Real story behind Columbine

Troubled waters run ripples and isnt flat. You know most people who are depressed can't even get out of bed never mind plan anything (this includes their own deaths) which is why many people actually make suicide attempts when they are on anti-dep meds. I describe them as being dead inside based on their complete lack of empathy for others including themselves. Now if you want to waste your time worrying about those two lost kids go ahead, knock yourself out but i won't be one to do that. I would rather deal with the salvagable than what is already lost. I never said they deserved to die but they obviously felt they did and in retrospect it probably was for the best because they were not going to walk away from the murder of over 12 people.

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I brought up those who suffer from real deprivation because I have had the opportunity to see it and those people are not running around behaving in ways that are destructive towards others, they are abused and suffering and hurt and vulnerable they arent riding around in the BMW mommy and daddy purchased complaining about bullying and their poor sweet overpampered asses. I have no sympathy for them, I have some for their families and those of the victims but not for those two who wasted themselves and others. SORRY!

 

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I think that the debate on 'What would you have done with them'? is fruitless, unless we would really be the people in power to do something with them (ie. the actual judges handling the case in court). It sure makes for an interesting debate and for some strenuous ego-wrestling, but I don't think it really changes anything about people who shoot other people.

IOW, there is a fundamental futility to trying to virtually or imaginarily solve a real problem.

But since you ask, I think such killers as the Columbine killers belong to prison, for the sake of attempting to maintain the social status quo and to protect the rest of the population.

Our society in general does not have the means to reform such persons, it doesn't even have the means to satisfactorily explain how such behavior comes to be and how it could be prevented. For all practical purposes, we behave as if some people would be 'inherently evil', 'inherently worthless'.
I think this is another factor why some people, who are in a difficult situation in life, then actually become 'psychotic little shits'.


Other than that, I think 'responsibility' is a very vague concept. Even if someone is convicted and executed, this still is no guarantee that he felt the least bit of remorse for his crime or took any responsiblity for it. And there is also no guarantee that after that execution, society in general, the relatives and friends of the person whom he killed or injured would feel any relief or that justice has been done. And there is also no guarantee that executing such a person, no more like him will appear.
Effectively taking responsibility would mean that the chain of crime would stop. But it doesn't.

 

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I don't know you or your parents. Perhaps they weren't parented very well themselves and weren't able to rise above that. I don't know.

I think thewhole point I'm making is that children are affected by the behaviour of their parents and other influential adults. Indifference can be just as damaging as abuse in my opinion. I don't know if the facts back that up, however. Equally damaging are the type of parents who 'spoil' their children and by that I mean saying 'yes' when they should be saying 'no' and vice versa. Parenting isn't easy! Balance is something to aim for as is continuity.

Single parents aren't bad parents because they are single. Bad parenting is bad parenting regardless of the numbers involved. Were the columbine kids products of single parents?

There's a difference between you're special to me and you're the most special thing that ever lived and so should always get your way and feel free to kill anyone who doesn't agree with your sense of entitlement and/or world view and there will never be any consequences.

Then again simply telling a child it is a psychotic little shit if it has certain thoughts or behaviours (and then doing nothing to follow that up) might not be too healthy either. Or not noticing one's child's erratic, depressive behaviour.....

Are you sure about this? In the UK kids certainly can get hold of guns and they do kill people but none of them have managed to spray several dozens of school mates with semi-automatic gunfire as far as I'm aware. Gang mentality and violence is certainly an issue and i think it relates to some of the stuff we're discussing here.

Letting them know what might work and what might not in certain situations. How to manage anger and where feelings of overblown superiority or overwhelming inferiority might lead...and that strong feelings are not wrong but can be managed and can pass. And yes being in BIG trouble when they err.

I'm with you on that but I was simply pointing out some issues that I had with some of the posts. I don't advocate sticking a label on something just because it's too difficult to think about or just to shove it under the carpet.

 

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Externally observable hardship is hardly the only factor in that moves a person to act in a violent way.

I think that the way society in general and the person himself explain to themselves how that hardship came to be plays an important part.

You said you observed hardship in the Far East. People there are likely to believe in karma and reincarnation. Such a belief is likely to diffuse much of the anger a person might have against his oppresors.

In the West, we have no generally accepted equivalent to belief in karma in reincarnation. Generally, we are left to ourselves to explain why people act the way they do. This can lead to a lot of confusion.

 

Oh no no no Sinal, No one called them evil at least not in this thread and I almost never use that term. You behave as if it is someone else who decided they were 'inherently worthless' no one said that but they obviously felt that way because they blew their own brains out, no one did that to them and I have no reason to believe and neither do you that they were in a 'difficult situation in life'.

No what I mean by responsibility is that the onus is on them. There is no one else to carry the weight, their both gone so they can't take responsibility, if they would have lived they would have been in jail and lost their freedom which would have been responsible for.

 

True. My mom wasn't a bad parent because she was a single mom, she was a bad parent because she was a bad parent.
I've had ADHD my whole life, but didn't find out about it until I was 33, only after a few months of struggling with not being able to focus or pay attention to anything at work, and had to go see the doc about it. Mom was too busy with her dating/sex life to take me to the doc to see if there was any meds/therapy available for me at the time. So once I found that out, and realized she took no action when I was younger, it kinda built up some resentment.
She and I are just now getting back on proper mother/son terms.
However, I'm still unsure if we will ever be as close as we should.

 

These hardships are not simply external. Are you implying that if a child is sold into prostitution the only suffering is a bruised vagina? Or that its pleasent to grow up in a garbage dump picking through refuse everyday? And that these are not significant compared to the 'existential angsting' western teenager?

I would agree that the framework of buddhism does leave its followers with a different disposition but you know Cambodia has a lot of guns...a lot...and yet gun violence isn't being carried out by the disenfranchised but by those with means. Anyway I see what your saying and I can agree with many of your insights.

 

Think something might be wrong here, huh?

So have I. Deprivation and povery cause problems. In rich societies there are problems too. The two require different solutions because they ARE DIFFERENT PROBLEMS. And in my book two kids who have so little respect for themselves and others that they feel the need to go on a shooting spree is a PROBLEM that requires looking at a little deeper than branding them 'psychotic little shits'. SORRY!

Herein lies your real problem with this. These kid's parents had BMWs. Rich kids shouldn't have any problems because well look how rich their parents are!!

NEWSFLASH: Parenting is not just about smothering your kids with expensive gifts shoving them into their bedrooms with another load of expensive stuff and then absolving yourself of all responsibility for them and their welfare!

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Well thanks for sharing. I have no sympathy for parents who sell their daughters into prostitution and for those who recruit children as soldiers either but their poverty excuses it, right?

 

If, as you feel, your mother was such a bad parent to you perhaps a close relationship now would not be good for you. However if you do manage to find out a little more about her own childhood and youth it may help to build some empathy for her or it may just confirm to you that she was indeed simply a selfish individual who should not have had a child that she patently couldn't parent.

ADHD has only very recently been 'recognised' even by GPs and it isn't accepted by all......

Do you think perhaps that your mother could have had the same thing? I think i read there could be a genetic factor....

 

mike, when we were young they didnt know about ADHD. to be honest i am not so sure about these things and some people are just a little different, which is fine with me.

your mom fed you, made sure you went to school...what more casn you ask for?

you have to remember that parents are human.

 

Even if they were "bullied" (and who hasn't been bullied? Big fuckin' deal), their crime far outweighs anything the bullies did. They were evil little sociopaths and all the blame for their crimes belongs to them and no one else.

 

In addition to her admitting a few months ago that she could have been a better parent, I knew she was a bad parent when I was teenager.

It was stated in another thread to somethign like, 'you are a bad parent if you neglect your children for a vice'
Her vice seemed to be to see how many of her shop mates she could bring over to the house and fuck.

My aunt Karen was perceptive enough to realize that I was just a bit more hyper than all the other children. A perception that I felt was enough to warrant a doctor's visit.

Think? Sniffy dear, I would bet my next paycheck she has it too. Parents who have ADHD have children that have a 25% chance of inheriting it from their parents. I didn't get anything good from my mom (color blindness, baldness, ADHD).

Oh well. Maybe she'll realize she shouldn't have been a bad parent when she finds herself on her own come nursing home time. You don't want to take care of me when I was younger, allow me to return the favor when you get ready to die.

 

A non-slutty, non-promiscuous parent.

Doesn't mean they should be absolved from paying for their mistakes.

Maybe all of you guys will give your relatives a free pass just because they're relatives. I won't. You fuck up, you pay for it.

If I killed someone and I told the cops 'I'm only human. I make mistakes.', do you think the cops would give me a free pass and not arrest me?

 

Every parent on earth could have been a better parent. What you hope for is to be a good enough one.....

Is it the fucking that you have an issue with? Or did she leave you in the middle of the floor in the same room in wet pants and unfed whilst she was doing it?

And where was your other parent, again?

Kids who drink cola can be hyper but a good call on your aunt's part. Was she slutty too or just perceptive?

Well mike maybe you too should think, dear. Maybe you are blaming your mother for more than she is actually responsible for. It's not her fault that she had ADHD and maybe it was responsible for some of her behaviours. Who was perceptive enough for your mother to recognise her ADHD if she had it? Where, for instance were her parents and sisters, did you say...?

Let the wrongs just keep on piling up, eh? But yes as I said sometimes to keep healthy you've got to distance yourself.

 

I can hope

Uhhh. No. I was well into grade school when this happened.
And she might as well, she was loud enough even with the door closed.

They were divorced when I was three, and while I still talked to him on occasion, he was out of the picture. He was more or less a dead beat. Nice guy but lazy and didn't want to do anything other than sit in his chair, watch TV, and drink his beer or lickruh.

No. She was perceptive, and probably one of the most common sensed, reasonable women I've ever met. She's one of the aunts I stayed with. I'd consider her my mom just as much as my mom.

Sniffy,
you have to understand that I'm not forgiving in areas like this. Why? Because if you're too forgiving, that more or less enables people to have no accountability.
Also, I've made QUITE A FEW mistakes and bad decisions in my life. I do not expect anyone to give me any quarter or forgive me for them. I fucked up. I have to live with it.
Let's say you're a parent in a car and your child is with you. Let's say you get in a little hurry, run a stop sign and get nailed by a car. Your child dies.
You just made a huge mistake that cost your child its life. You can't take that back no matter what you do. You have to live with it.

Hey, I've never denied, even once that I'm begrudging and vindictive. Don't want me to be that way? Don't treat me badly or with disrespect then.


Now, that said, mom and I aren't on bad terms per se. Far from it. She, her husband(who is a carpenter) and my aforementioned aunt came down a few weeks ago and helped me lay my hardwood flooring down.
I still love her, but I don't see us ever being that close again.

 

But, if you had access to a gun and had snapped, would you have tried to simply kill anyone and everyone you came across, including random students you didn't even know? Or would you have specifically targeted the people who were harassing you? The main point of the article is that they didn't seem to be trying to take revenge on any specific people or group of people, they were just killing whoever they could. I could see someone being harassed until they snapped and then trying to take revenge, but simply killing random people makes it sound like they weren't motivated by revenge.

 

Well thanks for sharing. I have no sympathy for parents who sell their daughters into prostitution and for those who recruit children as soldiers either but their poverty excuses it, right?[/QUOTE]

I NEVER said that poverty is an excuse though apparently its a motivation. I am saying that I wouldn't waste my sympathy on those two and finger their actions on their 'diffcult life' which is why I mentioned children who live under true hardship who don't seem to act out in destructive ways like killing a dozen people. Please stop pretending you don't understand my point.

If you want to look deeper by all means do. If you think you can come up with something Culled didnt in ten years then go and follow the story or rather go look for their sad sack stories so you can justify your misguided sympathies

And no I am not saying that they were psychotic little shits because they were born into comfortable circumstance,I'm saying that its ridiculous to over emphasis a suffering when there is no indication of such and why is it that children of deep deprivation are not killing randomly when they live in a society of easy access to weapons because of its past wars. I'm saying they were psychotic little shits based on their psychotic shitty behaviour. You seem to think that are hearts should bleed for them and not for their families, society at large or the victims and I disagree. You seem to think that there are iron clad ways of somehow 'catching' these kind of people and as of yet there are not. Maybe one day we'll be able to do natal brain scans and simply abort the fuckers before they exit

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Here, here Fraggle! I think it scares people to think that two young men could behave this way without motivation. Its too disturbing and leaves a feeling of no control so they look for cause and excuses

 

Damn mikey, that's some serious Freudian shit. It explains everything.

Hahaha, wow.