rolls.
    Except for, you know, the reality part

    - where there aren't any such powerful and election-swaying organizations of "cultural marxists" (wtf?), and none of that bizarre crap ever happened

    but the Olin and the Koch brothers and Scaife and the rest of the rightwing rich guys meeting and pooling their efforts in local, State, and national elections; and Fox News and talk radio coordination; and the American Heritage Institute and a dozen other similarly funded and closely monitored think tanks; and the Citizen's United decision et al; do in fact exist an did in fact act as described - coordinated efforts spanning decades and involving billions of dollars;

    - where there wasn't any significant electoral manipulation and voter fraud from the likes of Acorn or anyone on "the Left"

    but there was actually serious machine manipulation and significant voter suppression and massive gerrymandering and so forth from the Republican Party in every State in which they held power;

    and so forth.
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    James Madison, in Federalist Paper #10, had some relevant observations on "factions" back in the day: http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a56400/republicans-trump-healthcare/

     
  20. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    You clearly live in your own little world that denies history and current reality. For example claiming their never is a mien kumpf in fascist take overs, I would not be citing a mien kumpf if there was not a mien kumpf in the most quintessential fascist take over ever. You just spouted utter bullshit in proclaiming fascism does not have core ideology, it does, its very existence operates on tribalism and hate. The republicans on the other hand operate on slogans and idiocy.

    Well your reality is as real as theirs.

    but george Soros and all the SJW that run all the university and Clinton and Obama (from beyond the white house no less), and CNN and MSNBC and the ACLU and the met console* all running a coordinated effort spanning decades and involving billions of dollars.

    Get real for a moment and ask google if the Koch Brothers wanted Donald Trump as president.

    Cite this machine manipulation, as for voter suppression and gerrymandering, well known as unfortunately legal when republicans make the laws. All of this did not amount to much in 2008 and 2012.

    ---

    Anyways I noticed you did not quote the test and result of our competing theories, because I'm right.

    *republicans here in minnesota go on about the met console like it was the illuminati, the met console runs the 'evil and demonic' public train service, truly complete and total puppet masters of the state.
     
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    It wasn't what you describe. And even in that tangential aspect, it is unique.
    A bizarre delusion irrevocably sold to the rubes by the media operations behind the Republican Party. What's your point?
    You don't actually buy it yourself, do you?
    The left. Try to bear down. Koch bros are rightwingers.
    Yes, it did. Also in 2010. (2000, 2002, 2004,2006, etc) And the large boost in funding since 2012 amounts to even more.
    You don't have a theory. And you don't know what mine is.

    Do you think the Republican Party is in disarray?
     
  22. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I did describe it

    A conspiracy theory, inverse of yours, but equally crazy. In short: your bullshit is just like their bullshit, just on the left side of the cow instead of the right side.

    What?

    Is it possible to you that they were ruling from 2000-2006 because enough people voted for them?

    I do: we lost because we ran a unelectable candidate. Please do tell me your theory again?

    They pretend they are solid, but underneath, between upper echelon and the low plebs, yes they are in disarray, and that is not counting the alt-right intrusion and kekistan.
     
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You misallocated my description of something different.
    Mine's not "the inverse" of that delusion, and it's not a theory. What I posted was a simple established historical account of events - you know, stuff that actually happened, what is the case in fact;

    clearly differentiated from fantasies and propaganda, stuff that did not actually happen or is not the case.

    Do you agree that actual events and circumstances differ from fictions and fantasies and delusions?
    Nope. In the first place, that begs the question. In the second, no such circumstance would account for what happened. In the third, it's false: they didn't get enough votes.
    That's not a theory.
    And your "unelectable" candidate not only got a majority of the popular vote, but was defrauded of their electoral margin - hardly "unelectable" in the ordinary sense. "Elected", in fact, in all but manipulated and corrupted legal circumstance.
    And there is no such "we".
    At which point the reason you don't know what my theories are becomes apparent.
    I don't think the Republican Party is markedly other than it was intended to be at this stage, by the people funding and organizing the faction that took it over between '68 and '94. I'm not sure "disarray" is the right word for "proceeding more or less as planned, some glitches but nothing fatal".
     

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