Rape, Abortion, and "Personhood"

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Nov 1, 2012.


Do I support this proposition?

Poll closed Nov 1, 2013.
  1. Anti-abortion: Yes

    0 vote(s)
  2. Anti-abortion: No

    0 vote(s)
  3. Pro-choice: Yes

  4. Pro-choice: No

  5. Other (Please explain below)

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  1. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    No, I'm telling you that the article strongly suggests that she was emotionally abused into getting an abortion in the first place, that the abortion does not appear to have been her choice. Do you understand the difference? Or are you as clueless as your husband when it comes to abusive relationships and emotional/mental abuse.

    There are some fairly safe inferences that can be made.

    The wording of the article is quite clear.

    My claims only support your original claims if you're a clueless dinosaur from the sixties, but it is becoming increasingly apparent to me that neither you or your husband know the first thing about abusive relationships and the power words have over people. And as much as it galls me to say so, I hope you never do.

    Yup. Clueless. Unless this women gets some counseling (she won't, she's being treated as a criminal rather than a victim) when she gets back out of Jail, she'll probably go right back to him.

    Funnily enough, to the best of my recollection, the only people that claimed that he was the boyfriend were you and your husband.
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  3. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Yeah... ok you know what?
    Yeah- we're all fucking clueless if we don't agree with you!
    You really are a sniveling little prick.
    Go on- say something stupid, Mod.
    A little late for that dipshit- the first one beat the hell out of her (got pictures) in front of small children, the next one was a manipulative liar that held her captive in a foreign country (and MUCH worse than that).
    The only clueless one here is YOU going off on a crusade to champion the "victim" you know nothing about. Some clipping from the paper

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Wanna know what real chivalry is? If you were here I'd break your face and let you bleed on the ground.
    Clueless indeed. Clueless=Trippy. What a pathetic little worm you are, attacking a victim just as much when she probably knows more about it than you ever could just because she doesn't get down and worship your almighty opinion.

    I don't give a rats ass about your arrogant political agenda- You talk to her you'd best keep a civil tongue in your head.
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  5. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    And suddenly I find myself regretting retracting a post I made earlier.
    You've lost track of the conversation again.

    We were talking about mental health as a reason for abortion in the third trimester. I mentionend the risk posed to the mother, and the baby in cases of prepartum, peripartum, and postpartum psychosis.
    You asked me "You mean to say that a woman will wait until the third trimester before suddenly developing these conditions?" (or words to that effect).
    I replied: "Yes, that's exactly what the name means - peripartum, around childbirth."

    And your response is what? That we should allow the mother to put her life and the babies life at risk?

    This is a slippery slope fallacy. It's also a strawman hypothesis. As such, I will not be addressing it further.

    Nonsense. No such modification is neccessary.

    And my point has been what again? Oh, that's right, that some conditions don't manifest until the third trimester. The woman has not neccessarily waited for anything.

    And there we have it folks. It's not our problem. We should just let her take her own life and the babies life.

    You have yet to show a fallacy of any kind in anything I have said.

    Keep making false accusations such as this and I will ban you myself. Nothing in that statement is intellectually dishonest, your just insisting on putting a personal spin on it.

    And as I have pointed out to you, first your arbitrary declaration of third trimester is wrong if you're going by the guideline you claim. Second there are some medically recognized conditions, including mental illnesses that don't manifest themselves until the third trimester.

    Your ignorance of them is not a valid grounds for you position.

    Right, because that's what we're discussing isn't it? Milestones in fetal development?

    From one of the sources I cited:
    By twelve weeks, the brain is fully formed, and the fetus is capable of feeling pain (which formed the basis of Ron Pauls stance on abortion, incidentally).
    Between twelve and twenty two weeks what takes place is rapid growth of the fully formed brain (as in an increase in mass), and some devlopment - the same things that occur right through until adulthood.

    And I have asked you to elaborate on what, precisely you mean by that and provide sources to support your position, something you have failed to do.

    I already have. You have failed to defend your position.
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  7. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    The charge of being clueless isn't based on your disagreeing with me. It's based on your apparent lack of understanding of the implications of mental illness.

    If any of this is true, then she should know better.

    And how much, precisely do you know of my history? Very little. I'll thank you to practice what you preach.

    How I interact with Seagypsy is none of your business, after all, you're seperate people right?

    I don't have a political agenda here. That's your first (of many) mistakes.

    Where I live, abortion isn't a political issue, and hasn't been for thirty years.
  8. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Whatever dude. Most of that reply was crap. You backed nothing up, made claims and said nothing.
    I'm done debating with you- see post right above yours. I cannot place you on ignore, but I can ignore you all the same. You're worthless.
  9. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    So rather than supporting your position, you're rage-quitting?
  10. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Something else occurs to me.

    This assertion:
    Is predicated on the assumption that the risk due to mother and child by the pregnancy ends at birth. It doesn't.
  11. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Here you go making assumptions again. Apparently you didn't read the entire thread before jumping in. I am no stranger to abusive relationships. My first husband beat me and raped me regularly for the first 5 years of our marriage. One rape was forced sodomization in which he knowingly infected me with a virus that he did not disclose to me that he had. These abuses stopped onlying only when I finally acknowledged that I didn't deserve it , as he had convinced me that I did, and left him to go to a shelter. I was 4 months pregnant at the time. The shelter was then abusive to me, denying me medical care and (refusing to call 911) when I had a stroke because "they didn't know who would take care of my two toddlers while I was at the hospital". Luckily the stroke didn't cause any permanent damage and I didn't lose my baby. I went to the shelter because he threatened to kick me in my stomach with the intention to kill my unborn child simply because he said it wasn't his. This pregnancy btw was the result of him raping me. It was our third child. I was diagnosed with my terminal illness, given to me by him in that forced sodomization, during the course of my second pregnancy. I was at the shelter for two months when I had the stroke as a result of the harassment I received from the staff. So I found low income housing that was taking applications and I made a plan to get in there. It required the use of the vehicle that my then husband had in his possession so I had to trick him into thinking I had forgiven him (he always said he was sorry) so that I could get access to the vehicle. I gave myself two years to be rid of him. And I managed to succeed in 18 months.

    Then in my depression, caused by the myriad of abuses the first husband inflicted on me, I was preyed on by another man who was a sociopath and convinced me that he could love me in spite of my illness. He was so charming and so sweet, at first. Once married he insisted constantly that I was a bad wife for not allowing him to have a second wife since I was defective. He beat my children. Held us in Pakistan against our will for a year, all the while I was not allowed to get medical treatment, and had my life threatened if I dared try to get away. He also intentionally impregnated me against doctor orders to avoid pregnancy because it could kill me by playing mind games with me after disallowing me to take my medication for depression and anxiety; the medications kept my perspectives of him a bit more realistic. He kept me in a state of mental dependency on him in order to control me. I eventually "went so crazy" that I got as sociopathic as him and started playing his games against his mother and convinced her that I had the power of witchcraft and scared her into ordering him to send me and my kids back to America. Where he pursued me and eventually kidnapped our son and took him back to Pakistan holding him there for nearly 3 years. I recovered him with help from the State Department. And even now he emails regularly threatening the lives of me and my other kids if I do not give back our son. My son still suffers nightmares about life in Pakistan and wakes up crying saying his grandmother or his step mother or his dad is going to take him back and beat him again.

    These things, though not in as much detail, have been mentioned earlier in this thread. Perhaps you glazed over those points. So I will assume you were ignorant to the facts. You are not now. So the assumptions that I do not understand mental illness caused by abuse can be laid to rest.

    Given my history, I did indeed consider less than legal options in dealing with the second husband. But I still knew what was legal and what wasn't. Had I chosen methods that were not legal I would have been justified in my own mind, but not by law. I would have gone to jail. And I knew this. And that is why I chose not to do what I had considered many times.

    I am not the type of person that excuses poor judgement that results in someone's life being taken simply because they were unhappy for whatever reason. Would I gain sympathy from the majority of my peers if I had done something to cause the end of my abuser's life? Certainly. Would the courts have determined me to be legally insane and therefore not culpable. I highly doubt it and I would never even claim it as an excuse.

    You are probably wondering, so how does all that affect Neverfly (I doubt it since he is male and that automatically makes him a bad guy in this thread). I disclosed my entire past to Neverfly in the course of our friendship before any dating took place. Even my varying states of mental wellness in the past, as well as the flashbacks and fears I still deal with now.

    He related to my pain through his past experiences and decided that my past does not make me unlovable. In fact the pain we have both suffered helps us to understand each other more intensely than I believe anyone who had never been through any kind of abuse could possibly comprehend. He is supportive of me in everything I choose, even if he disagrees with what choice I make. He never makes any attempt to control me and often withholds his opinion unless I ask for it. I give him the same respect. Neverfly is a man who would give his own life for me if necessary. He is also willing to go to great lengths, endangering his own liberty to protect me from abuse. Most people would call that chivalry. But some in this thread have labeled him a misogynist and abusive to women. I think some people view others in whatever light they choose, just so they can paint themselves out to be a victim or something something.

    Maybe, but inferences are not proven facts, are they? The courts do not accept assumptions or inferences as proven facts of a case.

    So are you suggesting that the article states when she disclosed to her boyfriend that she was pregnant? Please quote where the article states these details.

    you apparently have not read this entire thread and have overlooked my claims all together. Perhaps you should read my words rather than taking the word of others on what they CLAIM I said. And I redirect you to the long paragraphs in the beginning of my response.

    And of course you are making assumptions about the girl again. You are also assuming that the abusive boyfriend will wait 4 years for her to get out. Unless you think abusive boyfriends care enough about their gfs to wait, sexless, for 4 years while his gf serves time for doing what he asked her to do, I find it hard to assume that going back to him would even be an option to her. While those who are abused often do go back to their abusers, they don't always. Usually they just replace him with another abuser, but sometimes, they actually come to their senses as I did, and leave the bastards and avoid abusive relationships from then on out. And yes, I agree with you, it usually requires counseling to achieve that state of mind, but not always. I am not the norm, but I did not require counseling to escape from either of my ex-husbands and have not received any counseling to ensure I do not make the mistake again. I somehow developed the resolve to break the cycle myself. I may not be the norm, and I know I do not represent the majority of cases. But I am an example that counseling is not an absolute must have.

    I truly am clueless as to how you can assume so much and claim your assumptions are supported by the little information given.

    Well your recollection does not serve you well. I cannot speak for Neverfly but I NEVER claimed the one who beat her up was her boyfriend. Perhaps you are making unsupported assumptions again. Perhaps you can provide some quotes to support your claims.

    Now people have been making claims and accusations about what others have said or implied all throughout this thread but anytime one of those accusations is asked to be proven true, no one ever,successfully, backs the accusations up. I have asked you to quote me where I said the things you are claiming I said. Until you provide some proof by way of direct quotes supporting every single one of your accusations against me or retract the accusations you cannot support, I will ignore you for the duration of this thread as one who is intellectually dishonest and therefor has no credibility in the debate. (In otherwords, answer the big fat slanty underlined words in red)
  12. seagypsy Banned Banned

    I don't agree with your presumptuous conclusions about why people identified as they did. Nor do I agree that this thread has proven that the anti-abortion movement is about "putting women back in their place"

    I am sure that "putting women back in their place" certainly IS the motive for SOME in the general debate, but no one in this thread has shown that to be their motives. And this thread is hardly a representative cross section of the vast number of reasons and motivations why people in America hold the positions that they hold. Perhaps if 1000 members had participated you would have a stronger case but when fewer than 20 even vote and less than that explain their motivations for their position you are jumping to wild conclusions based on evidence of the outcome of a thread on an internet forum.
  13. Balerion Banned Banned

    The thing you need to know about some of our friends here at Sci is that they enter conversations such as this with certain preconceptions, and somewhere along the way will invariably trumpet that those preconceptions have been confirmed by the opposition's arguments, with no regard whatsoever to the actual content of the opposition's arguments.

    For example, I have been accused of arguing in favor of racism for saying that I did not find a particular comment racist.

    No, that's not a typo.

    Me: "I don't find that comment to be racist."
    Him: "Why are you such a racist?"

    The self-proclaimed intelligentsia here at Sci has the intellectual depth of a puddle.
  14. seagypsy Banned Banned

    That would seem to be the case. And for the record, I have never witnessed you making a racist remark that I can remember. But then they have labeled me a misogynist as well. And apparently for the reason of being married to one they declare to be a misogynist, or the fact that I don't harbor deep seeded hatred for men as a result of my past experiences. 2 men harmed me, not all men.
  15. Balerion Banned Banned

    I never have made a racist remark. Perhaps I'll look up the threads in question and see if I can't find a couple quotes to send you via PM. At any rate, you just need to be aware that when you get into a conversation/argument/debate with one of these people, you're going to have to endure a great deal of ad hominem in lieu of actual arguments.
  16. Balerion Banned Banned

    I never have made a racist remark at Sciforums. Perhaps I'll look for the relevant threads and send you a link via PM. At any rate, you need to be aware that when you get into a conversation/argument/debate with one of these people, you'll have to endure a great deal of ad hominem in lieu of sound arguments.
  17. seagypsy Banned Banned

    I guess I will have to effectively do my best to avoid acknowledging they exist when participating in threads. James R has advised me to avoid them (because apparently mods are above reprimand) and I too often forget that advice. I must try harder.
  18. Balerion Banned Banned

    Right, because rather than holding mods to the same standards as everyone else, we'll just tell members to avoid them.

  19. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    And yet, your personal experiences appear to have left you ill equipped for this discussion. A this:

    Is why I am perfectly comfortable suggesting that. You claim to have plumbed the depths of depression because of all of this tragedy in your life, and yet you're perfectly comfortable dismissing depression as "...simply because they were unhappy for whatever reason..."

  20. Bells Staff Member

    You are aware that moderators talk and share PM's in the back room, don't you?

    Your horrific past that you have detailed for us several times on this site does not excuse your husband for threatening people (again) on this site.

    You have accused me without basis that I apparently use my past or what you determined to be my "bad life" to get away with whatever it is that I apparently get away with in sciforums. I asked you to provide me with some evidence of that because not once, not once, have I ever said 'I should be allowed to say this to someone because I have had such and such happen to me' or anything along those lines. Not once. And you took it upon yourself to make slanderous accusations and assumptions at me throughout this thread and you did it repeatedly and you also repeatedly and without any evidence to back up your accusation, accused me of using my "bad life" as an excuse on this site.

    So when I again challenged you and the slander you lobbed at me, you then took it upon yourself to PM me to give me some vague reference about how other moderators said this to you.

    You must assume we do not talk at all to each other. Or share information about what we tell members on this site.

    You can imagine their surprise and raised eyebrows when I posted what you said to me with a query.

    You mention James. I have seen James openly flay me in public because of a disagreement I have had with another member, it got so bad once I resigned from this site in disgust before I was asked to return.

    At no time during that horrendous debacle did I ever, EVER, bring up my "hard life" to try to excuse my behaviour during that disagreement with this other member. Nor did that member use the knowledge he has about my personal life against me or make such an accusation. Not once. And even though he and I do not get along, I trust him more than I would trust you or half the other people on this site. You see seagypsy, while this individual and I have had some extreme knock down battles on this site, to the point where the admin had to get involved, not once did it ever get so personal as when you tried to push this battle into being to the point where you commented in the most vulgar way, where you believe my husband preferred to put his penis. And even then I did not try and say "this and this happened to me, so I should be allowed to do this or this".. Quite the contrary. What I did do was to politely ask you to stop commenting about my personal life again and which you openly ignored and disregarded and kept on going on and on with your unproven accusations and slanderous accusations and commentary about my personal life.

    So your accusation and your false assumptions were ridiculous from the outset. Then you went further and said 'I have had a hard life and even I don't expect to be treated differently', yet here you are expecting and demanding to be treated differently because someone stated that your views of this 17 year old girl were extreme.. In fact, it went so far that you are expecting the staff to excuse your husband threatening to harm members of this site, because of your past.

    You have a husband that supports you in your times of need? Great. You are truly blessed. However that does not mean that we can or should also excuse his making threats against other people who post on this site, be they staff members or not. That is why he was banned.
  21. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    You're not really in a tenable position to be making demands such as these.

    First off, I did say it was to the best of my recollection. If my recollection was wrong, then so be it.

    Regardless of whether or not you or your husband said that it was her boyfriend that beat her up neither Tiassa, Bells, nor myself claimed that it was, which was the point that I was ACTUALLY making.

    My point was that you said:
    This was neither an assertion nor an assumption that I made.
    Likewise, neither Tiassa or Bells asserted or assumed this.

    You've somehow managed to get the following exchange:
    Twisted and distorted out of all perspective, and I'm not actually sure what you're trying to do with it here.

    If my recollection was wrong, then so be it. I really don't care, I'm not invested - emotionally or intellectually - in the statement being correct, but if it wasn't said by you or your husband (I really don't care if it was or wasn't) then it wasn't said by anybody. If I'm wrong on this point, then I'm wrong on this point, it really doesn't matter, because being wrong about it doesn't actually invalidate any other thing that I have said, and nothing I have said, apart from the statement itself, rests on it being correct.

    You're making a mountain out of a molehill, and using it as an excuse.

    Instead of complaining about people being dishonest, perhaps you could make more of an effort to get your own facts straight.
  22. seagypsy Banned Banned

    I have not once challenged his ban. So I don't see the purpose in any of your remarks.
  23. Balerion Banned Banned

    I've looked and can't find any threats made by Neverfly.

    Though I do admit, he said enough to get himself banned for flaming and insulting. I just didn't see any threats of violence.
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