Reality is mathematics / Mathematics is reality ?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Write4U, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    It didn't at first.
    We had to invent new maths to models things we saw.

    Cartesian geometry suited quite well until we started having trouble with Mercury's precession.

    A more recent example: there was no such thing as Chaos Theory before the 80s or so - until we found things in nature we wanted to model.
     
    Write4U and Quantum Quack like this.
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Of course, according to chaos theory, physical patterns started forming just after the beginning. Patterns are mathematical constructs.
    Sorry, I edited my post too late'.
    I agree, even Newton was not quite correct, but when humans make mathematical errors, the results will never be satisfactory with additional knowledge. This is why I added this to my original post;
    Universe lets us know what is allowed and what not. Do the maths correctly and it is allowed.
    We have a found a key to the lock in the door to the expressed reality of our universe......

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    One question, will the universe cease to exist when there are no humans? Will it function different from how it functions now?
    IMO , you are confusing the abstract logic of "formal systems" with human observation and applied sciences. Natural Laws (constants) are measurable formal systems, and therefore mathematical in essence.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_system
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Natural = made in nature by orderly natural processing of natural "values and functions"
    Artificial = made in china by human orderly processing of natural "values and functions"
     
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    what do you mean by function?
    Function implies a purpose and a goal. Are you saying the universe has a purpose and a goal?
    Measurable by who?
    What do you mean by essence?
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It doesn't need a goal, only a dynamic imperative. The universal law of "necessity and sufficiency"
    Anything with the ability to process and transmit information.
    That's the crux of the matter. And the hardest to explain.

    If you read all the applied definitions of these two categorical definitions, you will find a "common denominator" in all those definitions.

    The "common denominator" being the intrinsic (enfolded) potential qualities (values and functions) of both abstract or physical patterns which may become expressed (unfolded) in reality. Mathematics is the "logical calculus" in "formal systems".

    This does not mean numbers or letters, just the values symbolized by letters and numbers.

    Hydrogen atoms do not have their atomic number stamped on the side. But relative to other atoms the hydrogen atom has a well defined atomic value (weight) and we know of many functions the element hydrogen is capable of.
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/essence

    and
    Google

    Consider this: Does the universe know about time ? Why do we say spacetime? Time is an abstract emergent mathematical (chronological) order. It's a necessary aspect of chronology and imperative to the evolution of the universe. The Universe knows nothing of time, it does need to.

    But if our mathematics allow us to look back billions of years and distances, you cannot say that the universe is not mathematical in essence if it meets "necessity and sufficiency".
    These functional demands require an orderly information sharing system, for the universe as well as for all physical objects. Difference is that humans can symbolize the mathematics, whereas the universe can only follow (allow) the pertinent mathematical functions.

    But even a chameleon uses "triangulation". And that is a mathematical function. The chameleon doesn't know that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
  10. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    According to you: Does the universe process and transmit information?
     
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Write4U
    I can only conclude that you have no answer that would prevent you from realizing the flaw in the notion that reality is mathematics. It is pretty obvious what I am about to put forward to negate the absurdity of such a notion.

    The question is are you prepared to put forward the solution to the riddle you seem to be caught up in or do you wish others to do the work for you?

    Can the universe perform any mathematical functions?
    Solve any mathematical problems?
    Calculate or otherwise process even the most rudimentary of equations?
    Can the universe provide a solution to 1+1=?
    Can the universe process a solution to Mc^2 =?

    No of course not!
    Reality is not mathematics. Mathematics is a human invention only.

    Now the really big question:
    Are you prepared to accept the obvious?
     
  12. zgmc Registered Senior Member

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    Qq, I dont see how you can state that with any degree of certainty. We certainly haven't came to the end of the road with mathematics. There is more to discover, or invent. Lets say that it is a human invention. We have invented it as a tool to describe the functions of the universe as we see it. Why mathematics? Are there alternatives to mathematics? Can mathematics be used to describe all of the universe? Or is there a greater truth?
     
  13. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Just to explain:
    In a deeper philosophical sense it could be argued that we as humans are just a self determining mirror or reflector of what we observe.

    When considering dualism, as distinct from non-dualism, it is important to maintain a perspective of being the source of the reflection and not the reflection itself. In other words when looking at yourself in a mirror to clearly understand and appreciate which side of the reflective system you actually exist as. Are you the source of your reflection in the mirror or are you actually in the mirror looking back at you or are you both the reflection and the source.
    If you wish to stay sane in a 4 dimensional universe it is important to be grounded in a dualistic system or get lost between two mirrors so to speak.
    Then one day after much personal growth you may realize (as some Buddhist sages have discovered) that it is only the "Ego" that creates this 4 dimensions and the truth about this universe is surprisingly non-dualistic and more a monism and you may conclude from self discovery that the only thing that separates you from being in a state of unity with everything else is a sense of identity or "Ego".

    The situation here in this thread, is about the belief that reality is mathematics and that mathematics is reality. IMO, it is really important if wishing to address this issue, that the dualism involved be reinforced so that a reasonable and coherent discussion can take place with out switching from dualism to monism (non-duality) in a single sentence thus getting lost between two very different perspectives.

    From a dualistic perspective, the one that mainstream science and philosophy often takes, Mathematics is a Human creation, that has evolved from drawing lines in the sand with a stick to quantum computing. It is about processing information, data that is observed and about manipulating the data to serve some predetermined ambition. This is the common mainstream perspective of the term mathematics. To suggest that reality, as in all of reality, is mathematics is essentially an ego eccentric projection and personification of what is being observed. ( almost theological and promoting a religious perspective)

    There is no doubt that reality has an order to it. Mathematics was invented to explore, understand and gain utility from that order. ( as with all the human sciences I guess) but to grant that "order" with human invented mathematical processes breaches the dualism required to stay sane, due to the inherent confusion and dysfunction such a belief may lead to.

    When changing to a monism (non-duality) perspective, one must always keep in mind which side of the looking glass one stands other wise the reality can and often is lost to the observer. However, if successful in maintaining a complex perspective ( over view), what appears to be a greater truth about reality, becomes evident.

    Philosophical discussion can go on endlessly if the contextual perspectives are not maintained.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
    river likes this.
  14. river

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    We are on the same page are we not QQ ?

    Mathematics could not exist without matter objects existing
     
  15. river

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    Put anotherway , how does mathematics , the idea of numbers , which are all based on shape(s), form devoid of physical objects ?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    It's a bit like a composer writing a manuscript for musical instruments that do not exist. The manuscript notation is not dependent on the existence of the instruments supposed to be used to play it. The manuscript may not ever be played. The manuscript is merely a published rendition of a persons imagination.
     
  17. river

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    Mathematics has always been based on object(s) shapes
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I guess you have to count something .....
     
  19. river

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    Every physical form has an inherent mathematical property to it .

    I have no problem with this .

    But to think that mathematics forms the physical object and manifests the physical object , in the first place , that I will disagree with anyone .
     
  20. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I have listed a number of mathematical constructs that have no basis in reality. You have ignored them.
    No matter how times you repeat the above, it doesn't get less wrong.
     
  21. river

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    What would be the point in acknowledgeing them ?

    It gets more right
     
  22. river

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    Mathematics is based on physical things/objects , existence .
     
  23. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    What do you mean by mathematical property?
     

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