Rape and the "Civilized" World

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Mar 27, 2013.

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  1. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Awwww I liked that. Thanks Quinn.
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Defender of the Defended

    Not-All-Man: Defender of the Defended

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Not-All-Man: Detail of cartoon by Matt Lubchansky

    Sometimes I think of Homer Simpson: "I kicked a giant mouse in the butt! Do I have to draw you a diagram?" And then there are times when the diagram might have words in it, so, you know, it still doesn't work. Still, though, Matt Lubchansky's viral sensation Not-All-Man marks yet another attempt to make a simple point that sympathetic minds will at least get a wry smile out of, but the intended audience can be more reliably wagered to miss:

    It’s a sharp, damning satire of a familiar kind of bad-faith argument, the one where a male interlocutor redirects a discussion about sexism, misogyny, rape culture, or women’s rights to instead be about how none of that is his fault. And it struck a nerve.

    † † †​

    “Not all men” also differs from “what about the men?” and other classic derails because it acknowledges that rape, sexism, and misogyny are real issues — just not, you know, real issues that the speaker is involved with in any way. The “not all men” man, at least in some cases, agrees with you and is perfectly willing to talk about how terrible those other guys are, just as soon as we get done establishing that he himself would never be such a cad. It’s infuriating and unhelpful, but in a way it represents a weird kind of progress.

    Lubchansky agreed that the shift from “but what about men’s problems” to “not all men are like that” paralleled his own gradual development into a decent human. Perhaps men arguing on the Internet (though not all men!) follow a developmental path that echoes an individual man growing a social conscience, which in a very simplified form goes something like this:

    1. Sexism is a fake idea invented by feminists
    2. Sexism happens, but the effect of “reverse sexism” on men is as bad or worse
    3. Sexism happens, but the important part is that I personally am not sexist
    4. Sexism happens, and I benefit from that whether or not I personally am sexist
    5. Sexism happens, I benefit from it, I am unavoidably sexist sometimes because I was socialized that way, and if I want to be anti-sexist I have to be actively working against that socialization​

    Is it possible “not all men” rose to prominence when the level of online discourse moved from stage 2 to stage 3?

    The Not-All-Man hero and his minions are paralyzingly obsessed with protecting their own self-concept, to a degree that prevents them from engaging in sincere discussion. But this contrast — between “not all men” and earlier derailing tactics — suggests that maybe they also represent a small and subtle shift towards good-faith argumentation.


    It's a big maybe.

    Still, though, why not? This isn't quite plinking village idiots for sport, so ... right. We'll see how this goes.


    Zimmerman, Jess. "Not All Men: A Brief History of Every Dude's Favorite Argument". Time. April 28, 2014. Time.com. April 28, 2014. http://time.com/79357/not-all-men-a-brief-history-of-every-dudes-favorite-argument/

    See Also:

    Lubchansky, Matt. "Save Me". Please Listen to Me. April 10, 2014. Listen-ToMe.com. April 28, 2014. http://www.listen-tome.com/save-me/
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  5. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    When is a generalisation not a generalisation?
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    How "as a result"? This has never made sense to me. From reason alone, abstractly, one would think that having no experience raising children and presenting a lifetime of focus on something as narrow and shallow and limiting as most careers would disqualify men from being "in charge of everything", or being entrusted with important political and social functions in society at all.

    By reason, logic, and ordinary or obvious biological imperative, the US Congress (or at least the House, which deals more with domestic stuff like budgets than war etc) should be mostly grandmothers - that's how elephants and wolves and hyenas and whales and wild horses and other highly intelligent as well as social large mammals set things up. Even chimpanzee and other large primate societies are governed largely by long lived and experienced females. That would seem to be the presumptive or apparent biological role of the long postreproductive lifespan of human females - built in by evolution.

    Apparently some kind of sociologically based technology or circumstance of violence has interfered - recently? - with normal biological imperatives here.
  8. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

    I have held this very view(instinctive/ intuition) for a long time and believe there well may have been some kind of genocide initially, additionally I believe the introduction of the Abrahamic God (The Big Three) is responsible for redefining or outright denying the existence of matriarchal societies that existed previously. Sounds like a great thread Iceaura!
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    ¿A Reminder of What Is Important?

    When it is a customary obligation. See Tedeschi, quoted in topic post:

    When it comes to a woman's right to walk unharmed through a city street, our understanding takes a nose dive.

    'Of course we're not rapists!' we say to ourselves. We condemn the pack-animal mentality in India. 'My mother is a woman!' It's as predictable as a 90's Demtel commercial. But then, we'll go home and watch The Footy Show or maybe Jersey Shore, both of which reduce women to empty vessels at best and objects of sexual derision at worst. Some of us may go to the pub - even joined by A Woman, because we're evolved - and they like to joke along too! It's all part of the fun! Lighten up! (Nice pins, by the way).

    If, God forbid, a woman is attacked here in Australia, the inevitable questions about where and with whom she was before it happened convince me more than anything that we are embroiled in dangerous times. In 2012, our postcard playground is still smeared with this retrograde thinking. Jill Meagher, even in death, was maligned by the protectors of female chastity for daring to venture out by herself at night time.

    In short, we just don't get it.

    Yes, there are gradations of sexism. There's Al Qaeda on one side and a few loose smatterings of men on the other extreme. But, let's be honest, boys - most of us Nice Guys are in the middle and we're not budging. Because that would force us to question our own assumptions about our own masculinity and how it is impacted by the empowering of over one half of the global community.

    There is also an inchoate notion that generalizations offered in defense of rapists are also a good thing; the question of what to do in those moments is always morbid and wicked, and rarely delicious. See "Counterproposal: Don't dress like a slut" (Sciforums, 2008), especially the grenade bit at #119 in that thread. It was a little surprising to me to see the Not-All-Men and Devil's Advocates and philandronists keep generally silent in the face of such generalizations about men. But those generalizations help men get away with rape get righteously and properly laid, apparently, so that's okay ...

    #1878878/119: "again, rape is bad. but if you pull the pin out of a grenade, is it your fault or the grenade's when it blows up? when a man sees cleavage/legs/whatever, there's a lot of chemical reactions going on in his body. high heels arch the feet, simulating feet during orgasm. the stuff you're wearing is designed to expose and emphasise sexual features."

    ... or something.

    The obligations put upon women in the question of rape in society are such that functional generalizations about the dangers, complications, and other obstacles presented by men are necessary considerations. As Zimmerman noted (see #982):

    It’s true that previous derailment favorites like “patriarchy hurts men too” were paraphrases in a way that “not all men” is not. The demand is the same — “please move me to the center of your discussion” — but “not all men” is, in many cases, straight from the horse’s mouth; even an amateur Reddit spelunker can turn up plenty of sulky or defensive uses of the phrase.

    “Not all men” also differs from “what about the men?” and other classic derails because it acknowledges that rape, sexism, and misogyny are real issues — just not, you know, real issues that the speaker is involved with in any way. The “not all men” man, at least in some cases, agrees with you and is perfectly willing to talk about how terrible those other guys are, just as soon as we get done establishing that he himself would never be such a cad.

    And when it comes up, it's just a reminder of what's important to this or that person.
  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    It is not.
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    The Obvious

    Would be nice, I agree, but the evidence on record suggests you're either being contrarian for the hell of being contrarian, or else haven't been paying attention to the thread.

    Or, perhaps, you would like to expand on your suggestion?
  12. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Wait... what? This sounds like the old tired saying that a man cannot/should not control himself if a woman is dressed provocatively and thus, by doing so, it is the womans fault... why do people still think that way?
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Teckla and Ashes

    Yeah, that's a hell of a thread. Brutal. Just ... fucking ... brutal.

    Six years later, it persists as one of our potentially most iconic insanities.
  14. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    People think all kinds of stupid, evil and/or ugly shit. This one falls into all three categories.

    The writer ignores the fact that humans have a uniquely large forebrain--proportionally about three times as large as our closest primate relatives. This gives us the ability to override instinctive behavior with reasoned and learned behavior.

    But some people would simply rather not put forth the effort.
  15. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Indeed... though I guess sociopathic and/or pathologically criminal tendencies would be a sign of someone who lacks the proper restraint?
  16. Bells Staff Member

    Fucknuckle Award of the year goes toooooooooo....

    Judge Jeanine Howard.

    Yes, that's right madam, take a bow for a spectacular ruling that literally took my breath away.

    Let us all give her a standing ovation. Because she deserves it for winning this award!

    “She wasn’t the victim she claimed to be."

    A Texas judge used those words to justify the lighter-than-light sentence she gave to a rapist, telling the Dallas Morning News that the 14-year-old victim had three previous sexual partners and had given birth before the sexual assault.

    As a result, Judge Jeanine Howard sentenced Sir Young to just 45 days in jail, 5 years of deferred probation and 250 hours of community service. If Young completes his probation, he will have a chance to wipe the conviction off his record.

    The paper reports that the judge asked the victim several times during the trial if she cried during the attack. The girl said she did not, but cried later.

    The victim also testified that she only wanted to kiss Young, and had told him "no" and "stop" during the attack.

    Young, who pleaded guilty to raping the girl at school in October 2011, was 18 at the time of the attack. Howard said his age and the victim's age were another consideration.

    “There are rape cases that deserve life. There are rape cases that deserve 20 years,” Howard told the Dallas Morning News. “Every now and then you have one of those that deserve probation. This is one of those and I stand by it."

    Apparently if you say "stop" and "no" when you are being raped, it's not really rape if you have had sex before or had a child before. It is certainly not rape if you don't cry during the attack.

    The rapist new it was rape.. He even said, "that's rape".

    Sir Young may have hated to say that he was a rapist, but he couldn't deny it, either. "That's rape," he said in a recorded interview with a Dallas police detective, describing his encounter with a 14-year-old girl. Young was 18 at the time. They were both students at Booker T. Washington High School for the Performing and Visual Arts. "I hate to have that on my plate. But that's rape."

    Not according to Judge Howard!

    Oh no! No Sirree.. Nope.. Apparently being raped at school is not really rape if you don't cry while being raped and if you have had sex or a child before.

    And if this was not bad enough, Judge Howard rammed her point further in her sentence..

    Howard initially ordered Young to fulfill his community service at a rape crisis center -- something that didn't sit well with the center.

    Yes, that's right. She sentenced a rapist to work in a rape crisis center.

    Let that sink in for a few moments.

    The center, not surprisingly, did not take this very well, pointing out that for some bizarre reason, 'rape victims don't really want to turn to rapists in their time of need after being raped'.

    Oh no he won't, says the rape crisis center. Apparently, rape victims don't like turning to rapists in times of crisis.

    "We all read it [the sentence] and we're like, wait a minute," Bobbie Villareal, Executive Director of the Dallas Area Rape Crisis Center, tells Unfair Park.

    The center accepts volunteers, but not people completing community service hours. Volunteers all have to undergo a criminal background check. "You cannot in any form or fashion have anything on your record," Villareal says. "The fact that she would order 250 hours at a rape crisis center just surprised us."

    Curious, Villareal has been waiting to see if Young ever calls the center about completing his community service there. (If the call comes in, the answer is still no).

    The only other rape crisis center in Dallas is at Parkland. And they don't use any volunteers at all, a hospital spokesman tells Unfair Park.

    It seems then that Young has little chance of spending 250 hours assisting rape victims. Informed of this, the judge's court coordinator told Unfair Park that she'll change the sentence slightly. "She's going go back and modify those conditions and give him community service hours somewhere else, but she hasn't determined where yet," Court Coordinator Jerry Barker says. The judge's office otherwise declined to comment on the sentence.

    Hopefully, the new volunteer spot will not be a place involves direct contact with sexual assault victims or children.

    Mr Young's lawyer admits it was rape, but you know, it's just two kids messing about.

    Nothing to see here folks. She said "no" and "stop" several times while she was raped, but no, it's rape, but yeah, rape is just when two kids mess about!

    The victim, who is now 17, told The News on Thursday night that she feels it would have been better if she had never come forward about the 2011 assault. She and Young testified last week at his trial that she had told Young “stop” and “no” numerous times before and during the attack at Booker T. Washington High School for the Performing and Visual Arts, where both were students.

    “I did what I was supposed to do. I went to the law about this situation,” she said. The judge’s probation sentence and the removal of the restrictions — “that says everything I went through was for nothing.”

    “It would have been better for me not to say anything,” said the girl, who is not being identified because The Dallas Morning News does not typically identify victims of sex crimes.

    The district attorney’s office said it plans to file a motion asking for the terms of probation to be reconsidered.

    But Young’s defense attorney, Scottie Allen, said the judge acted correctly. He said the case involved “two kids messing around at school” but agreed that Young did rape the girl.

    “Legally, he is now a sex offender, but looking at the underlying facts and circumstances, those conditions are not warranted,” Allen said. “We cannot treat every case the same.”

    So standing ovation to Judge Howard folks! She deserves this one..
  17. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Well sure. These people are wired wrong.

    Of course people with ADD, autism, dyslexia, etc., are also wired wrong, but their wiring doesn't motivate them to be sociopaths. Some (but by no means all) of them may be "burdens to society" because they can't quite pull their own weight. They need a lot of help without being able to give very much back--analogous to children who never grow up. But that's quite different from sociopaths, who do their best to pass for normal, and cleverly and deliberately game the system in order to have a twisted version of "fun" at everyone else's expense--rape, murder, grand larceny, property damage, etc.

    Two high-school girls in a Baltimore suburb were recently prosecuted for the "games" they played with an autistic boy in their class. One of the most astounding things they did was urge him to walk out onto a frozen lake and keep going until he fell in. They did nothing to help him get back and he barely made it. Then they made him ride home in the trunk of their car (and remember this was winter) so he wouldn't get the upholstery all wet!

    The boy begged the authorities not to arrest them, because they were his best friends and, after all, he wasn't really harmed.

    This is what happens when sociopathy meets autism. The older one was tried as an adult and might get a sentence of eighty years! The younger is a juvenile and the "system" will try to "rehabilitate" her.

    A reporter visited the school at lunch time and found the boy sitting completely alone at a table, with the other students huddled as far away as they could get. And these were the "normal" kids.

    I have two friends in their 30s who are autistic. They have menial jobs, like rounding up errant supermarket carts, but it gives them a sense of giving something back. And their parents still help them. They come to karaoke almost every week and have actually learned a lot about singing better. The smiles on their faces when we all applaud for them could light a baseball field.

    I've also known a couple of sociopaths. It was they who gave me the creeps.
  18. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    You don't say... Quite the lark though, I had no idea who was who or what I had wondered into. Wow.

    I'm still not sure about the whole predeterminism / determinism / destiny thing. I prefer to believe life is composed of both choice and chance. But hey, that's just my personal opinion. I'm happier that way...
  19. Bells Staff Member

    Nah... Just stay home..

    So what does drugging your wife, raping her and then filming you having sex while she is passed out?

    An Indiana man was sentenced on Friday to eight years of home detention after being convicted of raping his wife when she was asleep and likely drugged, prosecutors said.

    A jury found David Wise, 52, of Indianapolis, guilty on April 30 of six felonies - one count of rape and five counts of deviate conduct, according to Peg McLeish, a spokeswoman for the Marion County prosecutor's office.

    Marion County Superior Court Judge Kurt Eisbruber imposed a two-year suspended sentence plus eight years of home detention for the rape count. Ten-year suspended sentences were imposed for each of the remaining counts.


    Wise was charged in 2011, after his now ex-wife told police she found three sex videos of her in Wise's cellphone taken while she was asleep, according to court documents.

    The woman told police she believed Wise had been drugging her for about three years before their divorce in 2009, when she began to wake up often with a pill dissolving in her mouth, according to court documents.

    The woman said that Wise initially denied his actions, but then told her he had been drugging her and having sex with her while she was unconscious.

    Having served just under a year between being arrested and his trial, apparently his crimes against his wife were not worthy of further prison time.
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

    For a great many reasons.

    The prototype of relationships as portrayed in our media. Watch any drama and count how many equal, fairly happy relationships there are vs. the number of problem relationships. The number of people with exes, the number of times a man shakes his head and sadly says "no, my wife . . . ." the number of times a woman on a show complains about men. Such prototypes set people up to expect relationships to be rancorous and difficult, thus setting the stage for people to expect conflict. This has gotten worse in something of a vicious cycle - as more media portrays relationship prototypes this way, more people engage in them, thus setting the stage for more media portrayals of a subject familiar to many viewers.

    The overarching prototype that men should be aggressive and women should decide who to "give in" to. Note that this has actually gotten BETTER with time. Consider "It's a Wonderful Life" - an iconic movie that most people consider a heartwarming family story from a simpler, more moral time. Note what George does to Mary just before he kisses her for the first time.

    The societal premise that men are just going to be aggressive, and that women who do not successfully defend themselves are somehow impure. This leads not only to sexual violence, but to women who fear to come forward about sexual assault. Fortunately this is improving, albeit slowly.

    The objectification of women prevalent not only in pornography and popular culture but even in children's toys. This tends to cause society to devalue their demands, such as the right to say "no" to sexual advances.

    Because it's a very scary thing to contemplate, and it's easy to misplace that fear onto men who _can_ help themselves (i.e. the vast majority.)
  21. Bells Staff Member

    For women who have been raped, it comes down to trust. Especially if their rapist is someone they knew and trusted or simply believed that they did not think that person was capable of such violence.

    It's not that it is easy to misplace that fear onto all men.

    It's simply that once you are violated like that, once someone strips away your freedom, your control over your body, strips away your rights in such a way and violates you.. It is hard to trust any person of that sex. It's hard to trust anyone.

    Because you sit there and think 'could you do it too?'.. Even though you know they would not, you still doubt yourself and doubt them. And it is that self doubt that kills you. It is that that makes you fearful and simply not trust those around you... Especially if the perpetrator is someone known to the victim. It's self preservation and still trying to come to terms with having been a victim. And it is about self control and being able to finally control something again. You can control who you trust and do not trust.
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Middle America and Rape Culture

    Rape Culture: A Proud Tradition of 'Middle America'?

    We probably wouldn't blame anyone for wondering something so vague as the proverbial "WTF?"

    The superintendent of the eastern Ohio district where two high school football players were found guilty of rape in a high-profile case last year wiped computer hard drives, erased emails and lied to investigators about his knowledge of the allegations against the boys, newly released court documents say.

    The filing Thursday came in the case against Steubenville superintendent Michael McVey, 51, who has pleaded not guilty to felony counts of tampering with evidence and obstructing justice, and misdemeanor counts of falsification and obstructing official business.

    The charges stem from an investigation of McVey's actions after he learned of the allegations in 2012 made by a 16-year-old West Virginia girl against the two members of the storied Steubenville High football team, one of whom was the team's quarterback. The teens eventually were found guilty in juvenile court and were sent to youth detention centers and classified as sex offenders ....

    .... McVey is accused of misleading authorities about the school's investigation into the rape allegations and concealing knowledge about rumors of sex and drinking at a teen party four months earlier.

    The new filing alleges that he erased evidence that included emails and data on computer hard drives. McVey may have had someone wipe the hard drives for him, the document says.

    McVey is on paid administrative leave. Calls seeking comment from his attorney Friday were not returned.

    Three other people associated with the school and football team were charged along with McVey.


    It should also be noted that two of the other people arrested and charged in this latest batch are elementary school principals accused of failing to report suspected child abuse; those two have an out in exchange for training and community service requirements.

    The remaining individual charged is a volunteer coach who pled no contest to hosting a party featuring teenage students and alcohol, resulting in a ten-day jail sentence.

    To the one, this is certainly what rape culture looks like. To the other, it is also a spectacular example, one that stands prominently above the noise and bluster of ideas and presumptions that drive rape culture.

    Just look at the priorities: Football? Yeah, compared to high school football, rape is just an annoying distraction.

    To what degree is this sort of thing also a component of that legendary "Middle America" so proud of its "family values"?


    Gillispie, Mark. "Steubenville Schools Chief Accused Of Destroying Evidence In Rape Investigation". Associated Press. May 23, 2014. HuffingtonPost.com. May 24, 2014. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/23/michael-mcvey_n_5382894.html
  23. Bells Staff Member

    Is this the so called Middle America that blamed the victims?

    You are not looking at the bigger picture in the context of how rape victims and their rapists are portrayed. Remember the court case for the rapists in this case? The media showing the 'young boys' crying, distressed, wanting to go home to Mummy and Daddy.. Protecting those "boys" was more important than protecting the girl who should have known better than to go out drinking with boys. And lets not forget the fact that boys will be boys and again, she should have known better or kept her mouth shut.

    This isn't surprising at all. This is what happens. You see it in any football team to be honest. Allegations of sexual assault and the team goes silent. We saw something similar here in Australia a few years ago when very prominent football players were accused of gang raping a young woman. She had gone to a party and slept with her date, one of these players.. And the next thing she knew, the several others were in the room, naked and they raped her. And these were big boofy rugby league players, there was no fighting them off.. She was 19 at the time. This was apparently a team bonding session and it was common in that others had also reported similar assaults by other teams. In this one case, some of the staff that tour with the players were also in the room taking part in it.

    Not a single one was charged.

    The cover up by the teams was insane. And people blamed the woman. The apologies, the few that came, were not to her, but to the wives and children of the players, by her rapists, for the insult their cheating on the wives caused their wives.. Nothing was said to the victim.

    So I cannot say I find it surprising in this case that he destroyed evidence and the failure to report. This is what the sporting culture is now for many sports, especially football, regardless of the 'code'. The rapists were assets and well, they protect their own. Women who are raped in such circumstances were clearly asking for it. This isn't new. This sadly happens all the time.
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