Reason of a Silent Mind

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by Inta'twalamayah, Sep 6, 2003.

  1. Inta'twalamayah Registered Senior Member

    I know I always talk about keeping yourself I might as well post something about it.

    Our problem is very simple in life; we find that we must keep doing, thinking, going, listening,
    running, talking or else what shall we be? We love to be filled with noise, images, words, thoughts,
    memories, fantasies, sensations, people, pleasures and good feelings. When these things are not, we
    feel bored, alone, scared and quite possibly angry and confused. The brain needs input almost
    continuously. When there is a lack of input into these amazing computer like brains our thoughts
    can fill in. We believe that these thoughts about self, about ego (the I) are the reality and that there
    is nothing more. We know of this space in between the thoughts, the words, the actions, but it seems
    we pay it no heed or we do not want to look there. But what is it about this silent space inside that
    we do not wish to face, that we try to keep covered by any means.

    I would offer that in this silence is who we are. That means not only every memory of every
    moment of our lives, many of which we can not face a second time because they are too painful. But
    it also means our true being-ness is right there, able to be experienced in the stillness of a moment
    free from everything, from every thought.

    If you have not figured it out yet, this silent awareness, this quietness is always there in you
    despite the exterior noise, the thoughts, the memories and to recognize it all you need do is stop for
    for second all the exterior and interior garbage and relax into that stillness at the core of your
    being. This is who you are, your True Self! This is the
    Nothingness which contains everything! And yet we seek to avoid this at all costs. We are always
    avoiding this void by hook and by crook. We need to fabricate, manipulate and do.

    All peace, all order, all sanity, all goodness, truth and love is right here in you. Just stop and listen with your soul.
    Everything is there. Everything is you.

    You are that which is is-ness itself.
    Silence at first can be your only companion and your worst enemy.
    That companion can lead/guide you to something unimaginable... and cuz of it, it will be the enemy of your mind.
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  3. hehe Registered Senior Member

    Trough the sound of silence!
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  5. Inta'twalamayah Registered Senior Member


    Indeed trough silence.... You have any idea of the power of doing what you said?

    I'm glad you posted that, that is my spring board for this post. Coincidence or Synchronocity?

    I'm about to post something, that would be beneficial to most who understand and follow it.

    I didnt write all of these, some explain it better than I could of in a meaningful manner. These people including myself learned it and understood it thru each other, from the experiences of Carlos Castaneda, who was a pupil of Don Juan Matus- Warrior/Nagual/Sorcerer/Shaman. Theyve expanded his knowledge for us to understand thru each otheres experiences.

    The act of Silence.... "STALKING"

    The 7 Principles of Stalking, (from the Eagle's Gift):

    Carefully choose your "battleground"
    Discard everything that is not essential
    Put your life on the line with every decision
    Relax, abandon yourself (your self?)
    Enter a new mood of optimism, self-confidence
    Compress time
    Never push yourself to the front

    There are four moods of stalking:


    Abstract from 'Power of Silence, p. 81-82, New York 1988

    "The warrior is supposed to stalk himself in these moods, when he starts stalking. By doing so, the stalker can break away from his routines. Unusual behavior can move the assemblage point if stalking is practiced systematically. Stalking is very much related to acting out controlled folly, since it gives us the opportunity to act without self importance but jet to maintain beauty and morality as well as beeing neither petty nor capricious."

    The art of stalking is a set of procedures and attitudes that enables a warrior to get the best out of any conceivable situation.

    Applying the principles of stalking brings about three results. The first is that stalkers learn to never take themselves seriously; they learn to laugh at themselves. If they are not afraid of being a fool, they can fool anyone. The second is that stalkers learn to have endless patience. Stalkers are never in a hurry, they never fret. And the third is that stalkers learn to have an endless capacity to improvise.

    ...and yet maintain beauty and morality to get things done in life, that's what I would always think about. Someone intending to move his AP by acting out controlled folly, will have to stick to that advice, I suppose.


    Although I feel far from officially qualified, I will now give my assessment of the usefulness of the principles of ‘stalking’ as outlined by Carlos Castaneda. Let’s begin by sharing those essential principles:

    The 7 Principles of Stalking from the Eagle's Gift:

    1. Carefully choose your "battleground"
    2. Discard everything that is not essential
    3. Put your life on the line with every decision
    4. Relax, abandon yourself
    5. Enter a new mood of optimism, self-confidence
    6. Compress time
    7. Never push yourself to the front


    It is my belief that these principles are for maximizing efficient impeccability in all thoughts, words, actions and reactions towards the purpose of saving and storing as much energy as possible. I believe successful moment-by-moment living is the direct result of the proper use of energy. When concentrated and focused, like a magnifying glass focusing the rays of the sun, a person can become equally exhilarated and empowered by every action performed in the face of his or her impending death. A high level of consistent energy usually manifests itself in the form of energetic happiness and well-being. A low level of consistent energy usually manifests itself as slow, depressed and lethargic actions.

    I see ‘stalking’ as the act of successfully dealing with oneself. By successfully dealing with oneself a person paves the proverbial way towards successfully dealing with others. Just as if you cannot properly love yourself you cannot properly love others, if you cannot successfully deal with yourself you cannot successfully deal with others.

    Many are those who treat themselves like trash. Their lifestyles are a testimony of abusive living devoid of the self-respect their bodies and minds deserve. They are devoid of wholesome abstract purposes in life. This means that they usually see themselves as small and separate from the universe. To properly stalk a person must have equal respect for him or herself and everything else equally. Successful stalkers must be moving towards the direction of a sense of harmonious oneness with the entire universe; being equally important to everything as a whole.

    According to Castaneda's ‘The Power of Silence’, there are four moods of stalking:


    The balanced and successful stalker applies these moods in a fluid manner adapting to all situations equally as those situations require. To be easily offended by the acts of our fellow man and life as it unfolds is to become rigid, lose a sense of fluidity and to close oneself off and reject responsibility for the life entrusted to us. Facing the ‘oncoming time’ of life as it unfolds rather than the ‘receding time’ of life as we have judged it to be is crucial in living successfully and moving towards a harmonious and happy existence.

    So, in the face of my impending death, the best way to wash dishes or clean the house in a manner that propels me inexorably forward towards greater strength and success in life is to do so in a manner that applies all these principles of stalking:

    1. Carefully choose your "battleground"
    2. Discard everything that is not essential
    3. Put your life on the line with every decision
    4. Relax, abandon yourself
    5. Enter a new mood of optimism, self-confidence
    6. Compress time
    7. Never push yourself to the front

    I remember reading how don Juan would conduct lessons on stalking when a person was in ‘heightened awareness’ because he felt that it imbued staking with a mystique that it didn’t really have. Stalking, according to don Juan, was successfully dealing with people. I tend to disagree. I believe stalking to be successfully dealing with oneself and as a result successfully dealing with people. Properly using the basic principles of stalking towards all thoughts, words, actions and reactions equally can transform any act into an exciting act of power.

    How about we bring the stalking principles into an action most people can relate to. Namely: washing the dishes. Can you not see that washing the dishes does not have to be a meaningless and mundane chore having nothing whatsoever to do with being a successful warrior? When applying the principles of stalking to the act of washing the dishes it can be transformed into an act of power as exhilaratingly exciting as any other act of power.

    Rather than ‘just a sink full of dishes’ it can be transformed into the chosen “battleground” where energy will be channeled, focused, stored and harnessed. The determination to perform the job with powerfully impeccable precision that generates excited exhilaration rather than boring weakness becomes the ‘abstract’ purpose making the process a magical act of power.

    To transform the act into a magical act of power all thoughts and actions not essential to the act must be discarded and only those thoughts and actions essential towards a total victory in the warrior battle with oneself must be entertained and deliberately used.

    Who is to say that you will not have a heart attack in the midst of the act of washing the dishes, eh? If you knew that it would be your last act on the face of the Earth the act of washing those particular dishes would be magical indeed. So to put one’s life on the line means that in each and every moment you are ready for death to tap you. Properly done such an attitude makes all actions extremely powerful and exciting.

    To relax and abandon myself as much as possible and enter a new mood of optimism means that I am the master of the act. No one in the world can convince me that some other act is more important than the one I am performing right now. I hurry without hurrying in order to compress time while entertaining a brand new mood of relaxed optimism secure in the victory over myself.

    To me, the stalking principle ‘never push yourself to the front’ means that if I push myself to the “front” I make myself more important than what I am doing. If I push myself to the front my self-importance will most probably cause me to complain and think of other things I would rather be doing thus destroying the victory I could have had if I kept myself in a position of equality to everything. Who in an actual war would be eager to push himself to the front, eh? To push oneself to the front is just asking to be killed. No, in a war a wise warrior will do his best to blend in with everything else thus making himself a much more difficult target to pinpoint.

    The only way I have found to transform an act like washing dishes into a real and exhilarating act of power is to ‘compress time’ by accelerating the velocity of my actions to the point where I am moving as fast as I possibly can without splashing soapy water all over the place. Unless I compress time chances are I will give myself too much time to think of other things I would rather be doing. Once I surrender to such thoughts I automatically ‘push myself to the front’ and strip the act of all the magical power it would have had.

    In order to master my thoughts the moods of stalking are always applied and shifted in a fluid manner deliberately done as required to make any act magical and excitingly powerful. So being…


    …is essential in mastering myself and my thoughts so that all actions are transformed into acts that are equal in the face of my impending death.

    Whenever I do not treat each and every act as a warrior stalking maneuver I sacrifice my energetic happiness and well-being in the process. If I was always determined to properly stalk myself and live like a successful warrior I would be much happier and that happiness would grow in direct proportion with my concentrated refined determination for that happiness to grow.

    I am preparing to apply the principles of stalking towards cleaning the fish tank. That is the battlefield I have now chosen.


    I believe there is at least one more principle of stalking that was left out of the 7 shared by Carlos Castaneda:


    In all movements and actions
    strive to be extremely centered and properly grounded
    in a fluid and relaxed manner


    If a person is not properly balanced/centered and deliberately grounded he or she cannot function at his or her best. Each act should be treated as an exhilarating battle for one’s life and energy should be pulled from all directions equally (from below the feet as well) and stored with ruthlessly impeccable precision. To be off balance and not properly grounded when performing any act diminishes the effectiveness of that act.


    Bruce Lee would put it: ‘Like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger least you miss all that heavenly glory. Instead concentrate upon where the finger is pointing and continually reach for absolute victory without sacrificing your moment-by-moment happiness in the process.’

    Warrior Naguals act, think as if they'll die any minute... and death in itself is enough motivation for anyone to do what needs to be done...without thought of success or failure.... just as best as it can be done, as light as it can be done.

    Act in Silence.....
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2003
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  7. Inta'twalamayah Registered Senior Member

    Thnx Nagual L. Wolf

    A Warrior is magical and ruthless, a maverick with the most refined taste and manners, whose worldly task was to sharpen,
    yet disguise his cutting edges so that no one would suspect his ruthlessness.

    [A Warrior is] not given to expressions of psychological discomfort.

    [Warriors may have empathy, but not compassion]

    Warriors are incapable of feeling compassion because they no longer feel sorry for themselves. Without the driving force of
    self pity, compassion is meaningless.

    [Warriors are, in a way, all for themselves] For a warrior, everything begins and ends with himself. However, his contact
    with the abstract causes him to overcome his feeling of self- importance. Then the self becomes abstract and impersonal.

    [Even trees can be free and independent warriors]

    Warriors don't do anything just to amuse themselves.

    A warrior needs focus.

    Warriors act not for profit, but for the spirit.

    It is a rare opportunity for a warrior to be given a genuine chance to be impeccable in spite of his basic feelings.

    [Warriors do] their utmost, and then, without any remorse or regrets, they relaxed and let the spirit decide the outcome.

    In terms of his connection with Intent, a warrior goes through four stages. one, a rusty, untrustworthy link with intent. Two
    comes when he succeeds in cleaning it. Three is when he learns to manipulate it, and four is when he learns to accept the
    designs of the abstract.

    [Warriors live impeccably] Impeccability is not morality, it only resembles morality. Impeccability is simply the best use of
    our energy levels. Naturally it calls for frugality, thoughtfulness, simplicity, innocence, and above all, it calls for lack of self

    When a man decides to do something he must go all the way...but he must take responsibility for what he does. No matter
    what he does, he must know first why he is doing it, and then he must proceed with his actions without having doubts or
    remorse about them.

    The simplest thing I do...may very well mean my death. Death is stalking me. Therefore I have no room for doubts or
    remorse...In a world where death is the hunter...there is not time for regrets or doubts. There is only time for decisions.

    To assume responsibility of one's decisions means that one is ready to die for them.

    It doesn't matter what the decision is. Nothing could be more or less serious than anything else... In a world where death is
    the hunter there are no small or big decisions. There are only decisions that we make in the face of our inevitable death.

    A Warrior...seeks power, and one of the avenues of power is dreaming. You may say that the difference between a hunter
    and a warrior is that a warrior is on his way to power, while a hunter known nothing or very little about it.

    A Warrior is an immaculate hunter who hunts power; he's not drunk, he's not crazed, and he neither has the time nor the
    disposition to bluff, or to lie to himself, or to make a wrong move. The stakes are too high for that. The stakes are his
    trimmed, orderly life which he has taken so long to tighten and perfect.

    Power is something a warrior deals first it's an incredible, far fetched affair; it is hard to even think about it. Then
    power becomes a serious matter; one may not have it, or one may not even fully realize that it exists, yet one knows that
    something is there, something which was not noticeable before. Next, power is manifested as something uncontrollable that
    comes to oneself. It is not possibly... to say how it comes or what it really is. It is nothing and yet it makes marvels appear
    before your very eyes. And finally power is something in oneself, something that controls one's acts and yet obeys one's

    A warrior has to be perfect in order to deal with the power he hunts.

    A controlled outburst and a controlled quietness were the mark of a warrior.

    Any warrior could become a man of knowledge. ...a warrior is an impeccable hunter that hunts power. If he succeeds in his
    hunting he can become a man of knowledge.

    To seek the perfection of the warrior's spirit is the only task worthy of our manhood.

    The mood of a warrior calls for control over himself and at the same time it calls for abandoning himself.

    The basic difference between an ordinary man and a warrior is that a warrior takes everything as a challenge, while an
    ordinary man takes everything as a blessing or a curse.

    A warrior must be fluid and must shift harmoniously with the world around him, whether it be the world of reason, or the
    world of will.

    ...the secret of a warrior is that he believes without believing. But obviously a warrior cannot just say he believes and let it
    go at that. That would be too easy. To just believe would exonerate him from examining his situation.

    A warrior, whenever he has to involve himself with believing, does it as a choice, as an expression of his innermost
    predilection. A warrior doesn't believe, a warrior has to believe.

    A warrior, or any man for that matter, cannot possibly wish he were somewhere else; a warrior because he lives by
    challenge, an ordinary man because he doesn't know where his death is going to find him.

    Having to believe that the world is mysterious and unfathomable was the expression of a warriors innermost predilection.
    Without it he had nothing.

    The condition of a warrior is to be aware of everything at all times.

    One of the acts of a warrior is to never let anything affect him. Thus, a warrior may be seeing the devil himself, but he won't
    let anyone know that. The control of a warrior has to be impeccable.

    ...for a warrior everything in this world is a challenge. The greatest challenge of all, of course, is his bid for power. But
    power comes from the Nagual, and when a warrior finds himself at the edge of the day, it means that the hour of the Nagual
    is approaching, the warrior's hour of power.

    You bid for power once, and that bidding is irreversible.

    As a warrior gets tighter, his seeing becomes... a direct knowing.

    The rule of thumb for a warrior is that he makes his decisions so carefully that nothing may happen as a result of them can
    surprise him, much less drain his power.

    A warrior doesn't ever leave the island of the tonal. He uses it.

    A warrior must be taught to be impeccable and thoroughly empty before he could even conceive witnessing the nagual.

    Not wanting anything was a warrior's finest attainment.

    One cannot criticize a warrior for doing his impeccable best.

    Impeccability is to do your best in whatever you are engaged in.

    A grave issue for a warrior is to know exactly when to allow his tonal to shrink and when to stop it. This is a great art; A
    warrior must struggle like a demon to shrink his tonal; and yet at the very moment the tonal shrinks, the warrior must
    reverse all that struggle to immediately halt that shrinking.

    One of the aims of the warrior's training was to cut the bewilderment of the tonal, until the warrior was so fluid that he could
    admit everything without admitting anything.

    The yell of a warrior was one of the most important issues of sorcery, and...[a warrior] was capable of focusing on his yell,
    using it as a vehicle.

    A warrior is...a prisoner of power; a prisoner who has one free choice: the choice to either act like an impeccable warrior,
    or to act like an ass. In the final analysis, perhaps the warrior is not a prisoner but a slave of power, because that choice is
    no longer a choice for him. [A warrior] cannot act in any other way but impeccably. To act like an ass would drain him and
    cause his demise.

    A warrior...cannot cling to the meanings made under the tonal's order because he knows for a fact that the totality of
    himself has but little time on this earth.

    A warrior cannot be helpless...or bewildered, or frightened, not under any circumstances. For a warrior there is time only
    for his impeccability; everything else drains his power, impeccability replenishes it.

    Impeccability is to do your best in whatever you're engaged in.

    A warrior who may be in the position of becoming a teacher must be alert in order to catch his cubic centimeter of chance.

    As a warrior progresses on the path of knowledge his left eye can clasp anything. Usually the left eye of a warrior has a
    strange appearance; sometimes it becomes permanently crossed, or it becomes smaller than the other, or larger, or different
    in some way.

    Without the sturdiness and level headedness of the warrior's way, there is no possibility of withstanding the path of

    ...the warrior's way...forces [the apprentice] into reasonableness, sobriety, and strength of character and body.

    A warrior doesn't seek anything for his solace.

    Female warriors have to do things more painful and more difficult than [jumping into an abyss].

    [Women] have their own abyss. Women menstruate. The Nagual [said] that that was the door for them. During their
    periods they become something else... The Nagual insists that [women] pay attention to everything that happens to them
    during that time... so that they could find out for themselves that there is a crack in women, a crack that they disguise very
    well. During their period, no matter how well made the disguise os, it falls away and women are bare.

    [one] shouldn't count on...victory because it's a lifelong struggle that each of us wages against our old selves.

    When one has nothing to lose, one becomes courageous. We are timid only when there is something we can still cling to.

    ...A warrior could not possibly leave anything to chance...a warrior actually affected the outcome of events by the force of
    his awareness and unbending intent. should meet strange events...with unexpected actions.

    A warrior must drop the human form in order to change, to really change. Otherwise there is only talk about change...

    One cannot change one iota as long as one holds onto the human form... A warrior knows that he cannot change, and yet
    he makes it his business to try to change, even though he knows he won't be able to. That's the only advantage a warrior
    has over the average man. The warrior is never disappointed when he fails to change.

    ...A warrior without form begins to see an eye... The formless warrior uses that eye to start dreaming. If you don't have
    form, you don't have to go to sleep to do dreaming.

    [Example of actions of a true formless warrior]

    ...she never gets mad at me. or could do anything. Sometimes I get carried away and I get physical with her and want to
    strike her. When that happens she just jumps out of the way... the next minute she doesn't even remember what I did...

    A warrior eats quietly, and slowly, and very little at a time... The Nagual told me that a warrior eats four mouthfuls of food
    at one time. A while later he eats another four mouthfuls and so on. A warrior also walks miles and miles every day.

    It takes all the time and all the energy we have to conquer the idiocy in us. And that's what matters. The rest is of no
    importance. To be an impeccable warrior will give you vigor, and youth and power.

    We choose only once... we either choose to be warriors or to be ordinary men. A second choice does not exist. Not on
    this earth.

    The only freedom warriors have is to behave impeccably. [impeccable action] is the only way to scare away the human form.

    The predilection of a man of knowledge is something he does in order to know.

    ...The most effective way to live is as a warrior. Worry and think before you make any decision, but once you make it, be
    on your way free from thoughts or worries; there will be a million other decisions still awaiting you. That's the warrior's way.

    A warrior thinks of his own death when things become unclear... The idea of death is the only thing that tempers our spirit.

    Live like a warrior! A warrior takes responsibility for his acts; for the most trivial of his acts... [to act out your thoughts is

    You must wait patiently, knowing that you are waiting, and knowing what you're waiting for. That's the warrior's way. And
    if it is a matter of fulfilling your promise then you must be aware that you are fulfilling it.

    It is up to us as single individuals to oppose the forces of our lives... only a warrior can survive. A warrior knows that he is
    waiting and what he is waiting for; and while he waits he wants nothing and thus whatever little thing he gets is more than he
    can take. If he needs to eat, he finds a way because he is not hungry. If something hurts his body he finds a way to stop the
    pain because he is not in pain. To be hungry or to be in pain means that the man has abandoned himself and is no longer a
    warrior; and the forces of his hunger and pain will destroy him.

    One learns to act like a warrior by acting, not by talking.

    A warrior has to use his will and his patience to forget. In fact, a warrior has only his will and his patience and with them he
    builds anything he wants.

    [how a warrior works for will & patience:]
    Will is something very special. It happens mysteriously. There is no real way of telling how one uses it, except that the
    results of using the will are astounding... Perhaps the first thing that one should do is to know that one can develop the will.
    A warrior knows that and proceeds to wait for it... A warrior knows that he is waiting and knows what he is waiting for. A
    warrior...knows that he is waiting for his will.

    A warrior does not abandon himself to anything, not even his death.

    A warrior treats everything with respect and does not trample on anything unless he has to.

    A warrior does not abandon himself to anything, not even his death. A warrior is not a willing partner; a warrior is not
    available, and if he involves himself with something, you can be sure that he is aware of what he is doing.

    ...for a warrior there is nothing out of control.

    Life for a warrior is an exercise in strategy... A warrior doesn't care about meanings [of life].

    ...A warrior is never available; never is he standing on the road waiting to be clobbered. Thus he cuts to a minimum his
    chances of the unforeseen.

    A warrior is never idle and never in a hurry.

    A man must be a spotless warrior or the ally may turn against him and destroy him.

    A warrior lives strategically. A warrior never carries loads he cannot handle.

    The spirit of a warrior is not geared to indulging and complaining, nor is it geared to winning or losing. The spirit of a
    warrior is geared only to struggle, and every struggle is a warrior's last battle on earth. Thus the outcome matters very little
    to him. In his last battle on earth a warrior lets his spirit flow free and clear. And as he wages his battle, knowing that his will
    is impeccable, a warrior laughs and laughs.

    A warrior selects the items that make his world.

    He selects deliberately, for every item he chooses is a shield that protects him from the onslaughts of the forces he is trying
    to use.

    Act like a warrior and select the items of your world. You cannot surround yourself with things helter-skelter any longer.

    A warrior encounters those inexplicable and unbending forces because he is deliberately seeking them, thus he is always
    prepared for the encounter.

    The first thing you must do, then, is be prepared. Think that the ally is going to pop in front of your eyes any minute and you
    must be ready for him. To meet an ally is no party or Sunday picnic and a warrior takes the responsibility of protecting his
    life. Then if any of those forces tap you and open your gap, you must deliberately strive to close it by yourself. For that
    purpose you must have a selected number of things that give you great peace and pleasure, things which you can
    deliberately use to take your thoughts from your fright and close your gap and make you solid.

    In his day to day life a warrior chooses to follow the path with a heart. It is the consistent choice of the path with heart
    which makes a warrior different from the average man. He knows that a path has a heart when he is one with it, and when
    he experiences a great peace and pleasure traversing it's length. The things a warrior selects to make his shields are the
    items of a path with heart.

    ...Now, you must surround yourself with the items of a path with heart and you must refuse the rest or you will perish in the
    next encounter [with the ally].

    [on internal dialog]: We talk [to ourselves] about our world. In fact we maintain our world with our internal talk...
    Whenever we finish talking to ourselves the world is always as it should be. We renew it, we kindle it with life, we uphold it
    with our internal talk. Not only that, but we also choose our paths as we talk to ourselves. Thus we repeat the same
    choices over and over until the day we die, because we keep on repeating the same internal talk over and over until the day
    we die. A warrior is aware of this and strives to stop his talking. This is the last point you have to know if you want to live
    like a warrior.

    [To stop internal dialog]: First of all, you must use your eyes to take some of the burden from your eyes. We have been
    using our eyes to judge the world since the time we were born. We talk to others and to ourselves mainly about what we
    see. A warrior is aware of that and listens to the world; he listens to the sounds of the world.

    A warrior is aware that the world will change as soon as he stops talking to himself and he must be prepared for that
    monumental jolt.

    [For an average man, the world is never a mystery] and when he arrives at old age he is convinced he has nothing to live
    for. An old man has not exhausted the world. He has exhausted only what people do. But in his stupid confusion he
    believes that the world has no more mysteries for him... A warrior is aware of this confusion and learns to treat things
    properly. The things that people do cannot under any conditions be more important than the world. And thus a warrior
    treats the world as an endless mystery and what people do as an endless folly.

    Fright is something one can never get over...when a warrior is caught in such a tight spot [unannounced ally encounter] he
    would simply turn his back to the ally without thinking twice. A warrior cannot indulge, thus he cannot die of fright. A
    warrior allows the ally to come only when he is good and ready.

    When he is strong enough to grapple with the ally he opens his gap and lurches out, grabs the ally, keeps him pinned down,
    and maintains his stare on him for exactly the time he has to, then moves his eyes away and releases the ally and lets him go.
    A warrior... is the master at all times.

    ...The battlefield of warriors was the second attention, which was something like a training ground for reaching the third
    attention. It was a state rather difficult to arrive at, but very fruitful once it was attained.

    The recommendation for warriors is not to have any material things on which to focus their power, but to focus it on the
    spirit, on the true flight into the unknown, not on trivial shields.

    [On the compulsion to possess and hold onto things] Everyone who follows the warrior's path, the sorcerer's way, has to
    rid himself of this fixation.

    ...A warrior knows that he is waiting and knows also what he is waiting for, and while he waits he feasts his eyes on the
    world... the ultimate accomplishment of a warrior was joy.

    The course of a warrior's destiny is unalterable... the challenge is how far he can go within those rigid bounds, how
    impeccable he can be within those rigid bounds.

    If there are obstacles in his path, the warrior strives impeccably to overcome them. If he finds unbearable hardship and pain
    on his path, he weeps, but all his tears put together could not move the line of his destiny the breadth of one hair.

    ...detachment did not automatically mean wisdom, was, nonetheless, an advantage because it allowed the warrior to
    pause momentarily to reassess situations, to reconsider positions. In order to use that extra moment consistently and
    correctly, however, ...a warrior had to struggle unyieldingly for a lifetime.

    ...the Nagual was a perfect warrior. He was not caught in webs of sensuality.

    A warrior is someone who seeks freedom.

    ...When we become warriors... intent becomes our friend. us be free for a moment; at times it even comes to us, as had
    been waiting around for us.

    Act. Experience. Learn

    Last edited: Sep 8, 2003
  8. exsto_human Transitional Registered Senior Member

    Interesting assessments Inta'twalamayah.

    Carlos Castanedas books do fascinate me, but also display a detachment from physical reality which will tend to deter us in the modern world. I think many of the teachings (of Don Juan and others) can be applyed to our own lives, but as it is commonly known these were for the most part not realy intended for public knowledge and remained a master-student issue. The reason being their deep intergration and meaning in the other-world and thought systems of shamanism and sorcery, that are not all too pertinent in their context to the modern world. Therefore much of it remains bleak and hard or even impossible to understand for most people.
    However what you have posted makes much sense and infact coincides much with the awareness-teachings of other disciplines such as Buddhism. I can see it as a valuable help for anyone wishing to increase their inner awareness and inner peace to follow those principals.

    I also feel from personal experience, that it is in true silence(awareness) that the mind is at peace and is in it's natural state.
    As a rule we love to indulge ourselves in our world. We love to be happy, we love to feel sad, we love having sex and drinking alcohol, we love suffering. And it is this love of the world that keeps us suffering. However in a state of awareness we can see these emotions coming and we can see them going, we can notice their impermanence and their lack of meaning. And with the proper training with we will notice how these emotions are getting weaker, and how their hold on our reality is fading.
  9. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

    This is a subject that has always intrigued me; I was once a devotee of a martial art which claimed warriorship of this kind - the "Spiritual Warrior". It took me ten years to understand the problems that I had with this concept.

    Warriorship is another kind of feeling. I am not sorry to admit this; the search for martial perfection is not a pure motivation and it should not be cast in this light. Examine the four types of stalking:

    Cunning - surround, fade, act without being seen. When you can see the target's actions lying entirely within yours, when you can contain all that they will do, success is obviously not far behind. Cunning is seeking to grasp everything gently.

    Patient - the rewards of rash action are always what you expect. The rewards of patience often surprise you! When you feel the passage of time as leading you closer to your goal, the wait is a pleasant one; if you wait long enough, you can own the world. This is a reason to desire immortality.

    Ruthless - let fall your words like thunder! The means to overmastering a situation lie in moving first, strongly, and precisely. What will the actions of others be then, but feeble, clumsy and late? The momentum that actions gather about them is weak at the start; stop them then.

    Sweet - without identity and understanding, actions will always be misplaced and incomplete. It is a pleasure to see things the way they are, and hating the components of your struggle will blind you to their nature. It is easy to love those things that help you on your way! Learn to love the obstacle, for in your appreciation you will more easily encompass them.

    These may not be the definitions given by Mr. Castaneda, of course, but I give them to illustrate the example. These are all feelings! Don't mistake them for pure principles, or even pure interpretations of principles.

    Warriorship is always sold by way of its feelings, since these are the easiest part to come upon in the beginning - the warrior feelings are strong and easily taken on by most people, any age, any type.

    However, it is a mistake to believe that the strength of the sensation that these give is any justification for the warrior mindset and its associated set of techniques.
  10. Inta'twalamayah Registered Senior Member

    Wow Big Blue...

    Thnx for claryifying that for others, that might of gotten "principles" mixed with "moods" which I said above.

    I never said those are principles, I said those are "moods" one must be fluidly and at the same time complement each other going from one to the other in the right times to entertain oneself to stay focus on his "goal" managed by his "principles."

    Yes, everyone might have there own principles they might use and follow but without heart - it wont be meaningful... and thats where those "feelings" come in , to push ones self to doo with dedication and lightly as possible.

    I may be wrong but, you yourself seemed to have applied a principle with each of these "moods". Which isnt bad, and I like what you got from them- very nice.

    Except I think of them just as they are... ruthless, sweet, patient, cunning... there are many wayz to look and apply them, depending on who you are or what your doing. The key is not to be constant but fluid - just with life. And that applies not only cycling thruought them but cycling ur view within them - for expansion.

    "Warriorship is always sold by way of its feelings, since these are the easiest part to come upon in the beginning - the warrior feelings are strong and easily taken on by most people, any age, any type."
    --Thats why I agree on following principles!
    The feelings arent the mindset, what you want to achieve(goal) and do (principles) to complete it is where the mindset is focused upon! For best results. The moods are the spring board.

    What if someone gets you mad? Most will fight?... the mood is the spring board.

    What if you like or love someone? You'll be nice? The mood is the spring board.

    What if smoking made someone you knew die? If you smoke you might think twice? The mood is the spring board.

    Like part of what you said
    "by way of its feelings, since these are the easiest part to come upon in the BEGINNING"

    Whatever principles... is control of self, control of ones emotions for maximum effect and not be blind yet at the same time silence them as much as possible.

    Being fluid with them within principles and yet not letting them touch you so hard (silencing them as much as possible) to not act blindly but act lightly as possible for great effect, is an Art one must master for self control.

    You seperate moods and purpose when they should complement each other.

    To be in control of self and emotions doesnt mean to be insentient, to have no feelings. Thats empytiness in the wrong way.
    Empty as in being formless, being nothing, when anything and emotions dont have you in control.

    Allow me to post this quote again by Bruce Lee... it fits since you yourself are into martial arts.

    Bruce Lee would put it: ‘Like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger least you miss all that heavenly glory. Instead concentrate upon where the finger is pointing and continually reach for absolute victory without sacrificing your moment-by-moment happiness in the process.’

    The moon, finger, and moment.

    Lets say when out late night, the beauty of the Moon can inspire(Mood/Moment/Finger) me to do something beautiful, or act morally toward others, plant flowers/clean up some/share, love... something from the Heart (finger/principle/mood)to guide me to achieve the vision or to be more compassionate(moon/goal/moment) the moment inspired me to do.

    The Purpose, Guide, and Self.
    Complementing each other fluidly, as a whole.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2003
  11. Inta'twalamayah Registered Senior Member

    There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. But doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to everything.
  12. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

    Part of what I am trying to impart is that the martial outlook that people often adopt "in all things" (by reading Sun Tzu or the Book of Five Rings, for instance) represents an immediate danger which people do not grasp because of its encompassing mood.

    To put is briefly, the martial outlook, the view of the "spiritual warrior" often described in the manuals, often abjectly fails to determine the cost of an action.

    Why? The mood of pursuit and encompassing will that usually characterizes this view tends to define costs entirely in terms of the effort required. This means that the costs for all pursuits and actions appears ephemeral in this mood, because effort is always available, and theoretically wasted if it is not directed to some goal.

    However, after a martial arts class and a number of years of reflection, I have come to realize that the warrior mindset fails to consider the physical cost to your body that inevitably comes with learning fighting skills. Many people have not been injured and do not know what it means; more people believe that the injuries are unimportant, or temporary, or worthwhile. This is, in part, because the failure to acknowledge the cost of actions is endemic to martial arts (and other physical endeavours like sports) and, to some degree, the rest of society.

    Mood/feeling can lead you astray when you don't know what it's for, or what it means.
  13. Inta'twalamayah Registered Senior Member

    Aahhhh the "Art of War"

    I see what you mean, and can understand to a point.

    "To put is briefly, the martial outlook, the view of the "spiritual warrior" often described in the manuals, often abjectly fails to determine the cost of an action."
    -maybe cuz the cost can vary, can be many different things, have many different view points depending on a person, so it makes You find it so You yourself can find what will be the cost to You?

    Theres no doubt a cost to every action, wether it be from you or from someone else, toward you even, "good" "bad" or both etc etc. You should know that by now -everyone should- its like common wisdom.
    But the thing isnt about the cost of an action, you should think of the "worth" of the action, to me thats more important in my view. Whenever you find its worth you will pay the cost, or not.
    Maybe thats also why the manuals dont speak of "costs" , it speaks of its "worth", and in so you will decide if you want to pay or not? Does that make sense?

    "Why?The mood of pursuit and encompassing will that usually characterizes this view tends to define costs entirely in terms of the effort required."
    - Did you make that up? The key thing that catches my eye there is the word "effort."
    Mood, will, & effort.
    ....I dont know but that sounds like part of the answer to me. And yes, I believe that effort is a cost worth paying for if you are truly dedicated to an intended action. -Yet effort doesnt really seem like a cost, cuz it should be applied to all actions.

    Whats an action without effort and will and heart....? Lazy? Slack, sluggish? Slow? ... what will be the worth of it then?
    Think of cost in that view. And it will propell you -in a way- to act out as a warrior.

    I'm not sure of what the 'art of war' says but it would be good to take the effort in viewing ALL costs as possible.... for theres always a cost to a action, to really high or really low, yet viewing them you may find someway to lessen the price yet still gain a respectable result.

    I know if you read some of Sun Tzu, you have an idea of when choosin life or death - metaphorically - , or not if need be. That a warrior would rather choose death?
    As in he'll pay the cost to achieve what he wants.

    "The Way of the Samurai is found in death. Meditation on inevitable death should be performed daily. Every day when one's body and mind are at peace, one should meditate upon being ripped apart by arrows, rifles, spears and swords, being carried away by surging waves, being thrown into the midst of a great fire, being struck by lightning, being shaken to death by a great earthquake, falling from thousand-foot cliffs, dying of disease or committing seppuku at the death of one's master. And every day without fail one should consider himself as dead."

    Compare Death, Winning, Loosing, Chance, & Life. In as many ways possible, philosophically or not and see if you find anything in common, as many as possible, and you might find something useful.

    Moods/Feelings can lead you astray indeed if you dont know its meaning, or where its from...... Thats in part what I mean by silencing an emotion, as in you use it for effect, but it doesnt effect you(acting blindly on anger etc etc)... See the emotion anger is a Yang(positive?) type of emotion, it has great energy to fuel you into action... for example, like other day I was mad, and I used that energy, transformed that energy to clean the house some, very quick, hard, and silent, as in not letting the reason for this anger to come to mind... for then I'll lose my focus on what I'm doing. Go back to the 7 principles "the eagles gift" and you will see how I applied this energy to work for me.

    I'll show how the moods came into play here PART...
    this ANGER, I "Ruthlessly" kept in check by silencing the mind from the reason it came to be. I "Cunningly" changed my Anger filled energy to something "Sweet" by using that energy to clean. And was "patient" as in putting myself into the work putting the time into it, combined with all the other 4 moods interchanging, to compress time(doing it quick and effeciently), to help me keep my focus on what I'm doing to not go astray or slack.
    -I hope that helped you understand my line of thinking when I talk about these Four moods... which can change use and be applied to other things. I use them as an "ART OF WAR" against a sense. A strategy. To do what I need to do or for self control, and more,
    thats 1 reason its important for a "silent mind" and at times for Feelings/Emotions that can lead you astray, not knowing what its for or where it came from, it makes you aware and perceptive of things you might miss, things under the current, in awareness you are more receptive to gain knowledge. And knowledge protects.
    -its important to learn the differences between "knowing" and "understanding" in times like that.

    If you liked th"art of war" , read a book by Nicolai Machiavelli "The Prince" theyre from two different worlds yet share something in common. He describes how a Prince, a King, a Leader, should be in his view. And to me and him, he was right to describe him as the Lion and a Fox. Ruthless, and Cunning, and being cunning means to know when to be sweet, and patient, which ruthless can apply to as well.
    Its odd how Castaneda came up with those same "moods" as well.

    -Observe Nature, and you will constantly see those 4 moods.
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2003
  14. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

    You said:
    Not so odd! Once you have developed these "moods" they will shape the way you look at things.

    Look for the number 17 in your surroundings. Look, even for a short time, and you'll see it everywhere. This is not a property of the number 17. It's your ability to change your outlook to emphasize the things you are trying to find. It's a useful ability! But, a person has to be careful not to miss important things as well.

    Why? Because when we develop an idea, like a religion or the four moods, it's a pattern that we like - it speaks to us the way the thunderstorm speaks to us, and how can we ignore these words? Words like a storm in our heart?

    However, let me illustrate the problem.

    We can recognize that a lion is a dangerous thing. We see its prodigious muscles and long sharp teeth.

    When looking at water creatures, we are much less good at telling which things are dangerous and which are not, particularly with things that are smaller than we. Small aquatic predators tend to be round and fuzzy in fresh water. In the salt water, one of the most successful predators is the squid. These things do not strike us as being well-designed for their tasks, but they are all the same.

    So beware of encompassing moods; by being absorbed in your way of looking at things, you can make crippling omissions without realizing it.

    (That to some extent is one of the messages of The Prince, that the difference between the way things look to other people and the way they really are is important.)

    Finally, meditating on your own death is not a general principle; it is intended specifically to free you from fear of injury and death, so that you don't hesitate to commit to actions that may kill you. It will not make you a better violin player! This is part of what I mean when I say that the adoption of the warrior outlook can narrow your vision.
  15. Inta'twalamayah Registered Senior Member

    "Finally, meditating on your own death is not a general principle; it is intended specifically to free you from fear of injury and death, so that you don't hesitate to commit to actions that may kill you. It will not make you a better violin player! This is part of what I mean when I say that the adoption of the warrior outlook can narrow your vision."

    .... Is that the best thing you can say about that? Are Yooouuu that narrow minded? Your looking at it in a totally different light than me.

    Did you come up with anything with the words Death, Winning, Loosing, chance and life?

    Its not only about losing fear and it isnt about being better at something - a violin player! Its about, that it all doesnt really matter.... its nothing.... our actions are gone in the wind the costs is paid in our death, the worth is remembered but that doesnt matter either - thats what it means to be "dead"... to be dead is to be detached from expectations, to be detached from the self.
    And to be detatched from the self in part can mean to have no fear.

    All you can do is do your best - to satisfy your spirit , so when you dooo DIE/lose/death/ you know you tried, and you wont be truly disapointed, unsatisfied, wont be looked down upon, hold your head up.... cuz what happend? YOu gave it your all, and that shows your worth!! To Die Honorably, to lose with respect. Yet thats not whats a warrior is after. For he will always act with respect and honor, you understand? So his worth doesnt mean anything to Himself, but maybe to others, but not him, his gain comes from the lesson... the experience.

    What are you looking at in all this? Some kind of gain? To be something?

    The moods will shape the way I look at things? LOL!!!! The way I LOOK at THINGS?! The MOODS dont SHAPE ME, how can they?! I'm the one using them, not the other way around.
    -thats in part what it means to be DEAD! what it means to be SILENT Nothing, cuz then how can they?

    the number 17 everywhere and the moods comparing to each other... dont do that with these moods, thats a weak and petty thing to try and compare! What does a number and a mood have in common?! NOTHING!

    You still have no idea of what I mean with these moods... maybe its the wrong word. heh

    Think of the 4 moods and emotions as two seperate things.
    Look back how I used the moods to control an emotion.

    Imagine each mood as a different person, or different animals. 1 cunning, another ruthless, patient, and sweet.

    "We can recognize that a lion is a dangerous thing. We see its prodigious muscles and long sharp teeth."
    -if thats all you see your blind.

    as for
    "This is part of what I mean when I say that the adoption of the warrior outlook can narrow your vision."
    ...sigh... I dont think you even know what it means to be a warrior then, if thats what you think of it.
    Did you even read the post after the 1 with the 7 principles and moods?!

    I'll have to stop. For now, I hope when you post you post something understanding towards, instead of always trying to create some conflict without even first seeing what I'm seeing.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2003
  16. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

    Why would you assume that a tool can't change your perception? We wear glasses, don't we? The mood, and the principle, are no less tools, and they can change the evidence of your senses in the same way.

    The reason why I called the martial arts to light is not because I wanted to trade aphorisms! I am rather tired of this form of philosophy, because it ignores a crucial point. The point is this:

    You are safe.

    You are safe from all of the things that a person normally fears, as much as you could ever expect to be. Sure, you might be hit by a car or blown up by political extremists, but the level of safety that you enjoy is far beyond what any normal person could have expected one hundred years ago.

    As such, when you sit in your living room and concentrate on your martial process, imagining your own death, picturing all situations in your life as a struggle, you're wasting your energy as surely as if you were rolling around the yard, screaming and waving your arms and legs.

    The time to adopt the martial outlook is when you are in DANGER. To try to characterize, say, your marriage as a war is a flawed way of looking at things, because what happens when your spouse disagrees with you? You bring your power to bear on them, and they are forced either to agree with you, lie to you, or be broken.

    Or worse still, you can "pretend" to let them have their way, secretly thinking that you are still in control. When you are at war, what is someone who disagrees with you? Either they are the enemy, or they are a resource.

    And what do you get for this martial attitude? In the event that twenty gunmen storm your house, perhaps you might live a little longer. Since that doesn't happen very often...

    I hate to bring modern literature to bear, but you should try playing Metal Gear Solid and hear what they have to say about war, and being a soldier in that game.

    Video game reference. Hoo boy...
  17. Inta'twalamayah Registered Senior Member

    Ahhh good job Now your getting somewhere!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Yes its a "tool" just like my mind is a tool. Just like glassess are a tool to help someone see.
    The way you were seeming to imply the mood was as if the mood MAkES me do things without me being able to think straight , like I lost my control... then it wouldnt be a tool anymore would it?

    The "war" isnt against anyone else, but against the self, for self control and thats where my "tools" come in, to keep myself in check yet entertain me to stay focus, while at the same time to become detactched from expectations from the self and do what must be done, with the idea that, I do not think myself important but what I MUST DO IS. What you describe as a "war" I see as a challenge, to experience, to learn, and maybe change for a mutual agreement, as with the spouse example.

    All life IS a struggle indeed, and death used as a metaphor makes you realize this "Struggle" doesnt have to be taken so serious, cuz you know it will end one day so it all seems vain.
    like you said, to think of it as a constant struggle is a waste of energy...
    So how would I change this struggle to get the best out of it?
    Struggle comes when something isnt in agreement?
    Thats why I call using the moods using the principles properly an art.

    And the warrior will change this struggle, not by going against it but by letting it come as a challenge, to gain as much from it as possible for expansion and understanding of the reason it came to be, with this knowledge, he is more quickly able to find the reason, the lesson, the worth. So next time it will be like mist he is able to walk thru. Thats what it is to be FORMLESS.

    And to face this struggle , one needs control, SILENCE or be as if dead, so the SELF wont change the challenge back to a struggle, thats why I use those principles those moods when I call them an Act of War against myself.

    Like the last of the eagles gift... it says dont put yourself to the front... becuz if you do you may not be able see all the points to the situation cuz your comparing it to how YOU want to look at it, not how IT presents itself to you. Like the spouse example, she might think this you think that, creating conflict.
    If you just drop the Self importance, you will see where she is coming from, and in understanding her she may listen to you and be more open, thats the gain.

    But a warrior shouldnt ever come into a struggle like that for he is SILENT... he doesnt think of himself, thats to be as dead. Yet he doesnt just back down so easily to what he knows is "right" or "wrong" for him and he finds those in the silence. He listens, observes, absorbs, and expands, his "perception his awarness" in doing so. That way he will know how to act or react to best effect when need be, so that means hes always prepared, he always worries before he acts to be safe.
    So to put yourself to the front, You become more important than the goal, the challenge, the lesson. When all life is nothing but a lesson.
    To not put yourself to the front... that is to be EMTPY.

    To be Empty is to touch everything, without everything touching you. To be formless is for everything to touch you, without you touching it.

    "Our bodies are given life from the midst of nothingness. Existing where there is nothing is the meaning of the phrase, "form is emptiness." That all things are provided for by nothingness is the meaning of the phrase, "Emptiness is form." One should not think that these are two separate things."

    But I still get the feeling you dont truly hit the mark, but again I see your getting close...
    Dont only think of a "warrior" "death" "war" in the sense of our everday world, comparing them with battles and soldiers, struggles, pain, etc etc. Theres always some subjective view in those, and notice how they all become something negative.

    The warrior I speak of is abstract. Objective. Only subjective thru necessity. And thats what makes him light.

    I'm glad this might be going somewhere.
    I'm not done tho, But I have to go for now.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2003
  18. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

    This worries, this worries me that i actually agree with some of things posted in parapsychology subforum.

    Silence is golden is said for a reason.

    After talking frivolously for a few mintues i just like to be very quiet and relax the head. I don't talk much at all unless i am present in a company of likeminded people
  19. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

    Careful, sarge! Silence is not always golden. I will probably learn more butting heads with Inta'twalamayah on sciforums than I would preaching to my own brand of converted (or whatever).

    There is a quote that has become popular recently, from Twain:

    "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

    Unfortunately, many people have taken it to mean:

    "It is better to keep your mouth shut and never learn anything than to open it and be proven wrong."

    Most people believe that losing an argument is a failure! Except that when you lose an argument that means you were wrong about something that you thought you were right about. In this context, "Agreeing to disagree" is a big mistake because that way you failed to learn anything.

    That is why I will argue with Inta until the cows come home. It's not because I believe that I will make him into my ideological zombie slave! I'm arguing with him 'cause I've never been in an argument that made me stupider afterwards, but I've been in a few that made me smarter, so it's worth the try.

    Now - for Inta'twalamayah:

    My concern is partly with the more material conception of war, struggle, and so on; many people take the idea of the "spiritual warrior" in this light, and believe that they will become Kwi Chang Kane when they get their black belt in Taekwondo. BUT that's not the only thing I'm talking about.

    Some people get around their difficulties by casting themselves into a shape, one might say a shape that more easily fits the hole that they are in. (Although this is a bit dramatic.) This shape makes the uncomfortable actions more comfortable, the difficult actions more manageable, and the wait simpler.

    (Modern reference once again. To see a fairly visceral example of this, read the beginning of Snow Crash. The character called Hiro Protagonist is a pizza delivery man, and refers to himself in his internal monologue as The Deliverator.)

    The problem with acting this way is that it is not the same as casting your TOOLS into a shape, which would be the most beneficial. Instead, it is trying to reduce your thought and behaviour to only one of the planes of your experience. I shall try to illustrate an example without being too silly.

    Let us say that you are a waiter, and let us say that you hate being a waiter. You know that by being a smooth, helpful, and efficient waiter you will get more money, even though you hate putting on the waiter act that everyone wants. Jus at the moment, you need the money and you cannot get another job. (This happens, believe me.)

    So, instead of blandly suffering through the endless hours of waitering, and the unctuous platitutes you have to utter to get the tips you so desperately need, you can construct a persona for yourself... a shape.

    You are Space Butler.

    You are the most advanced waiter in the galaxy. Waiting tables is your job and you do it effortlessly, without a care in the world - it is what you are made for. Remembering all the orders is easy. Carrying wide trays of fragile objects comes naturally. You are free of the fear of failure as a waiter, because the odds against it are astronomical! After all, you are Space Butler.

    (Apologies to fans of Excel Saga... I just like Space Butler.)

    At night, when the job is finished, you can tear off your bowtie and cummerbund and be yourself. But, at work, you assume your work persona because you find it makes the hours go by faster, and the angling for tips easier.

    You may well ask, "What again is the point of this story?"

    The point is that you are doing yourself a disservice by trying to cast yourself into a shape in this manner. (This is what Sartre called "Bad Faith" - lying to yourself.)

    Why? Because by trying to cast yourself into a shape you are trying to become a tool, instead of use one. The real you isn't the person performing the action - it's the part of you that observes yourself, and in trying to become solely the one who performs the action you are trying to submerge the observer.

    Somewhat like when you try to analyze another person's thoughts and actions; you model them in your head, to imagine what they might think or do, but you shouldn't try to "be" them in the way that you "are" yourself.

    That's why I take issue with placing a label on yourself, even if it's vague. You don't need a label or a shape for the part of you that's actually you.
  20. Inta'twalamayah Registered Senior Member

    The material.... is that why you seem to have trouble understanding?

    First off dont think in the line of materialisitic when thinking of a "spiritual" warrior. Spirit isnt about that. Have you not caught on to that yet?

    The thing about filling in these shapes in the material, is your filling in a shape that someones else created. Remember the spirit warrior is formless and empty, in this he KNOWS himself, yet he has enough dicipline to be able to adapt to a situation to take a shape for that situation to gain the most out of it, and know where hes coming from, know who he is, filling in a shape doesnt lead him away from himself, cuz his personal side is distinguished. Making it easy to go in and out of a "shape" he, fills the slot and yet seperate from it. Like water in a cup. It takes form of it cuz thats where it is at the MOMENT.

    "Instead, it is trying to reduce your thought and behaviour to only one of the planes of your experience"

    You almost touched something there.... except to reduce your thoughts and behavior in the spirit fashion is to be in control of the self, and when your mind isnt so busy speaking to itself its more open to whats going on your not reducing your plane of experience, your more aware of the experience. To be silent is to be aware, be in the now, to be in the moment. And thats all we truly have is the moment for its the Now, like some say the now is the key to eternity.

    Your example with the waiter is really close, he did a "cunning" manuver making the situation sweet, to tolerate his situation.
    Tho you brought his Personal side into play by saying he Hates being a waiter. And since he Hated it, it becomes a Struggle... and like you said thats a waste of energy. Which made it heavy for him, the personal is like that.
    Didnt you say emotions Can lead one astray! well thats an example. Read your own advice! So what is he being lead astray from?

    And yet you seem to think that by shaping himself for it he looses a part of himself cuz of it. You say hes lying to himself becuz he Hates the situation when hes acting like he likes it.
    -Thats all cuz of the personal. And thats the lie. Hes comparing himself to what else is possible when it isnt even the moment.

    Saying that the personal self is the lie may be extreme to you and many. Thats what people say when they have to stay silent - meditate, to reach the higher self. And maybe thats why most people have a hard time grasping the spirit, or understanding the "spiritual warrior". That is why I say the principles and moods is an art of war against the self. Without the personal, without the constant internal dialogue hes more focused , more aware, of whats going on around him in the moment. Which can make a person put all of himself to what hes doing or not, it makes him Totally there.

    You talk about shape.... well we've been shaped from birth. To follow rules of society, beliefs, ideas from other people. Shaped from the outside. Creating standards for ourselves due to what others think is good or not, comparing ourselves to others.
    And thats where the personal is flawed. Just like the waiter, he says he Hates his job cuz the outside says being a waiter is crummy, that you can do something better, and in being something better- making more money- being higher class- etc etc, he thinks HE then becomes better. See the materiality in that? THAT IS THE LIE.

    And one of a shamans, a spiritual warriors, goals is to erase that.
    Without the Personal, one become more Objective. Without the Personal, the part thru which viewing themselves comparing themselves to things they were shaped to be, one becomes more Abstract, for then he doesnt find himself in objects and views of others , so he realizes thats not truly him. He looks elsewhere, from within out. Yet he has to temper the spirit, maintain discipline, first. Understand when people say you cant properly help anyone unless you help yourself first.

    Like I said in a different post...
    -"And now I am going to tell you a great truth, and if you are wise, you will take it to your heart. All men are stupid. They are full of fear and insecurity- it makes them weak. Always the other man seems stronger, more confident, more capable. It is a lie of the worst kind, for we lie to ourselves."

    They talk about how come my life IS so shitty. I could do something better, make more money and live at ease. So now to get away from the IS -the shittiness that they created by comparing, they think of what COULD BE, for all the wrong reasons. And thats where the cycle begins.

    Lets say theres a Millionare, hes got life easy cuz hes rich.... but hes depressed cuz he thinks himself ugly. Now he envies the Waiter, becuz the waiter looks beautiful, yet the waiter is looking at life as a struggle. While the millionare is envying the Waiter cuz he looks good, and meanwhile the Waiter is envying the Millionare cuz hes rich!!!! see the stupidity in being so personal at times, and so material? They cant stand the IS they look at it in all view points and deliberatly try to find something they dont like, by comparing, by standards of OTHER peoples views. So its like a competition to be the best at everything to please others and thru that think higher of themselves- to satisfy the ego. And yet they know all this materiality wont even last!

    Why you think I speak of to be as dead, to be silent, to think of death? NOTHING material lasts so why try so hard to please yourself, to struggle for it just to be happy with life? When being happy and loving comes from within...the now truly is eternity! So when people say you can make life what you want, in part thats what they mean.

    How come your like right there! so close to what I'm seeing, yet not seeing it? Some of what you said thru out all this is in line but just different view, but still your not totally seeing it when all the answers have been already written before we even began talking. So why? Is your personal trying to keep pride, by trying to show me something that I already dont know? How you think I came into all this?
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2003
  21. BigBlueHead Great Tealnoggin! Registered Senior Member

    OK, I'm seeing part of the break here.

    I don't believe that your spirit is divided from your mind in such a way that it can save you from your own crooked thoughts, if crooked they be.

    Many people seek to use the technique of casting themselves into a shape to comfort themselves so that life is less irritating or, as you say, to get more out of their situation. However, the structure of our lives is such that people cast themselves into the SAME shape many times, a gear to fit with the other gears.

    It seems normal, unfortunately, for many people to decide on a "best" shape, a coggy shape to fit into the machine, and this will affect their outlook on many things: most concerned with the smooth operation of their work, they often ignore things they should perhaps pay attention to.

    For example - let's say you're at a company party of some kind and there is a presentation. The speaker tells an unpleasant joke about their kids, and everybody laughs.

    Was it funny?
    Do people not love their kids?

    No... the laughers don't really care at all. They are doing the expected thing, retaining their perfect shape, and once the nasty joke has gone by and is gone they still have their job. They've done the right thing, in their impression. After all, the job pays for the house, the kids live in the house... they laughed at the nasty kid joke because they loved their kids, right?

    But do this too long and you start to think that's how things are; you don't need to pretend any more because you're so good at it that's what you have become.

    I know an author who needs illustrations for something they is writing. Ask them why they don't draw the pictures themselves? They respond, "I am an AUTHOR, not an ILLUSTRATOR." So the thing they're writing never gets finished, because they are an AUTHOR all and only.

    Adopting a label can stunt your way of thinking about things. I'm sure that you've seen people do this to themselves. That is why I warn against assuming a label, any label. Particularly if you consider yourself to be fundamentally formless.

    If a being is fundamentally formless, why cast and characterize its actions by calling it a warrior? This is a highly loaded term, and made all the worse by the fact that it's easy for most people to accept - it fits with the popular idea that life is a miserable, suffering existence. It's easy for everyone to bring their thoughts in line with this shape because most people believe that they are the victim of constant injustices (which they often are, whether they see them clearly or not).

    What I'm saying is that you should be very careful of something that feels right or comes easily. The broken, bitter version of the spiritual warrior - the one who hides behind stolidity to prevent others from understanding them - is easy enough to find in a lot of people.

    (They actually sell this in children's literature, of all places - read a few young adult type books about being a young man, and see how many of them are about learning to seethe inwardly instead of expressing yourself.)

    The point I'm trying to make is that even the warrior form (the helpful one) is only something you should assume at need and NOT REGULARLY. It's important to be what you are when you're not casting yourself into a shape, because otherwise you can forget.

    You can watch people forget, every day, like my author friend. It's sad, because you don't know if they'll ever remember again.

    And... um... that's the point of my original statement at the top. I have ample and concerning evidence that if your mind gets stunted and compressed by assuming the same set of shapes for too long, there's no overriding "spirit" that will save you from your own mistake, 'cause your spirit's right along for the ride with your mind.

    I know I'm talking about slightly more material considerations than you've exposited here, but I'm trying to look at material considerations in the sense that cars are material, and you want to avoid being hit by them. There are material concerns that can affect your mental well-being and result in a damaging change to your perspective. Sometimes, financial trouble can even ruin love.


    I'm not trying to look better than you! By this point I doubt anyone is reading this thread but you and I; to be honest I'm impressed that you're still here, since most people run screaming from an argument this long and complicated. (I thought I'd lost you back at post 12.)

    I'm not trying to own you or browbeat you into my point of view. I'm looking for synthesis, which I admit is a little difficult for most people to understand. But, look at it this way.

    If I want to learn about plants I ask a botanist, and I believe what they say.
    If I want to learn about cooking I ask a chef, and I believe what they say.

    If I want to learn about how to be myself... I'd have to be some kind of idiot to ask someone else and believe them like that. Not only is it nearly impossible to communicate how to be, the best I could learn from them is how they are THEMselves, which is not me.

    The only way to learn about yourself and how you want to be is to look at the thoughts of other people, test them out, and decide if they fit. No one should take someone else's way of being and make it their own.

    Consequently, there is no easy answer for how a person can best be themselves. The only kind of answers there are, are those we win from reflection, argument, and philosophy.

    So keep talking - Sometimes you have to say something several times before other people hear it.
  22. Inta'twalamayah Registered Senior Member

    ... lol

    there you go again.... do your realize you just said what I said above about being shaped by the outside, starting from after the first line to a couple paragraphs?
    Ending at - "But do this too long and you start to think that's how things are; you don't need to pretend any more because you're so good at it that's what you have become."

    This is too funny.

    "If a being is fundamentally formless, why cast and characterize its actions by calling it a warrior?" Becuz to be formless he has to be a warrior.... sigh... I know you dont understand that either, I already know, cuz I spoke and said it in EVERY POST IN HERE!

    lol do you not see what I mean by "warrior" why do you keep bringing warrior in the material sense? Your the one putting a character to it. Its like your creating to different personalites when you think of a person being himself and a person being a warrior when they should both be 1, and nothing.
    Its like your sense of "warrior" is like thinking of what you call a Lion for example you call a Lion becuz how it acts and looks so it cant be nothing else but a lion, and to name it something else would be ludacris for you.
    I think the term warrior is inadequate for you... remember its not a PERSONA!
    "The point I'm trying to make is that even the warrior form (the helpful one)"
    -......Wat would you call a Warrior in your sense?

    Maybe I should use the word GHOST INSTEAD!

    "What I'm saying is that you should be very careful of something that feels right or comes easily"
    -obviously to be a spiritual warrior is something that doesnt come easy and especially doesnt feel right for you. So why are yooou being so careful... LOL!!!!!

    "It's important to be what you are when you're not casting yourself into a shape, because otherwise you can forget. "
    .... sigh.... the personal side again, the subjective.... so what are you in Essence when your not casting yourself? What are you in Essence when you are casting yourself? When you find this answer out, how can you ever forget? You wont! - but you'll want to get away from it even if you know it or not-(maybe subconsciously thats why you cant grasp what I'm handing to you?)-... and thats one reason I use the term to be a warrior, for that reason to stay Aware of what you Truly are. BUT WHAT ARE YOU? -human? man? alive? rich? poor? mean? nice? etc etc... if you think in that view and think along that line... ask WHY Do you think thats you?... do you think your unique? different? every emotion and probably every thought someone else has already thought of, every aspect of your life, someones in this Whole World probably can relate to.......and I hope you find something worthy out of asking yourself those questions. When you do you will get a glimpse of what it is to be Formless. But you have to be Empty.

    Yet to feel unique, to feel different, creates seperateness, and in so creates struggle, and to many can make life miserable, but to the Warrior-the way I mean it- it expands his perception, yet it doesnt make him. For the average person thru AAALLL the struggles and seperateness, and miserability he may go thru, and rise above it all and see someone that was in his shoe, theres no true compassion for that person or the next person, or for the trees, the birds, the animals, the enviroment, to each and every person.
    To have compassion for normal man is to have sadness due to pity for the next... and that is sad.

    Like a Rich Man may see a poor person on the street, he has pity for him, he feels sad for him. Becuz the poor man isnt HIM. So your comparing him to standards... your views, or of everyone elses... you are the one SHAPING HIM, with your own eyes. Yet this poor person can at the same time be the HAPPIEST person in the world cuz he has no true worries but the basics... he has nothing to lose. And at the same time he may love you and everyone else, and everything around him becuz he HAS NOTHING, but we pity him cuz he has nothing.

    True compassion Comes when you realize nothing will last... so in the end you have nothing, not only that, but everything you see and know will one day be nothing. So your Sad and full of Joy at the same time... not sad becuz of the person or object, or things Status(so in that way there is no pity), but becuz it wont last, so you cherish and love everyone and everything, create Joy, to make the best of its time and your time.... for in the end we have NOTHING.
    And to think of death, to drop the self, to be Empty, it can help you understand that.

    Average man may have compassion for the poor man, when viewed materially, subjectively, but no love for him...(as how the Rich man viewed him).... and thats the sad part.

    "The only way to learn about yourself and how you want to be is to look at the thoughts of other people, test them out, and decide if they fit.

    ...sigh... have you not read your own advice.... the nasty joke about the kids? And mine, about personal self, the outside in.... its like what I gave with the man with compassion for the poor man.
    Are you finding yourself by how others view you, off others thoughts?

    "No one should take someone else's way of being and make it their own"
    --No but most would rather be with there own, so what makes them so different? I touched this view in this post earlier.

    Oh I forgot to mention, about what you said....

    "I don't believe that your spirit is divided from your mind in such a way that it can save you from your own crooked thoughts, if crooked they be."

    So you think a person is stuck the way he is thruought his life? How do you explain people that do something bad and go to jail and come back totally different, not that they only seem different becuz they know if they do bad they'll go back... but a whole new person? Why do you think that is?
    And second... I know your already having a ruff time... and this will make it even more harder... the mind is what an Illusion... and you can find this when you are able to silence it... its nothing but a tool, u use it when needed and silence it when your done. Read the very first post....

    The reason mind is an illusion is that it is simply a conglomeration of neurons composed of(I guess you could call em) subatomic particles. What activates these particles is what you could call Spirit. I prefer infinity, for it is proven that nothing can be broken down to a concrete substance that isn't composed of something else ( quarks and beyond). So when we talk about our minds we are really talking about infinity, which has arranged itself into a set pattern.
    When we talk about the suffering animals and plants we are truly talking about infinity which is arranged into a certain pattern. The tip of the iceberg of this pattern, which can be perceived by the naked eye we call the Tonal. And the Tonal is everything within the limits of Form.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2003
  23. Inta'twalamayah Registered Senior Member

    Let me post something from a forum, where I'm learning from that can add to what we've discussed. And yet I know your mind will only boggle....

    You must lose your human form. The human form is
    a force and the human mold is ... well ... a mold.
    Everything has a particular mold. Plants have molds, animals have molds, worms have molds. Sorcerers have the
    avenue of their dreaming to lead them to the mold. The mold of men is definitely an entity, an entity which can be seen by
    some of us at certain times when we are imbued with power, and by all of us for sure at the moment of our death. The
    mold is the source, the origin of man, since, without the mold to group together the force of life, there is no way for that
    force to assemble itself into the shape of man.
    The human form is a sticky force that makes us the people we are. The human form has no form. It's anything, but in
    spite of not having form, it possesses us during our lives and doesn't leave us until we die.
    A warrior must drop the human form in order to change, to really change. Otherwise there is only talk about change.
    One cannot change as long as one holds on to the human form. A warrior knows that he cannot change, and yet
    he makes it his business to try to change, even though he knows that he won't be able to. That's the only advantage a
    warrior has over the average man. The warrior is never disappointed when he fails to change.
    The only thing that makes you think you are yourself is the form. Once it leaves, you are nothing. A warrior without
    form begins to see an eye. The formless warrior uses that eye to start dreaming . If you don't have a form, you don't have
    to go to sleep to do dreaming . The eye in front of you pulls you every time you want to go.
    Everything has to be sifted through our human form. When we have no form, then nothing has form and yet
    everything is present.

    This can help you answer a question I asked up above. And I hope it helps you find it, not only find it but realize it.

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