Rape and the "Civilized" World

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Mar 27, 2013.

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  1. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    because you are saying there is no way to lessen the likelihood of becoming a rape statistic (despite statistics clearly showing that there are things one can do or ignore to increase the likelihood)





    Sure, but you didn't follow up on it



    There is a reason why people who know about such things laugh at your response because there are clearly things a person can do to prevent the likelihood of becoming another rape statistic.


    And just imagine how stupid a person would feel if they blatantly ignored all the warning signs and fell victim because they took your advice about waiting at an abandoned railway station at night.


    sure

    Are you aware that taking precautionary measures is effective against not only these minority rapes (estimated to be in the region of 30% of all cases) but also some cases where the assailant is a known person?

    the reality is that you imagine waiting at an abandoned railway station is just as "safe" as any other time place or circumstance




    If you actually read what I posted instead of imagining stuff I wouldn't have to say it ....




    feel free to find statistics to support your air-head statements

    ditto above


    and alternatively, when such self empowering models of prevention succeed, she will reap the success of successfully using her common sense

    And in short (if we want to parrot a diametrically opposed but nonetheless similarly idiotic ridiculously extremely absurd option) there is no such thing as rape education that will not entail the man viewing every woman as a potential victim of theirs and refusing to speak to or associate with or be anywhere women could be.

    Gee, seems we are in a bind ...



    your response doesn't explain how the incorporates several risk factors from the wiki page (factors that don't exist for a woman in her house btw ... which you are somehow equating in that fanciful little thought-cage of yours as being just as safe/potentially dangerous as the train station)



    I can't see how you cannot believe it.

    All you have been able to do is whine about there exist scenarios that are more challenging or impossible to prevent (a notion I agree with ... if you ever managed to read anything as opposed to imagine stuff for the sake of ranting or whatever) ... and some how try to play this in a magical manner to render all subsequent programs of prevention (such as not planning to wait at the said railway station - which does actually incorporate several high risk factors given in the link) ineffective.

    IOW because something could potentially fail, it will fail and there is nothing that can be done about it.

    With that attitude you couldn't even dress yourself in the morning .....



    Perhaps that might require you to read stuff instead of imagining half of it and ignoring the other half

    And what you are pushing is the criminalization of common sense ... which is a brilliant recipe for further suffering

    Its an accurate depiction of the discourse you are having atm
     
    lightgigantic, Mar 30, 2013
    #61

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  3. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    I can walk through a 'red light district' and have nothing happen to me and I can have a friend I know and trust walk me to my car in the evening and he can rape me.

    The thing with rape prevention is that it makes women believe that they can actually prevent their being raped. So what happens is they take all the precautions you can imagine, they wear jeans and loose clothing so as to not draw attention to themselves, they are super vigilant, they do not walk anywhere alone at night, they don't drink or do drugs or get drunk when out with friends (for example), they take self defense classes and everything else you can imagine. And then one day, their partner rapes them. And what happens then is they blame themselves because they then feel as if they have failed.

    Do you understand now why talk of rape prevention is dangerous and sets a precedent that women must somehow be responsible to prevent themselves from being raped? You, as a man, are not empowering women when you start going on about factors in rape and rape prevention. What you are doing is setting an example that it is up to the woman to protect herself and you are also empowering rapists who then go on to think that if a woman is raped or if he manages to rape her, then she obviously wanted it because she didn't do anything to prevent herself from being raped. Your argument about rape prevention is the argument I have seen many lawyers use when defending rapists in court.



    How did you expect me to follow up on it? I gave it more attention than it deserved.


    Which is why it is only you and Wynn who agree with 'rape prevention' thus far in this thread and everyone else is clearly saying you are wrong?

    I guess it is also why I, who actually has experience in rape cases, are telling you that you are wrong?

    You are more likely to become a rape statistic in your own home and your rapist is more likely to be your spouse, partner, relative or friend. So to apply your 'rape prevention' it would mean that every single woman in your life would have to view you as a potential rapist and 1) never be alone with you, 2) be hyper vigilant around you, 3) warn other women that you are a potential rapist, 4) never trust you because you are a potential rapist and they do not want to become another rape statistic.

    To prevent the likelihood of becoming "another rape statistic", women would have to live in absolute fear and terror 24/7 and never associate with men at all.


    You really want to go there?

    Imagine how you would destroy a woman's life if she took your advice about rape prevention and she is raped by her husband/partner or other male relative? How devastated if she takes all the preventions you are prescribing and she is raped and how much she would end up blaming herself for having failed to prevent her own rape.

    You seem to believe that it is acceptable for women to live in fear and terror all the time and you have the nerve to call it 'empowering'. Your 'rape prevention' prattle is chauvinistic because it keeps women in their place.


    Okay then LG.

    From now on, I will spread the word that you, as a male, is a possible rapist and all women around you should take precautions to ensure they are not raped by you if you do turn out to be a rapist and we shall see how much that empowers them.

    You are demanding that women live in fear and terror 24/7. Again, this can only be acceptable if you are a chauvinist pig who seems to believe that women are somehow responsible if they are raped and they did nothing to prevent it. It is beliefs such as yours, that women could have somehow prevented their own rape, which leads to not reporting it to the police. It leads to women feeling ashamed because they then feel that they have done something to allow it to happen to them.


    Having done it many times, it is safer than walking through a busy car park with a trusted male friend.


    Here is the thing, you are the only one (aside from Wynn) who seems to believe that women can prevent their own rape. No one is imagining what you are saying. Unfortunately, we are forced to put up with your ridiculous argument as you put it in this thread. We don't have to imagine it. I think we would have to be twisted to imagine what you are pushing in this thread.

    Says he who supported his 'factors of rape' and which has being a woman and mentally ill as though that can somehow prevent being raped.. And air-head.. Could you be more sexist?

    Leaving aside your own link, which clearly state that intimate rape is much more common than stranger rape, here is some information for you:

    Society teaches us that "real rape" is perpetrated by a stranger. However, statistics show that most victims know their perpetrator. Acquaintance, date, and spousal rape is dramatically more prevalent than stranger rape. In a study published by the Department of Justice, 82% of the victims were raped by someone they knew. The Department of Justice also found that among victims 18 to 29 years old, two-thirds had a prior relationship with the rapist. ​

    In Australia, for example:

    The Australian Women's Safety Survey conducted by the Bureau of Statistics in 1996 involved a random sample 6,300 women aged 18 and over. It produced incidence finding of 1.9 per cent for sexual assault in the previous 12 months. Known men accounted for over two-thirds of assailants (68%).​

    Want me to go on?

    You keep telling yourself that and having that attitude and the blame will continue to be heaped on women because they somehow failed to prevent their own rape. It is a sexist and chauvinistic attitude and downright dangerous and actually inhibits legal action since women then feel so ashamed that they don't report it. Rape prevention is a myth that often results in women not reporting it to the police. So good work with that LG. Good to see you still keeping women where they belong and continuing the cycle of blame onto them with that kind of attitude.


    Here is something that might seem strange to you.

    The only person who can prevent a rape is the rapist.

    It is up to the rapist to not rape.

    Once you wrap your little mind around that, then you might understand where I, and everyone else, happen to be coming from.

    So while society continues to perpetuate the myth that women should somehow act or do things to prevent their rapes, rapists will continue to believe that it is the woman's fault if she is raped, as will chauvinistic individuals like you who carry on as if women should be actively doing things to prevent their own rape.


    Your risk factors include being a woman and being mentally ill.. And you actually expect us to take you seriously? Really? And even your own link states that the biggest risk factor in rape is to be in a relationship or married. Does that mean women should never marry or enter into relationships or associate with men at all?

    I am going to say this as it is..

    You are a chauvinistic and condescendingly sexist prick who expects and demands that women live in fear to try to prevent being raped.

    I and many others have explained to you why your ideology when it comes to rape and women is dangerous. And instead of dealing with the reality, you prefer to continue to push this retarded proposition by dreaming up these scenarios and ignoring that the greater majority of rapes are not stranger rapes as per your scenario, but actually intimacy rapes and instead of accepting this, you twist it and try to say that what you linked for rape prevention can also apply to women who are married or have brother's, father's, friends, etc who happen to be male.

    In short, you continue to blame women for their rapes because you are a twisted little fuck who thinks that women should be doing what they can to prevent being raped, even in the face of evidence that no one can prevent being raped.

    In other words, LG, you are the prime example of what is wrong with society today and why women are raped and treated like criminals when they are raped.



    Having read more than you, having dealt first hand with rape victims and their rapists, having gone through mountains of evidence and gory stories that would make you weep about rape, your dreaming up your scenario and then accusing me of imagining things is, frankly, obscene. Not only are you lying (you are the only one here imagining things - ie your scenario and you are the only one ignoring actual facts about rape and instead trying to push your little scenario as fact) and you are pushing the responsibility to not be raped on women and daring to tout it as being common sense..
     
    Bells, Mar 30, 2013
    #62

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  5. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    and you could also possibly not bother to lock the door and never get burgled, dance around naked in a box full of rattle snakes or put a tarantula in your mouth and staple your lips together too if you were lucky.

    This says absolutely nothing about likely negative consequences when taken within the stride of a statistical body of knowledge

    .
    thats true
    another thing about rape prevention that makes women believe it is because it does work

    and what happens if they do all or even some of those things and it does prevent it?
    If you lock your door to prevent thieves even though you know thieves can potentially get through such precautions, you actually have enough intelligence to understand this ...

    as opposed to what? The safety of throwing caution to getting raped because they don't heed common sense about how to avoid it?
    Its one thing to say that we live in an unfortunate world where one must necessarily see to their own individual protection by whatever means seem workable.
    However its the height of stupidity to say that because even the best plans fail one might as well sit on one's brains and do nothing.

    The topmost irony of all this bullshit you are pushing uphill is that it in no way impedes your wonderful education program about getting men to not rape.
    IOW you are free to implement whatever manner of education you want.



    You are off your rocker again simply imagining shit.

    1. Preventative measures against rape is not a male thing (look around teh web and you can find seminars and what not by women ... but then I guess you have some other bullshit excuse to marginalize them in accordance with your ideological agenda)
    .
    2. The compilation of risk factors of victims surrounding rape in no way makes the prosecution of rapists more difficult ... anymore than identification of risk factors surrounding victims of any other crime gives the green light to the criminal element innvolved

    If the essence of the case rests on such things, it must have been incredibly weak or unclear at the onset ... in the meantime however, successful rape prevention doesn't even get a court appearance anymore than a would be thief who takes a look at your security grill and walks away, so go figure ....





    by everyone you mean parmalee and tiassa?
    and that aside, none of the three of you have addressed the brunt of the argument in a straight forward manner so its not like your efforts have been anything close to noble

    lol
    and here I was thinking that any successful crime prevention program would see an absence of incidents in the court room ... oh well I guess we can now discard every crime prevention program on the planet ....

    please read what people say rather than just rant on auto-pilot.
    Have I ever said anywhere in this thread anything to discredit this?
    If I haven't (and in fact even agreed with it on several occasions) why must you say it like a dozen times in each of your responses?

    No more than living in a manner to avoid becoming another theft statistic or any other victim orientated crime you care to mention ... I mean its your prerogative not to lock the front door of your house if you feel that it impedes your quality of life or whatever, but you should be aware that its not a recommended act, even if you have the anecdotal experience of never being burgled except in the instance you spent $8000 on home security ... and as a side note, if you do get burgled and you leave the door open, its not like that automatically grants the culprit a get of jail free card (unless of course the incident is contextualized by other issues that render the conclusion a bit dubious)



    This is really pathetic.

    According to you, one should never engage in any sort of preventative course of action since the pain of trying to prevent something and failing is so catastrophic that it is better to simply suffer the consequences full on (and of course hire a lawyer to take your money and prosecute anyone involved), no matter whether we are talking about preventing relationship break up, mold on one's stamp collection or even death itself.

    In case you haven't woken up to the stark reality of real life, existence itself moves from one moment of an attempted preventative program to another. Some are quite short term and immediate (like say preventing hunger or thirst) and others are long term (like preventing the banks repossessing one's house ... although in some drastic circumstances this can also take an immediate form). In an everyday manner we sometimes refer to this as "common sense".

    IOW life itself is the act of negotiating a network of greater and lesser dangers.

    Sure, one can shroud one's self in ignorance of the dangerous nature of existence (and expediently seek the services of lawyers as required ... much to their $$$glee$$$) but the end result is simply suffering.



    heaven forbid if you ever come up to speed with any other crime statistics and associated programs of prevention that arise from analyzing the data ...



    hence (the consequence of the scenario you are incapable of responding to in an intelligible manner ...)

    okay then no problem
    if you have a daughter and she wants to catch the train like that regularly after a night's drinking, fine.
    you just have to be vigilant if she wants to form trusting long term friendships with men .... unless of course you are capable of incorporating anecdotal experiences into the wider body of statistical events to construct a different model of prevention

    :shrug:




    unfortunately that is not the response we are after.

    If you have some argument that the data that surrounds any (not just rape - ANY) victim orientated crime cannot be shaped in to some sort of preventative model please provide it now.

    So far all you have been able to do is talk about how the most common statistical occurrence proves to be the most challenging if not impossible to prevent (yes yes we all know that so please don't say it another 12 times in your next post) and slather around the forum full of dull insults.


    well I think we can agree that you are an air-head because I am quite certain I never said that.

    If you disagree, quote me.


    (is that the 13th time you said that now ?)

    I actually chuckled when I read this.

    I mentioned the exact same thing earlier in this post and you responded by flying off the deep end:

    Bells : You are aware that the minority of rapes are 'stranger rapes'?

    Me:sure

    Are you aware that taking precautionary measures is effective against not only these minority rapes (estimated to be in the region of 30% of all cases) but also some cases where the assailant is a known person?

    Bells :Okay then LG.

    From now on, I will spread the word that you, as a male, is a possible rapist and all women around you should take precautions to ensure they are not raped by you if you do turn out to be a rapist and we shall see how much that empowers them.

    You are demanding that women live in fear and terror 24/7. Again, this can only be acceptable if you are a chauvinist pig who seems to believe that women are somehow responsible if they are raped and they did nothing to prevent it. It is beliefs such as yours, that women could have somehow prevented their own rape, which leads to not reporting it to the police. It leads to women feeling ashamed because they then feel that they have done something to allow it to happen to them.



    lol - keep up the good work, champ.



    only if you are actually going to explain why your statements aren't air -headed as opposed to throwing information out there has nothing to do with what you said.

    Just a refresher, this is what you actually said (as opposed to what you imagined you said or whatever) :

    Bells : A woman is just as likely to be raped in her own home by a stranger than she is being on a train station at 1am in the red light district.
    Me : feel free to find statistics to support your air-head statements

    So IOW , please provide statistics that show rape by a stranger (IOW that which constitutes around 30% of all reported rape incidents) in the home is just as likely as rape in the train station scenario as given (ie waiting for 40 mins at 1am on a saturday morning after a night's drinking at a somewhat abandoned train station adjacent to a red light district).

    If you can't provide the statistics, you have just made, an air-head statement, ok?

    And btw, I can't believe I missed this gem
    okay pack your bags and go home bells.

    You just admitted you adopt a preventative program against becoming a victim of crime.

    Its now safe to drop this charade of you being totally bereft of common sense for the so-called greater good of society.

    And as a further detail, you also acknowledge that isolated areas adjacent to a red light district (one's that don't get a constant stream of any sort of traffic, police or otherwise) pose a greater security risk



    yeah its kind of common - even you tell us that you do it to ... even when you are in the middle of trying to argue the opposite.
    Tough, isn't it?

    when I saw you linked an article explaining why rape prevention is a myth, I thought, wow, she finally is going to spit up something substantial.

    Unfortunately this is the only relevant part from the link :

    Myth : It is up to women to avoid being raped. Reality : It is not up to a woman to avoid being raped- rather it is up to men to take responsibility for sexual violence and to stop raping women and children.

    The irony is that even you can not wholeheartedly subscribe to this so-called reality since you are mindful to park your car in areas you assume don't jeopardize your personal safety

    .. at the very least they have an apt logo

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    Much like the only one who can prevent shop lifting is the shop lifter, the only one who can prevent robbing banks is the bank robber, the only one who can prevent parallel parking are parallel parkers and the only one who can prevent identity theft are identity thieves.

    Brilliant, innit!!!


    yet for some funny reason you park your car in places in an attempt to prevent anything bad happening to you.

    You probably also lock your door.

    Hell, you might even have medical and car insurance too.



    Mentally ill?
    In the train station?
    Are you imagining stuff again?


    yup yup ... you must be imagining stuff again.
    Whats that?
    The 14th time?

    Haven't read all your post yet.

    Wonder if we will get to 15 ....


    Your intelligence is simply derailed due to the challenges of your life.

    Rather than face issues and people direct on, you simply draw off into your haunted little world and look at things through shit-stained glasses.

    You mean you and two others?
    And to top it off, you let slip that you also adopt preventative measures in accordance with the said ideology.

    yeah .... sounds like a checkmate


    actually the scenario was based on statistics ... yet for some weird reason you felt free to exercise your poetic license and make the girl at the train station mentally disabled or something

    YES
    15th

    I knew you could do it!!!

    I guess that must make you a doubly twisted fuck since you like to make a habit of parking your car in a safe place ... although I am not usually in the habit of calling people who adopt common sense twisted fucks.

    I guess being a professional lawyer must do that to a person ....

    deny everything
    blame everyone
    be bitter.




    and despite it all you still rely on nothing but anecdotal stories in attempt to fly in the face of mountains of evidence that suggests the contrary, inadvertently admit you adopt preventative measures and imagine saying " a majority of rapes are performed by known persons" about 15 times a post as if it somehow justifies the nonsense of facing life with an absence of preventative measures.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
    lightgigantic, Mar 30, 2013
    #63

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  7. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    You don't actually understand the dangers of the myth of rape prevention, do you?

    .
    Prove it.

    We know it doesn't work because of the sheer scale of rape and sexual assault. And we know it doesn't work by just looking at the insane number of rapes and sexual assault that are never reported.

    Why not make her wear a chastity belt and be done with it?



    So you actually believe a woman can avoid getting raped?

    I guess if she lives the life of a hermit and treats every single male and female around her as a potential rapist, sure. Do you like being viewed as a potential rapist?

    It is the height of stupidity to claim that women can avoid being raped.

    Yes, how dare I say that women should be free to live their lives without fear that the men around them or they may come into contact with will rape them. How insanely stupid of me to expect that women be viewed as equal instead of having this shadow hanging over her telling her that she must do this and that to avoid getting raped and to prevent being raped. Because that does not set the standard at a place which will see her view herself as a failure if or when she is raped, will it?

    No, instead, we can just focus on your bizarre and twisted little scenario where you imagine women being raped in train stations in the red light district at 1am after a night of drinking.

    We can concentrate on how you believe that women must somehow be responsible to not be raped.



    Actually, it is a male thing.

    It is men who believe that women can somehow prevent or avoid being raped. It is men who perpetuate that myth and expect women to swallow it whole. Like you are pushing it in this thread.

    In all my years on this site, it has always been men who have pushed rape prevention. Never women. And the men who have done it have usually been the misogynistic types who have issues with women in general. Such as yourself.

    Your compilation of risk factors that you linked from Wiki actually does make prosecution of rapists more difficult. And believe me, I have seen slimes like you try to push the argument that 'she obviously didn't do enough to keep herself safe' when defending their rapist clients.

    What the rape prevention myth that you are pushing here does is put the onus on the woman to prevent being raped, instead of forcing the onus on the man to not rape.

    So what happens with disgustingly sexist arguments like yours is that if and when a woman is raped, the belief then switches to asking her what she had been doing when she was assaulted which then puts the blame and the onus on her for having been raped. The domino effect of this is that women then just don't bother reporting their rapes and sexual assault because people like you make them feel that they are somehow responsible because you believe that rape can be prevented and avoided.



    You still don't understand it, do you?

    If a woman were unfortunate enough to prescribe to your version of rape prevention, she would literally live in fear and she would be shamed if she were raped. Because you have put the onus on her to not be raped instead of on the man to not rape.



    Oh, we have gone through this topic many many times over the years and I have seen sexist individuals like yourself come and go, trying to bully others into believing that women should be preventing their own rapes.


    Do you view rape and sexual assault as being the same as car theft?


    Because you are thick and believe that women can somehow prevent being raped.


    You equate being raped as being somehow similar to having your house burgled? You are comparing rape to burglary?

    Really?




    No. According to me, no one should ever tell a woman that she should take preventative steps to stop herself being raped, not should any twat be telling women that she can prevent or avoid being raped because what that does do is set a standard that will result in her being seen to be responsible if she is raped.

    Do you understand now?

    Nor would I ever tell a woman that I lock my house up to prevent burglaries, so she should do this or that to avoid being raped.


    You have failed to provide any statistics about rape prevention. What you have provided is the factors of rape link, which clearly states that stranger rape is rare and that the biggest factor in rape is being married or having a partner. And then you, in your zeal to try to bypass this, tried to build up this scenario of the train station late at night, ignoring that stranger rape is much rarer than acquaintance rape and then prattled on about how a woman can avoid being raped and then had the nerve to say that women can just use the same preventative measures against their spouse, partner, relatives or acquaintance.


    You just don't like the fact that I find your scenario dumb. And you also don't like the fact that acquaintance rape is the most common and that yes, if I had a daughter, she would most likely be raped by someone she knows than in a train station in the red light district. Those are the facts.

    You whine about women preventing rape, when the reality is that the only way to prevent being raped is to not associate with men at all because a woman is more likely to be raped by a man she knows and more than likely, married to or in a relationship with. This is documented even in the links you provided.

    I mean we can keep going with your moronic scenario if you want, but your scenario does not mirror reality. It only mirrors what you have going around in your head about how you think women are raped.

    Tell me something, do you even believe a woman can be raped by her husband?




    Who is "we"?

    Considering your sexist and chauvinistic manner of posting to me, you really have no right to talk about dull insults.

    And you just don't like the fact that your scenario you have dreamed up in your mind is unrealistic and does not mirror the reality of rape. I mean sure, we can delve into your fantasies, but that does not address reality.



    Who is we?

    Do you even read your own links?

    Or are you going to deny what you linked now?



    (is that the 13th time you said that now ?)


    What's the matter LG?

    You are male. If I were to follow your preventative measures, I would view you as a potential rapist and warn every woman I know that you are a potential rapist.




    Just as you cannot provide any statistics to prove that your scenario even happens.

    What I showed you is that stranger rape is rarer than acquaintance rape. I also provided you with links that show that a woman is more likely to be raped by a man she knows in her own home than by a stranger. Now certainly, if I want to delve into your weird fantasies about raping women in dark train stations at 1am and compare that to being raped by a stranger in her own home - ie a person would have to break into the woman's home and rape her...

    I will be honest, the rates of home invasions by strangers which result in rapes are hard to come by because home invasions and rape are reported differently and home invasions are classified differently in different States and areas.


    Actually no. I'd park my car there because there was less of a risk of it being stolen.


    Okay, let me see if I have this correct.

    You claim that women can prevent and avoid being raped. I say that prevention is a myth and I have stated from the outset that it is up to men to not rape. I provide a link to this as well, to show how your argument is a myth and you are trying to say that I do not believe that because I used to park my car in the areas where there were a lot of prostitutes and brothels because those areas are more heavily policed and it meant my car would be safe there?

    You do know and understand the difference between a car and a woman, don't you?

    Or are you still pushing the offensive line that your putting a lock on your car is somehow akin to a woman preventing being raped?

    Yes you are...


    Wow.. How offensive can you actually get.

    You are comparing rape to shop lifting and theft.. Tell me, do you view women as merchandise like a shop keeper would view his wares like his merchandise? The only way you could actually try to compare rape with preventing car theft is if you view women like a commodity.


    Do you have any idea of how offensive your comparison actually is? Any idea at all?


    I'm sorry, how does your rape fantasy go again? Drunk girl at train station at 1am in the red light district?

    As for the mentally ill, perhaps you should read your own links before posting them.



    I beg your pardon?

    Says he who came up with is rape fantasy and tried to pass it off as though it was somehow factual and then compared putting a lock on your car as being somehow akin to a woman preventing being raped.


    Only if you view preventing car theft as being somehow akin to rape.

    I'm sorry, your 1am train station in the red light district scenario is based on statistics?

    Link please?

    And I guess being a misogynistic twat is why you compare putting a steering lock on your car as being a standard for women in preventing and avoiding being raped.


    Right..


    Actually, the mountain of evidence shows that rape prevention is a myth perpetrated by misogynistic individuals like yourself who thinks that because he can prevent his car being stolen, the same standard should apply to women when it comes to rape and sexual assault. Because heaven forbid a man not rape. Best for a woman to not be raped instead by doing god knows what to prevent being raped.

    You are one sad and sick offensive little man.
     
    Bells, Mar 30, 2013
    #64
  8. wynn

    wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    If, on their first date, he yells at the waitress, drives through a red light or gets drunk, for example - those are pretty good indicators that there might be some considerable trouble ahead in a relationship with him, and the same goes for women.
    There are many warning signs early on, and if one bothers to take them seriously, one can spare oneself of a lot of trouble.


    Talk about rape!!

    You are setting yourself up as the one who gets to decide whether you adequately interpret what I said or not!


    You're decontextualizing this. The poster in question has repeatedly, in open forums and in private, brought up these issues, in considerable detail for months, seeking input and help, without getting anywhere. So after much consideration, I eventually suggested a different approach. In this case, it seemed to have backfired. But this is the risk that needs to be taken if one is to make progress.

    But apparently, this last act is all you have remembered from the events.


    Whom exactly are you trying to convince of this? Yourself?


    By encouraging behaviors that everyone with half a brain would consider risky.


    Wrong.


    Wrong.


    Oh, you think that if I had read that excruciatingly long OP, I'd end up agreeing with it?


    Beware, your militant feminism might backfire someday.


    And that Freudian slip!


    Who forces women to buy those magazines, to believe that media, to work in those companies?
    Who puts guns to the heads of women or knives to their throats, and threatens to kill them if they don't buy "women's magazines" and if they don't think, feel, speak and act in line with the directives given in them?
    Who?


    Your ploy to win, to prevail, at all costs, even if it means abusing the people you talk to, even if it means saying nonsense.

    I do admire your ambition, it's the kind of thing that gets people ahead in life. It's just a tad ... sick.


    Gee, guess what: the major factor for dying is that you were once alive! So if you don't want to die, don't get born!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
    wynn, Mar 30, 2013
    #65
  9. wynn

    wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
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    Given that some perpetrators of rape are female, you should also warn every man that you know - and every woman - that every man and every woman is a potential rapist!
    Including yourself!

    Woohoo!
     
    wynn, Mar 30, 2013
    #66
  10. wynn

    wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    Perhaps the range of your ideas (and Tiassa's) of how and why women and men can associate with one another is so narrow that they all fall into the category usually listed as "at risk for rape," which is why you conclude that LG's suggestion for rape prevention means that women should simply avoid all men and live in fear.
     
    wynn, Mar 30, 2013
    #67
  11. wynn

    wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    Or she's simply so ambitious, so determined to win, that she will do anything to win.
     
    wynn, Mar 30, 2013
    #68
  12. Tiassa

    Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,893
    This and That

    It would be fair to say that I am often amused by how often people fail to think through the implications of their words.

    Think of it this way: My former partner once threatened to kill me. At the time, I didn't think much of it because she was drunk and in a vile mood. It was only when I was chuckling about the incident to someone the next day that things got serious. Everyone I know suddenly flipped out.

    In my partner's defense, though, she could always say that she never threatened to kill me. After all, what she actually threatened was to shoot me, and, yes, she owns a gun. Never mind that the implication was that she should shoot me so that she could be rid of me and be happy; she never actually said the word "kill", so it really is unfair to say she threatened to kill me. And, indeed, I never took it as an actual threat. I just took it as a drunk idiot lashing out in ego defense. But even today, people will remind me: "Remember, she threatened to kill you once."

    Given the statistical reality of rape—

    "Basically the problem with what you are presenting is that you put the onus for an individuals protection on someone else (namely the perpetrator .... of all people

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    )."    ​

    —the underlying implication of your argument is, when functionally applied, when some man decides a woman's jeans or skirt must mean that she wants to have sex, and her mouth says no but her eyes say yes, it's her fault.

    Okay, so the onus of protecting herself is on her. Statistically speaking, the safest preventative measure she can take against that rape is simply not accepting the date, and not acknowledging the man so that he has no reason to ask her out on a date. After all, it's her responsibility, according to your argument, to prevent his behavior.

    I've heard people fall back to illiterate literalism so many times that it's no longer worth getting frustrated at what is either a calculated ruse or outright stupidity.

    Furthermore, as prevention theory advocates such as yourself apparently refuse to acknowledge, identify, or explain the outer boundary of this unique burden placed on women, the functional implications are both obvious and horrifying. As I noted and you refuse to address:

    There are reasonable precautions anyone can take against "crime" in general. But the inability of rape prevention theory advocates to establish an idea of reasonable precautions is more than a little disconcerting.

    Under this open-ended theory of rape prevention, the greatest number of rapes could be prevented if women simply follow some common-sense rules according to statistical outcomes ....

    (Boldface accent added)​

    Over and over, in these rape discussions, I press the prevention advocates to establish some reasonable outer boundary, and they refuse to.

    And then they turn around and complain that they never said that, or that noting the implications of their argument is unfair.

    • • •​

    General Note: Rule 34

    I think here I might be able to cut rape advocates a little bit of slack. That is to say, it might simply be that their grotesque misogyny is the result of ignorance rather than willful evil.

    I make the point because there is an odd phenomenon that occurs whenever one gets a glimpse inside certain aspects of our society's sex and culture disputes.

    So start with the idea of pornography. Moralists hate it. There are many outlooks on feminism that hate it. And whenever I see the pornography they're talking about, yeah, I kind of loathe it, too. It's glitzy, or pretends to be glitzy, and entirely unrealistic. I certainly understand the feminists' take on a lot of pornography, which I describe as "professional" or "pretentious". Whether Playboy and Penthouse, or even the three-pack magazines with titles like Shaved Girls that, I was for some reason surprised to find out still exist in the internet age, yeah. It's stupid. It's boring. But the internet age also reveals another phenomenon in its wide distribution of "amateur" pornography. One can certainly answer the feminists by pointing to some of this material and saying, "Tell this woman who wanted her husband to take a sexy picture and put it online because it gets her off that she's being misogynist."

    Of course, plenty of this "amateur" pornography is presented in a misogynist fashion. That much is perfectly clear when one wanders through the sector known as "user-generated" pornography. The feminists still have a point.

    But that point is beside the point. For our purposes, I would suggest that prevention theory advocates go have a long walk through a large, general user-generated pornography site; there are plenty out there. What you will find is that it doesn't matter how a woman looks; there is always someone to sexualize it, and always someone to make that sexualization ugly.

    Obese women? Check. Women who don't shave body hair? Check. Thongs, bikinis, full-cut belly-button briefs? Check. Ugly "bitches"? Check. Sexy attire? Well, duh, check. Frumpy attire? Check. Conservative attire? Check and double-check (hijab, burqa, and nun's habit pornography is very popular). Topless on the beach? Check. Run of the mill bikinis? Check. One-piece swimsuits? Check. Vintage pictures of women whose swimsuits cover their elbows and knees? Check.

    Seriously. Go take a tour.

    Tell me about prevention, and it's covered by Rule 34.

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    Randall Munroe, xkcd #305    ​

    (And yes, there is "wetriff" pornography out there. I'm quite certain, if you scraped through underground bulletin boards, you could find homoerotic spelling bee pornography. And as we now have adult spelling bees taking place in the United States as a social activity akin to Trivia Night at the bar, legal homoerotic spelling bee pornography cannot be far behind. Oh, and look at the dude's hands in frames #1, 3 and 4.)

    My point, of course, being that it doesn't matter what a woman looks like, or what she does for prevention; someone, somewhere, thinks that's hot.

    Give the women guns and German Shepherds, and you'll start seeing pornography about how to get the dog high, disarm the woman, and have the dog rape her.

    And when it happens for real, people will ask why she didn't take more precautions.

    I would offer here an analogy that involves school shootings by students.

    It's true, I remember the feeling. You know, that these people suck, the world should die, and all that. But the difference between then and now is that my friends and I, when we felt like that, never actually did anything. On some level, we knew we were just venting. And it's true, there was a time when we could actually say something about leaving the smoking corpses in the gutter without people fearing we were actually going to do it. Trying to figure out what changed is part of what fascinates me when I dive into the issue of these mass-murder attempts.

    Comparatively, I am, in the abstract, an advocate that people should be able to write and disseminate the most repugnant pornography stories their sad souls can muster. And as long as they have willing, legal models, they should be able to depict it. The fundamental change that needs to occur before that is a remotely safe idea, though, is that people need to understand the difference between fiction and reality. And it is quite clear that too many do not. In the end, changing societal outlooks on womanhood in general is the only thing that will reduce such dangers. In a similar context, there is no prevention technique you can offer that will actually prevent rape. It is impossible for a woman to guard against everything. And as I noted, compared to the light "prevention" techniques I can employ to protect myself the burdens of this useless prevention theory puts on women is insane.

    In the end, I think prevention advocates could benefit from reviewing reality. One fairly easy thing they could do is actually look into the reality of what people find sexually arousing. Some of what is very easily and freely available to them ranges between aesthetically unsatisfying to downright mystifying to outright horrifying.

    And you'll find it doesn't matter what a woman looks like, or what she does. She's a woman.

    There comes a point past which we cannot eliminate rapes. As with crime in general, you can never erase it entirely. Nature demands a broad enough variation in the human species that there will always be at least someone to do the killing and raping.

    But the fact that a man is aroused does not entitle him to anything. The fact of her drinking, or kissing him, or climbing into bed with him, does not entitle him to anything. Yes, this is absolute.

    It is only because of how a society looks at women that presupposing such entitlement is possible.

    It's easier to say that women should simply protect themselves. But it's always easier to prescribe a talking point that doesn't actually work in application.
     
    Tiassa, Mar 30, 2013
    #69
  13. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    tl;dr

    Obviously you are somewhat intelligent and informed on many subjects.

    However until you learn to write concisely people will mostly ignore whatever you have to say. This appears to even be a problem for you since many times you also do not respond to someone who goes to the pain and effort to respond to your essay like posts (which tends to produce an equivalent 3000 word + contribution).

    A good rule of thumb to begin with is to aim to not exceed a word baggage higher than 200% to what you are responding to.

    As I said, this is a discussion forum, not a blog. Quantity does not equate with quality

    :shrug:
     
    lightgigantic, Mar 30, 2013
    #70
  14. Tiassa

    Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,893
    The Obvious

    You make the point for me.

    (Is that concise enough?)
     
    Tiassa, Mar 30, 2013
    #71
  15. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    But he even put pictures in for you.

    I am often amused when I see responses such as this. And it usually when people cannot come up with a valid response.

    But this thread is aimed at individuals such as yourself. Because you are a living and breathing example of just what is wrong.

    And as he clearly points out. You made his example for him.


    [HR][/HR]


    Rape prevention arguments rarely win.

    Because you are approaching it from a losing and moronic standpoint right from the start.

    You watch too much TV. And it shows just how much you buy into the myths about rape. Best be careful though. The link has many words and since you and LG seem to have with reading (and comprehension), you might struggle with it. I'll try and find one with pop up pictures for you.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    If that were the case, we would not be speaking at all.

    Actually she had not. She advised the instances of her abuse and you saw fit to turn around and tell her that she shared responsibility for being raped as a 3 year old because she went to the neighbour's apartment.

    For a three year old. Rape apologists like you expect 'rape prevention' to start young, don't you?

    More like twats who believe that women can prevent and avoid being raped.

    You know, people who prefer to make excuses for rapists by saying the woman should be able to prevent or avoid her own rape.

    Where have I encouraged any type of behaviour at all?

    Remember, the rape fantasy at the train station is LG's. No one elses.

    Why?

    If you want actual rape prevention, that is what it comes down to. You know, the whole point of this thread....

    Remember, I am not the one pushing rape prevention and avoidance here..

    So we can put your ignorance and stupidity in your inability to read?

    Remember, I am not the one blaming women for their own rapes by advocating rape prevention.

    How delightful. You think only men can be misogynistic and sexist.

    Women do.

    Then again, women are expected to live up to that hype, aren't they?

    So not only can we blame women for their own rapes and expect them to prevent themselves from being raped, but we can also blame women for the media's portrayal of rape and sex abuse.

    Says she who told a child sex abuse victim that she shared the responsibility for her own rape when she was 3 years of age...

    Yep. And the major factor for being raped as a woman is to be a woman. Now, perhaps you can list some preventions for that.

    Sex change perhaps?

    And yet, the ridiculous notion of that argument still hasn't sunk into your skull yet, has it?

    I'll give you a hint.. rape prevention..

    Remember.. We are not the ones pushing for rape prevention and avoidance here. We are not the ones trying to discuss one's rape fantasy about a girl in a train station in the red light district at 1am.

    The point about avoiding men altogether and living in fear is that it shows just how downright stupid the very notion of rape prevention and avoidance is.
     
    Bells, Mar 31, 2013
    #72
  16. wynn

    wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    The sad irony of all this is that you are attacking and abusing people who are harmless, and you leave out those who are actually dangerous and make yourself vulnerable to them.



    Litigation law is not about justice, it is not about morality, it is not about goodness: it is about winning, regardless of the means and costs.

    You're either so uneducated and so naive that you don't know this; or you are so aligned with it that you will try to win, by any means available, at all costs.

    Either way, given how you approach communication on this topic, you are likely to exacerbate and prolong the very problem that you are fighting against.
     
    wynn, Mar 31, 2013
    #73
  17. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    I think for her its all about the professionalism of being a victim as opposed to the prevention of being a victim.
     
    lightgigantic, Mar 31, 2013
    #74
  18. wynn

    wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    I think there's a lot more going on ...
     
    wynn, Mar 31, 2013
    #75
  19. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    kind of strange how you either opt for long winded posts that no one (including even yourself) can be bothered responding to or overly abrupt posts that also warrant the same response.

    Its as if you are pre-disposed to the two extremes of ineffective communication
    :shrug:
     
    lightgigantic, Mar 31, 2013
    #76
  20. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    Who is harmless?

    The one delving into rape fantasies by repeatedly demanding we address his rape at train station in red light district scenario?

    The actual irony is that you are offended that I am applying LG's standard against him.



    Rape is a crime now, Wynn. So it falls under criminal law. So before you insult my intelligence, it might behoove you to actually know the difference between litigation and criminal law. It might also help you to know and understand that rape falls under criminal law because it is a crime.

    And yes, I have helped send many rapists to prison. Does that bother you? Or would you rather I lose and rapists walk free to rape again?

    Against whom?

    [HR][/HR]

    Yes. Because requiring women to be responsible for how men act towards them and whether men rape them or not, is empowering.

    Also, again, rape is a crime these days.

    Just saying.

    Does he need to use smaller words for you?

    Maybe put in a few more pictures, just for you?

    I mean, if you now expect this site to cater for your inability to read and comprehend...
     
    Bells, Mar 31, 2013
    #77
  21. Tiassa

    Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,893
    Demanding the Fantasy

    I don't think it's so much a matter of the words being too long as it is that there are too many of them.

    Consider, to the one, a simple argument: "Women should take precautions to prevent their own rapes."

    And then consider the complexities of reality.

    Indeed, as you noted, he is a living, breathing example. That is, we could try to figure this out, but it's too hard. And, well, you know, it's not fair to ask people to think.

    That he needs the issue simplified to the point of irrelevance is very much emblematic of the problem; there are far too many people who, like him, wish to be viewed as noble and helpful, but don't want to put the effort into actually showing such attributes.
     
    Tiassa, Mar 31, 2013
    #78
  22. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    much like you don't hesitate to be responsible for how car thieves act towards you, even though auto-theft is also a crime.

    And before you go on a tirade about equating a women's body to a car, the similarity is simply when you have a perpetrator looking for an "easy target" (regardless whether the object is rape, theft, fraud or murder) , you also have concomitant factors that establish a "victim".

    Intelligent people can avail themselves of understanding what these factors are and behave in manner to reduce their chances of being caught up in such scenarios (as time, place and circumstances permit - yes yes yes, you have been talking about how the only viable option is for a woman to strictly avoid any association with men - which of course would only leave her open to rape by another woman which is known to occur btw - ......... however a brief investigation of the web by persons actually interested in presenting information in a practical manner never mention your one and only means of avoiding rape and instead seem to offer a host of viable alternatives ).

    Of course, even the best plan can potentially fail. However, if even you can live with the possibility that you could return to an empty car parking space despite your best vigilance, I don't see how this problem can be attributed to anything beyond the challenges of applying preemptive strategies in an uncertain world.

    Why is your attitude so unempowering?
    Because the only viable course of action you present is to pursue legal channels after one is violated.


    Its more about the word count - a 3000 worded response to a 400 word post is generally not an acceptable form of communication in this medium. Even Tiassa himself often fails to respond to someone who goes to the pain and effort to go through his waffle and amplify a response back to him at the same ratio. We can only assume that his failure to respond is for the same reasons.

    Apparently this appears to be something he is socialized around.

    Tiassa is a member of SciForums and one of the moderators of Ethics, Morality, & Justice. He is among the very first regular visitors of SciForums, and was the first member to break the 10,000-post milestone. He is known for his long, well thought-out posts.
    Those who disagree with Tiassa find him to be an unbelivably long winded blowhard, except he somehow converts the wind into letters, which he then puts on the internet, in a public forum, for everyone to suffer through. Those objecting to his methane-laden windage and fair, objective insulting of the debater's intelligence in place of reason are usually given a 2 or 5 point infraction.

    :shrug:
     
    lightgigantic, Mar 31, 2013
    #79
  23. lightgigantic

    lightgigantic Banned Banned

    Messages:
    16,330
    its not so much about simplifying to the point of irrelevance, but communicating in a straight forward manner.
    If everyone else can more or less keep their contributions to a reasonable length, the question is why you fail to do so ...
    :shrug:
     
    lightgigantic, Apr 1, 2013
    #80
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