"Real" knowledge and "artificial" knowledge - I have a dilemma here

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by yesemina, Apr 10, 2003.

  1. yesemina Registered Senior Member

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    Alright, now I have a small problem here which will resolve itself over time but I want to see what you guys think anyhow.

    After depending so much on my intellect to give me all the answers, to manipulate my own reality, creating my own idea of myself (very egocentric) and acting upon it, it finally got torn down by realizing that I wasn't what my idea of myself was - I really was just me acting upon my own idea of myself. I saw it at a more "objective" point of view so to speak, and a lot of my problems were solved in seeing that most of it lies in the ideas formed about reality in my mind.

    Now, Buddhism says that we must not cling to these ideas that come into our minds, because if we do, we are living in just another perception - it's just an idea, and if we cling to it we can be said to be delusional, because we are acting upon our own minds - an interpretation of reality. This makes sense to me, not just because I read it out of a book and thought about it, but because life experiences have lead me to this conclusion as well (as goes with what most of Buddhism teaches). However.. I am also in school, and I have slightly lost interest (just slightly) in what they are teaching since it is knowledge, but not knowledge that I actually need to mold my perception - because I don't want to mold my perception but instead keep my mind empty of delusion. Well I'm not sure exactly where to place what I'm learning in school. Because isn't everything in school they are teaching just concepts that themselves could be faulty? It seems like what I would be learning in school would be giving me extra tools in order to define reality, but I don't feel that I really need that. Maybe the trick is just taking it for what it is and not creating an idea about it in my head, not clinging to what I am learning and molding my perception by it, but then what's the point of learning it? I don't know, I don't really see the good anymore in trying to figure something out or grasp reality by constant reasoning because no matter what I come up with, it could possibly be wrong - there is no real knowing what is right and wrong since whatever ideas I form is just another perception, although it can become exciting to discover new ideas. I do see that it would be good to be aware of certain theories and etc... but I don't want to get stuck in the rut of clinging to some idea and figuring out later I was a complete fool and that my former idea of something was really just an idea, not reality. I just don't know how to put it all into place I guess.

    Blah, maybe I'm really not even exactly sure what I'm confused about, haha. But I know there is something missing (I'm ignorant of something) that needs to be cleared up in order to make the proper connection here. Any comments would be great.

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    Liz
     
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  3. stray dog Registered Senior Member

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    education is important; take it all in and learn from what it has to offer


    you will form your own opinions as you progress;
    build on the knowledge that is presented to you,
    later you will discard that which you do not need or that
    which you have found to be incorrect;

    as it has been said; never loose your couriosity to learn.
    you will retain that which you find relevant
     
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  5. yesemina Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, I was thinking about this at the gym a few minutes ago in fact, and I remember reading about in a book that you may feel as though getting rid of concepts in your mind makes you feel as though you're plunging in somewhere where there is nothing to hold onto, but said that that was "the very realm of Dharma". I think that an additional possibility is that I am so used to trying to grasp at reality and define things by concepts that the shock of realizing how much I really do not know makes me feel as though I have nothing to cling onto. I don't think I would actually let go of the certain "truths" that I have so far discovered for myself, but I sure was full of delusional concepts I did not need.

    I will find a balance eventually.

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  7. spookz Banned Banned

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    yese
    i might be off the mark but do not accord buddhism any special status. it is a system of knowledge just like any other. adopt a practical attitude towards life and a lot of confusion and fear will vanishes. other than that, stray dog summed it up nicely.

    now repeat after me.... "i know nothing".
    do that before meals. wash it down with water
    cheers
     
  8. yesemina Registered Senior Member

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    144
    Spookz, don't worry, I'm not going to let myself look at it as a special status. I think I'm pushing hard enough on the humility aspect of it...hehe. I am following this system of knowledge, with the realization that almost every thought in my head has been...well, delusional I'll call it, just because they are thoughts that emphasize ego, which I no longer want. Most of all of my fear had vanished once I saw that I...well.. wasn't what I thought I was.

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    It's the very fact of realizing how much I don't know that has left me...bewildered I guess.

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    I'm not posting this because I feel like I'm important now that I am following Buddhism and that it should be regarded as a special status... I would be far away from reality yet again if I were...

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    And my very practice is to stay away from that... but anyhow, yesterday I just felt.. I don't know. Confused for a second. Probably just because the way I am thinking now is much different than I was say a couple weeks ago.

    Thanks

    Liz
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2003
  9. spookz Banned Banned

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    6,390
    just because they are thoughts that emphasize ego, which I no longer want.

    delusional only if you want to look at the bigger picture. ego driven thoughts are necessary if you plan on participating in our wonderful little paradise/rat race. the problem is when one imagines that it is all there is. in your case, you question why and how thoughts occur. as far as i am concerned, that recognition alone is good enough even if you do not renounce the thoughts altogether (half the battle won). if this emptiness persist in the later stages of life, perhaps then you would wanna address this on a full time basis via mediatation and whatnot.

    * how wonderfully conservative i have become when dealing with kids! perhaps i should revert back to my natural state and advice you to head to the ashram immediately leaving behind all your worldly possessions. i mean, why bullshit around? why not fight the real battle? right now! right here! anything less is bogus!

    *wonder whats up with "fight"...."battle"... (interesting choice of words)
     
  10. yesemina Registered Senior Member

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    144
    Hahaha..

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    Really I just don't know. I have knowledge of one thing, and that is:
    Yes, I do, I meditate with the Buddhist center here and at home. And yes - I want to look at the big picture.


    Who knows, maybe me stating here things I have experienced implies to you just the opposite from the fact that I am stating it in the first place, and therefore I must still be egocentric; okay fair enough. It's going to take me a long time to fully get rid of my ego and not make people say, "damn these kids! thinking they know everything" the more that I open my mouth. It's just that I don't know what I know and don't know anymore... that's all I was trying to say, and that is what has brought about confusion. It was the feeling of being lost from not having anything to cling to...so that is why I was debating in my head what kinds of things to cling to and what not (i.e. my own mind's
    "delusions" vs. things I learn in school) and thought I would see what people who are most likely more intelligent than I thought. I just need to get better at making my own distinctions.

    I WANT to be completely empty, but still know things. I want to learn, but I don't want to live my life through the ideas that come into my head, or the things that I learn. I want to know, but be empty at the same time. Is it possible ?!?!?!?!?!! ;D That is all I want. No, I don't want you to tell me that I have reached a special state of being and that I should immediately go off and live a monastic life, although I would have no problem with living that way. Please, don't get me wrong, I'm only looking for advice here from people who have gone the same direction. Humility is fine, too; sure, maybe i can't get enough of that.. but the very fact of not clinging onto anything is where the confusion came from. ;P

    Liz
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2003
  11. spookz Banned Banned

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    stop! you have been editing your post way too long! anymore edits and i will bend you over my lap and give you taste of nirvana through the palm of my hand!

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  12. yesemina Registered Senior Member

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    Haaha NO it has to be perfect

    I do this with all my emails too incidentally =/

    liz
     
  13. ben nevis Registered Senior Member

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    Wife at her in laws for a week + bottle of whisky = nirvana.
     
  14. yesemina Registered Senior Member

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    *Sigh* Nevermind, spookz, you're right. I'm STILL looking in the direction of self-image.
     
  15. moonman Registered Senior Member

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    I have a similar dillemma(or rather had) as yours yesemina, I have somewhat lost my interest in education, ok, so I never had an interest but if I cared I would find that my current interest is alarmingly low.

    I'm lazy? maybe, I know even the Buddhists frown upon lazyness.
    I realize that in someone elses perception I am condemning my future by denying myself an education.
    I don't see it that way, as I don't desire success or other such epheral pleasures. And on the idea of contributing back to society, the best I or anyone else can do for society is to teach people to be free especialy from social norms and ideals such as money, success and indeed any ambitions.
    If there is something that I feel I want to learn, I can discipline myself and bend my mind to learning the task or knowledge.

    So I wouldn't go to say that ''education is good, duh!'' Rather it's important if you give it importance, if you need it along your path and your path is truely the path that you feel is righ for you, ofcourse you will drive yourself to learn what is requiered of you. But I won't say that it is good in any other sense than 'sex is good', excercise is good, or meditaion is good.
     
  16. yesemina Registered Senior Member

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    Hehe, precisely

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    Yeah, I just had a problem discriminating between my own potentially wrong perceptions and just plain knowledge... was confused for a while in the beginning... all is good now...

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    thanks,
    Liz
     
  17. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

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    I'd say posting on a message board about your loss of ego will only make the ego stronger. Cause you are trying to form it into something that 'has nog ego'. That's a pig that's not a pig for you...

    But I think the sollution that buddhism offers is not a good one. It promises salvation. And there is no salvation

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    As Mallory said it: NO! There is no escape in here!!

    You have this ego, you have this body, and you have the mental power to see how relative it all is? That's pretty good. Now go bake pancakes and enjoy. Feed some starving children. You'll do fine.

    You'll never hit rock bottom final reality. So just create and live. Like creating pancakes. Or a cure for cancer.

    Have fun.
     
  18. yesemina Registered Senior Member

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    True, and I did that before, however I wasn't posting on a message board this time for the purpose of telling everyone i lost my ego, i was just saying that to acknowledge that spookz was right when he told me so. ;D I do know I have some ego layers left, of course. That's a fact.

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    That's fine that you believe so, but I disagree. Recently, I found my escape. I found my "home". However, it all depends on the person I suppose... whatever it is I found was probably not reality itself but it was a reality different from what I've been living in, and quite comforting.

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    So, I'll just reside in this realm and...well... make pancakes! haha
     
  19. moonman Registered Senior Member

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    A4Ever incase you were refering to me.
    Yes, I am far from losing my ego,

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    I didn't say that I had lost it either and I definately realize that I most likely never will.
    When I say that I don't desire things such as success I would like to think that I am being honest, perhaps I am or maybe I am not. But the act of creating a certain immage of myself wich is somehow recognized as Idealistic in our idiosyncratic rational mindframes with deliberation I am succumbing to the lures of my ego.

    I would disagree that Buddhism's ways are a 'promise of salvation' from anything at all in our terrestrial lives, it's just a way of life, a way towards a certain spiritual wisdom, a choice or a path if you will. As don Juan said in Carlos Castanedas reports of his teachings 'there are many paths, and they all lead nowhere'.
    You are right that there is no salvation in this world, we all die, the Buddha died, Jesus died, the salvation you are refering to in the teachings is a spiritual one, you may not agree with the existence of spirituality but that is a choice you have made, to not believe (or to not know

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    ). I suppose In some sense there is a solution though, the solution of accheiving non-differentiation from innitial differentiation, the means of realizing Oneness, but again this is the spiritual path be it correlative (in the beleif of the religion) with the reality that we experience it is just a choice. Such as anything is a choice and no choice is better or worse than the next, we will fall to our mortality no matter what choices we make.
     
  20. yesemina Registered Senior Member

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  21. PeacefulWarrior Registered Member

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    It seems that you're still clinging to "not clinging" (ie you are desiring not to desire). Anyway, what kind of pancackes are you making.

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  22. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Just remember this:

    All knowledge is tentative. (regardless of what anyone tells you)

    Make it your montra.
     
  23. yesemina Registered Senior Member

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    Hehe, I know

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    Have you ever read "The way of the peaceful warrior" by dan millman? Your name reminded me of that book, I've read it four times over.

    Anyway, what kind of pancakes am I making... I have no answer for that.

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    and..

    I'll remember that.

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    Last edited: Apr 16, 2003

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