Rape and the "Civilized" World

Hy pal , don't worry about her , she is from down and under their mind works differently

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

This and That

Sorry. I'll try to make complex issues simpler by ... um ... I don't know, maybe I'll pretend they're simple?

Sorry, dude, but you completely missed the point on that one.

So, to put it simply:

• LG made a point about "a rapist somehow engineering" his own therapy, which as true as that may be does not apply to the overwhelming majority of rapes. The answer to the majority of rapes has to do with attitudes toward women.

• LG also made the point about practical advice, potential victims, and prevention. (See my response to IfIonlyhadabrain below.)

• The problem with these prevention theories is that they're open-ended.

• I made the point to LG.

• Bells made the point to LG.​

What you're missing in your latest summary of Bells' point is the context.

• • •​

I might actually be useful here.

At Sciforums, and in the world at large, discussions of rape inevitably arrive at prevention theory—a list of things that women should do to protect themselves. There are two primary problems with this development in the discussion:

(1) The theory is open-ended. (See the second section of #6 above, where I ask, "But at what point does it stop?" and, "No, really, at what point does this get ridiculous?")

(2) The most part of the imbalance about prevention theory (see #15 above) comes about because, on balance, society apparently finds it too difficult to teach children to respect the humanity of females.​

My response to Bells in #15 considers your point, as well. Certes, we all take precautions under certain circumstances, but it is apparent that no male understands the difference in magnitude of that burden prescribed to women. As I noted, when people say that we all have to take precautions, well, sure, this is true, but it's a vastly different context for men than women.

The rape prevention discussion must, at some point, move past prescriptions of what a woman should do or is expected to do in order to prevent men from raping her. No prevention theory advocate can explain to me what the outer boundary is on that.

And, in truth, yeah, hearing it over and over again, year after year does get old. And, yes, it's true that it is unfair to expect, say, that you're aware of the details of a five year-old discussion; and I'm not sarcastic when I say that despite the fact of the links in the topic post—those threads get long and ugly and hard to read.

But as a general proposition, it's time for people to stop making the point about prevention theory. It's a dumb argument. And the more it gets raised, the more it irritates people.

In your case, yeah, we get it. You don't want to be a target for muggers. But that consideration has nothing on the burdens rape prevention theories put on women. The difference is orders of magnitude.

And by the way, dressing modestly doesn't do a damn thing to keep women from viewing you in a sexual context. Or men. Tell me what a woman should wear, and I can find you someone who thinks it's a turn-on. Or, as Parmalee put it: "90 year-old women get raped, nuns get raped, women dressed in garbage bags get raped."

As we see even across nations and cultures, the common attitude toward sexual violence against women is that it is a woman's responsibility to prevent assault, not the assailant's. The U.S., Australia, India, Pakistan ... I mean, sure, we could go search-fishing for any country from Albania to Canada to Zimbabwe, and you'll find this problem.

And it's time for it to stop.

As to the merchandise thing, well, yeah. There's only so far an analogy can go when it juxtaposes people and mere things.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

and along similar lines of thought, the best theft prevention is to assume that all people are thieves and go from there. In other words, individuals will just refuse to possess anything of value. Since, you know, it is impractical to expect anyone to not steal any article of value one might possess.

IOW anyone who stoops as low as to live behind a door, what to speak of going to the ridiculous length of locking it, is simply failing to live forthrightly by the ethical standard of exercising their right to possess things of value (nevermind how so-called practical it might be)

:shrug:

 

and yet there are Factors associated with being a victim of sexual violence
(btw as far as wearing garbage bags go, being afflicted by poverty doesn't seem to get a +++ according to the article)

Much like there are factors associated with auto theft or indeed any other sort of infringement arising from individuals encroaching on the rights of others ...

:shrug:

 

Lightgigantic ....

Lightgigantic ....

Locking a car door, using a club, locking your house doors and keeping the porch light on ... yeah, these are the equivalent of an open-ended prevention theory that women are somehow expected to subscribe to.

To reiterate:

• So when people say that we all have to take precautions, well, sure, this is true. But it's a vastly different context for men than women. (#15, to Bells)

• No, really, at what point does this get ridiculous? (#6, to Lightgigantic)

• But if we leave the discussion at your points about self-therapy for rapists and prevention for potential victims, the best way for women to prevent their own rapes is to never associate with males, period. (ibid)​

I don't think you have the merest speck of a clue how stupid and offensive it is to compare putting a Club lock on my steering wheel to the insane, open-ended prevention theory that puts the burden of men's behavior onto women.

And you still seem to be ignoring the fact that most rapes are committed by people known to the victim. So let us try applying your prevention theory:

Meet Jane. She works for a small architectural firm in a mid-sized city, and has been there for years. Jane is well liked and respected among her co-workers, and she even considers them friends.

Meet Bob. He works for the same firm, and has known Jane for several years. Everybody thinks they're good friends. After all, Jane and her husband have hosted Bob and his girlfriend for dinner. Jane's kids call him by name. Even her husband likes Bob; he's a fun guy to have a beer and watch the football match with.

On an autumn evening, the team finishes their work on the current project. Jane and Bob are left to file away the last of the paperwork.

The thing is, Bob secretly wants Jane. So as they're walking out to the parking lot, he makes a pass, which the married woman obviously is not anxious to take. So Bob is more forceful, pinning her against her car and groping her. Jane happens to be a woman who doesn't always carry her keys in her purses, and this is one of those nights. So she reaches into her pocket, grasps the keyring so that the keys are sticking between her fingers, and punches Bob as hard as she can, causing considerable pain and winning her enough time to get the hell out of there.

And perhaps we might say, "Good on her. She knew what to do, and how to prevent her rape."

But tell me, what did she do to invite the rape? That is, what precautions should she have taken to make sure that her good friend, a man she trusted even around her children, would not have attempted to rape her?​

After all, since it's her responsibility to not tempt rapists, what did she do wrong?

Really, is her haircut too sexy? How about her outfit? Does she wear the wrong style of makeup? Is it her fault for smiling at his jokes over the years?

What? What should she have done to prevent Bob from attempting to rape her?

The years have seen my car stolen twice. I've been assaulted by a drunk in a club. It even happened once that I was shot at. I have been attacked by my domestic partner; several years ago she even threatened my life—and it's worth noting she does own a handgun.

But nothing ... nothing I have been through compares to Jane's experience. My car? Hell, I was never in any danger. The drunk in the club? Really, the idea that he assaulted me is correct only by technical definitions; it's not like he was in any condition to do me damage. My former partner? Well, we eventually did the smart thing and separated; our relationship is much better now, and our daughter is absolutely awesome.

My family and social relationships have never been shattered the way a rape or even attempted rape can turn Jane's personal sense of safety to shards in the dirt. I've never had to rebuild my understanding of friendship and human relationships the way far too many of my female friends have had to after being raped or escaping an attempted rape.

Spend a night, sometime, sitting back to back in the middle of a room with a rape survivor suffering paranoid delusions, guarding against the goddamn Devil creeping out of the shadows. Listen to your lover tearfully apologize for having been raped years before you ever met her. Watch a woman you love deeply freeze and tremble helplessly in the middle of a conversation because memories of a decade ago wash through her like an icy toxin, and not even she knows what the trigger is.

And then listen to somebody compare her burden, what she should have done to prevent all this, to putting a steering wheel lock on their car.

What should Jane have done?

And when I think of Sarah, Sonja, Suzanne, and Theresa, yeah, there is actually something they could have done to prevent the rape. They could never have accepted the invitation for the dates.

And we haven't even gotten to the ones who never stood a chance. I mean, when her rapist is her father, or maybe her cousin? No, really. Tell her about prevention theory.

And when the doctors in the psychiatric ward are happy to see you because their patient always calms down when you arrive, and stays in a reasonably pleasant mood for a while after you leave, maybe that would be a good time to start lecturing a rape survivor on what she should have done to prevent her rape. You know, because maybe you're smart enough to put a steering wheel lock on your car, so, yeah, you know about crime prevention.

 

Again, not the implication I was going for. I was only responding to the suggestion that women somehow belong to men (which they don't). I didn't mean to imply it's "up to you to protect it." It is, but it's also the law enforcement body's job to protect it, and it's the responsibility of any decent person to protect it when it's being violated, and it's the duty of everyone to NOT violate it.

Duly noted. Next time I'll use a less shortsighted analogy.

 

tiassa -

Basically the problem with what you are presenting is that you put the onus for an individuals protection on someone else (namely the perpetrator .... of all people

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

).

Actually even then, that is not a problem.

It only becomes a problem when you present it at the expense of an individual protecting themself.

 

Point taken.

Yeah, I understand this is true. However, there's a difference. In all our interactions, we engage in signalling. Whether this is through body language, language tone, inflection, etc, or clothing, we signal certain things to the people we communicate with. A married person wears a ring, not just a symbol of fidelity, but also as a signal to others that he/she's unavailable. Flirtation is a signal of availability. A suit and tie is a signal of professionalism, or formality. Sure, dressing modestly doesn't keep everyone from looking at you sexually, but it does signal to most people that you'd like to be taken seriously, that you're not "available," etc, and most people will respect that.

I honestly don't know if dress has any impact on rape. I imagine in some circumstances it could, but not always necessarily "slutty" type dress. Sexual predators are all about domination. For the risk-averse predator, that will mean targeting those with low self esteem, and who are likely not going to fight back as hard (which is why police advise appearing confident). Low self esteem can manifest in a LOT of different ways, though, and in a lot of different dress. The really shy, reserved person will cover up, and not dress "slutty" at all in order to avoid attention. The really outgoing person may engage in that kind of dress to get attention. Both can be manifestations of low self esteem. Dress may be a signal to the predator, or not. They may look for other signals. Nervousness, for example. A laugh that comes too quickly to a not-so-funny joke. Rambling. Things like that.

I honestly don't believe it's "up to the woman" to prevent herself from getting raped. Not at all. It isn't. Let me say it again, it's not the woman's responsibility to keep herself from being raped. The suggestion that my sister-in-law is responsible for her rape is disgusting to me. No. My point is merely that in a world where we know that these kinds of predators exist, it's practical for a woman to be able to defend herself. That's not always possible, maybe it's even rarely possible. I don't know. Heck, I'm not even confident I could prevent a large man from raping me, if he had the urge. I'm a small guy. I'm not even confident I could protect my (even smaller) fiancee, and that scares me.

Absolutely, people need to teach their kids not to rape. I know I will, for my part. I intend to teach my kids humility and service, and not just in word (for my part), but in deed. That's the real lesson kids take away. Not what you tell them, but what you show them.

 

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

so would you consider it a safe plan for a woman to wait by herself 40 minutes at a somewhat vacant inner city train station adjacent to a red-light district at 1am on a saturday after a night of drinking?

 

the point is whether you think it is a safe plan, regardless of whatever opinions anyone has on what people should and shouldn't do.

I am just asking you whether you think its a safe plan.

IOW whether you are capable of compiling the data on risk factors for rape into a practical scenario of prevention

actually I am asking whether you think it is a safe plan.

So for instance suppose you have a daughter in her early twenties and she is planning the night's events.

Do you think "hey, no problem"

so suppose the same daughter is planning to live with her partner?
Can you place that act on any comparative safety scale in relation to the before mentioned act of planning to wait at the train station?

 

Be careful about whom you marry or cohabit with.

Many victims of domestic abuse or who have been abused by people they knew, say afterwards that they saw red flags and alarms early on in the relationship, but ignored them.

Much relationship advice is focused on how to recognize, early on, whether someone is prone to aggressiveness or abuse, and to not get intimately involved with such a person.

 

okay then no problem
if you have a daughter and she wants to catch the train like that regularly after a night's drinking, fine.
you just have to be vigilant if she wants to form trusting long term friendships with men .... unless of course you are capable of incorporating anecdotal experiences into the wider body of statistical events to construct a different model of prevention

You are aware that the scenario I gave incorporates several other factors that are statistically prominent in rape cases?

The difference is that one scenario doesn't really offer an adequate plan of prevention whereas the other does.
Kind of like people get burgled even if they have highly effective security systems ... much like people who leave the door unlocked.

Yes, I agree, that a more effective model would involve potential burglars preventing themselves from stealing (gee, maybe it might even have to be extended to every single human not leaving their house since, if you think about it, anyone is a potential thief), but in the meantime, a vast majority of people will probably subscribe to more practical, self-empowering models of prevention

 

What keeps discussions on this topic stuck is that some people insist on false dichotomies and misrepresentations of the other party's arguments ...

 

Seriously? So I'm guessing stupid and illiterate, and probably misogynistic as well, in your case.

The factors (noted above, but worth repeating):

First of all, you'll note that "poverty" actually does get a +++ -- did you actually read your link, or understand it?

And what do you propose that one "do" about being female? And how does one get "un-raped"? Or age overnight? Or undo a "mental disability"? I suppose as far as the education bit goes, one can always emulate you.

 

yet you still can't put any part of this in to some sort of preventative model?

You were the one who cited wearing a garbage bag, no?
most people I have seen attired in plastic bags weren't pinching their pennies for yacht repayments ...

so would you consider it a safe plan for a woman to wait by herself 40 minutes at a somewhat vacant inner city train station adjacent to a red-light district at 1am on a saturday after a night of drinking?

 

Not if one has the capacity for thinking.

???

Wow.

Ummm... Gee, I don't know.

Now here's one for you: Give me a rough estimate of the percentage of rapes which occur under similar circumstances to which you've outlined, i.e. "at a somewhat vacant inner city train station adjacent to a red-light district at 1am on a saturday after a night of drinking." Put together some of that which you've just read, and think hard on that one.