Rape, Abortion, and "Personhood"

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Nov 1, 2012.

?

Do I support this proposition?

Poll closed Nov 1, 2013.
  1. Anti-abortion: Yes

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Anti-abortion: No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Pro-choice: Yes

    61.5%
  4. Pro-choice: No

    15.4%
  5. Other (Please explain below)

    23.1%
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  1. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    So her hard life excuses her abusive nature? and I actually retracted that accusation earlier. Nice of you to confirm it publicly. I'm sure my past is far more disturbing than hers, so I am invoking my right to call names, accuse people of being sexist when they aren't and lie to make myself look good, on account of the multiple rapes i have suffered at the hands of a black man, regular physical assaults at the hands of the same black man, having been held hostage by a Pakistani man in a Muslim country for a year, having been forced to watch my children abused by this same Pakistani Muslim man while in captivity, and facing a terminal illness of my own all the while.

    Yet I somehow still manage to not be a misandrist, an Islamaphobe, or a racist.

    Many serial killers were abused as children, many rapists were molested as children or abused in some way, many child abusers were abused themselves, many wife beaters were abused as children. I guess the abuse they suffered as children should excuse their behavior as well and we just try to understand them rather than lock them away and punish them for their appalling behavior towards others. Or, we can treat Bells the same way we expect to be treated and stop making excuses for her obnoxiousness. If her past makes her incapable of objectively seeing the world around her perhaps she is in no mental state to be a moderator.
     
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  3. Bells Staff Member

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    I'm sorry, but you seem to be obscenely obsessed with the thought that I have a hard life to justify applying your apparent hardships to my personal life and personal problems in a bid to attack me via said problems. Then again, you are married to a man who saw fit to attack my son in this debate, so I guess I should not be surprised. But about my "hard life" and your assuming I have one and carrying on that I have been using it on this forum..

    I do not. I have been ill and I am separated. I do not consider that a hard life. I consider that to be life and deal with it. I don't sit there and have a pity party going 'oh this and this happened, oh woe is me'. I move on and deal with it. Nor have I ever used it on this forum. You, on the other hand have used mine and your own to excuse your behaviour. So while I appreciate your constant prattling on about it because it is funny to watch, to the point where you think you feel justified to have a go at my personal life because you think it's hard and because you claim you have had a hard life, you're making yourself sound like a prat in doing so. Suffice to say I do not care what has happened to you in your life seagypsy, perhaps you can stop assuming that my life is bad and trying to use that to attack me personally while bringing up your past hardships as your excuse for your behaviour. And again with the serial killer comparisons.. I have asked you, many many times now to stop attacking my personal life and to stop making ridiculous and slanderous comparisons. You have no right to discuss my personal life on this forum. You are not only invading my privacy, but you are also being slanderous in your approach to what you assume is my hard life. I advised you earlier that you could find yourself liable to what you say on this forum and if you keep going as you are, that could very well apply in that context. So please, move on from my personal life. In short, seagypsy, my personal life is none of your business.

    And Asguard's referring to "if I had a husband" argument is akin to your attempting to use my so called hard life against me. I notice how you excuse his behaviour in that regard. Funny as hell to watch, but it just shows how depraved mind's such as yourselves operate. Asguard has, on previous occasions, advised this forum of what exactly he thinks of women, be they rape victims or pregnant women and he has also advised of what he thinks of abortion, motherhood, abortion, and a variety of other areas of discussion which are, frankly, repugnant if you have even two active braincells. My argument with him on those subjects is also none of your business. So perhaps you could find something else to intrude on?
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,563
    Say huh?

    You have got to be kidding me.
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    23,681
    The study while conducted in France, was reported in the US from the US since it also applied there (really, look at the source it was linked from) - as supported by other links provided. Seagypsy's "late" abortion statistics do not apply to the third trimester only, but from the second trimester, which greatly skews the results when she tried to apply it to third trimester abortions which was what she was responding to me about. And since I was discussing the third trimester, and I linked many studies and reports which contradict hers because the ones I linked applied only to the third trimester, I would say that she is again being dishonest about how she is attributing those studies or she is again confused about the terminology used in this thread.

    Either way, her argument has been firmly put to rest.

    If she wishes to discuss personhood and abortion in the third trimester, perhaps she can find studies that support her argument for abortion and reasons for abortion in the third trimester. Not the second, which is what "late" applies from and which she tried to pass off here so dishonestly.

    Reading.. Comprehension.. Helps..
     
  8. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    It would seem under the circumstances that his gf would abort his unborn child, that he would have no desire to maintain a relationship of any kind with her. He did not imply that threatening to leave her would be for the purpose of maintaining a relationship with her, He implied that threatening to leave her would possibly lead to his retaining his hope for fatherhood.

    But as you say, any type of pressure to stop someone from using or doing to their body anything they choose is emotional abuse, pressure or what have you. I guess you are then against the idea of divorce maybe? because divorcing a man because he decided to put his penis in a welcoming vagina that was not yours is certainly pressure to order the man to use his body the way YOU want him to. OH but yeah, you did divorce him for that. So I guess you are just the same controlling person disrespecting of a man's rights to use his body as he wishes as you accuse Asguard of being.

    And if those criteria denote an abusive controlling person, then I am that very kind of person, because if Neverfly ever exercises his right to augment his body as he chooses, by getting a penis enlargement procedure or a sex reassignment surgery, I will leave his ass in a heartbeat and he can just deal with it. Abusive and proud yep that's me.

    I won't comment on diet demands, but withholding sex for any reason is the right of the individual. Or are you saying that a man's body belongs to his wife and he has no right to refuse sex. That is the same argument that my first husband gave when he denies ever raping me when I refused to have sex with him because I wasn't in the mood.
     
  9. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    23,681
    Okay, since it seems you are hard of understanding.

    I asked you politely to stop commenting on my personal life and making assumption about my personal life.

    It is none of your business.

    At all.

    So while you may feel that you are justified on commenting on my separation from my husband, I can assure you, you are not and never will be. Because it is none of your business.

    And as much as you may feel better about commenting about what you assume is the reason behind my husband's choices, again, it is none of your business. As much as you may get your rocks off on why you think you feel justified or why you believe you know about my personal life or if this is how you get off by attacking someone in such a fashion and making fun of the personal problems you think I have, you are just making yourself sound like a dick. And only opening yourself up to more issues regarding the fact that you are liable about what you post here.

    Do you understand now seagypsy?

    Your pathetic and vulgar attack on my personal life is pretty much you digging a bigger hole for yourself.
     
  10. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153

    LMAO yeah even better, my statistics were from 16 weeks and he challenged them with statistics based on 12 weeks, better indeed.
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    23,681
    Oh, you failed to understand.

    You attempted to apply and misrepresent studies as though they applied for the third trimester, when the statistics themselves, by your own admittance, were from 16 weeks. So good work in admitting your own dishonesty. Then again, after the manner in which you went after my personal life so repeatedly, even after being asked to stop, I should not be surprised that you are the type to lie and misrepresent what you present on this site.

    "LMAO yeah even better" indeed.

    You, seagypsy, are the gift that keeps on giving.
     
  12. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,828
    People, let's just chill out. I think you guys are letting this stuff get the best of you. This thread should have been "locked" a long time ago, simply because it has gotten out of hand. Tiassa, are you going to let this continue? Are you the mod?
     
  13. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    YOU made it everyone's business when you publicly described it. I wasn't even aware your husband had had an affair on you or that you were divorced til you publicly announced it. I guess whatever aspects of your private life you do not want scrutinized you should keep private. Anything you put in the public forum is open to scrutiny. You are making comments about Asgaurd's relationship. So unless you want to retract all your insults about his relationship, you have to roll with the punches when YOU announce details about your private life only to have what you post scrutinized.




    But you feel justified in commenting on Asgaurd's relationship? His relationship is none of your business either so until you stop sticking your nose into other people's business you need not complain when we return to you exactly what you dish out.
    I never implied what his reasons for his actions were. I don't care what his reasons were. I never made any statement suggesting that I knew what his reasons were. I only commented on what he chose to do with his own penis, according to your own narrative. But feel free to prove your little lie by quoting exactly where I stated his reasons for making such a choice were.



    I only know what YOU have reported. I haven't stated or implied anything that YOU did not present in this forum. I am not making fun of your personal problems. I am only stating that your personal problems are not OUR problem and your personal problems give you no right to abuse members of this forum.


    Do YOU understand now, Bells?


    I have made no attack on your personal life. I have only stated that your personal problems do not give you any right to attack someone else's personal life. I have not once said you were a bad person for anything going on in your life. but you have thrown insults at Asguard for his honesty in standing up for his desire to be a father, by merely leaving a woman who would take that hope from him by aborting his unborn child.
     
  14. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    I only failed in that I trusted that Trippy used relavant statistics, since after all the statistics I gave were the exact ones he reported originally.

    "by your own admittence" denotes no dishonesty at all. Wow, by telling the truth we are dishonest now. Sheesh.

    You asked me to stop. Sure. I did it once. YOU brought it up several times after I had already retracted it stating that it was inappropriate for me to have done so. Then Tiassa comes along and does exactly what I had accused. That Bells is allowed to mistreat people because she had a hard life. Get over yourself.

    You know, you are not fooling anyone. Everyone accept those who are blinded by the pity you insist they have for you can see what kind of person you are and how dishonest this debate has been from you, Trippy and to a lesser degree Tiassa.

    Go ahead and delude yourself in your own self righteousness. I wouldn't want to tell you what you can and cannot do with your own psyche.
     
  15. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    Duplicate
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  16. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    Good point. But I doubt Tiassa will lock it. The mods don't seem to be willing to put a stop to Bells when she is on a roll. To close this thread would take away her platform to declare herself a victim beyond accountability.
     
  17. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    Duplicate
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  18. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    Bells, the biggest reason you enter into conflicts of this nature is purely your own fault. Case in point right here. You're a liar. I'm calling you a liar, flat out and directly and I am accusing you of telling lies.
    Why am I doing so?
    Because I never attacked your son in this debate.
    The second part of your problem is that when confronted for your lies, instead of owning up like a decent adult, you attempt, instead to explain them away. You rationalize instead of just being honest.

    What I had actually said will be repeated here:

    There is no attack on your son, there. AT ALL.
    There is a reminder that in spite of the politics you push on this thread that you, too, viewed the UNBORN fetus- as your Son, not a glob of cells.
    He had a brain. A human Brain. The case I have been making all along against late term abortions. The case that you refuse to examine in post 209, 233 and 293. The case that once it has a brain, it's a person. All the while, you were lying about embryo's.


    There is no attack there.

    It really is no wonder you get accused of distorting and yet you deny it- I wonder if you're even aware that you get the wrong idea in your head and no matter how much that's corrected, you refuse to let go of that wrong idea and repeatedly accuse the other poster of claims they had not made. You should address that issue instead of making everyone else suffer your flame wars.
     
  19. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    23,681
    Seagypsy

    It should be worth noting that the only person carrying on about my supposed "victimhood" here is you. I have told you that I am not, that I do not suffer from hardship nor have I suffered from hardship in my mind and I have asked you repeatedly now to stop commenting on my personal life and on my marriage and relationship. Repeatedly.

    And you just do not stop.

    I discussed what happened in the birth of my children as examples to particular points of discussion. That does not mean that you have the right to comment on my personal life in the manner that you have, especially after I have advised you numerous times now that not only is it none of your business, but also because I do not want you to talk about my life or carry on about it as you have and declare that I am using it to get away with whatever in this thread. Not once has that occurred. Not once. So your dishonesty in that regard is again duly noted.

    So, I will ask you again to cease and desist in attacking my personal life and your false, slanderous and misleading assumptions about me and my personal life.

    As for your studies. You misrepresented them and lied about them. That is dishonest on your behalf.

    Perhaps your attacking my personal life is your attempt to hide your dishonest misrepresentation of studies in this thread, who knows and who cares... What I do know is that I have asked you to stop commenting on my personal and marital life. It is none of your business but you just keep going on about it in the most vulgar manner possible. Stop. And I also pointed out how and why the studies you linked do not apply and I also pointed out that you misrepresented them, because you tried to pass them off as applying for third trimester figures when the reality is that the studies were from 16 weeks, which would greatly skew any results of why women get abortions in the third trimester, which was what I had been discussing with Neverfly. In short, you lied and got caught and the result of that is that you try to divert attention from your own lies and attack my personal life in the most vulgar way imaginable even after you were asked to stop.

    You also misunderstood and you are being dishonest about what Tiassa said. Tiassa pretty much told you that the conflict between Asguard and myself is something that goes way back on this site and is none of your business. At no time did Tiassa mention that my personal life excuses the disagreement that I have with Asguard. But I can see that you are attempting to misrepresent that as well.
     
  20. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    This is my response to euthanasia question but since it is off topic I am putting it in spoilers.

    Neverfly can speak for himself, as we do not necessarily agree everything. I do absolutely support euthanasia and assisted suicide. I don't believe in morality so if the intent is to call me immoral, it is meaningless to me and will only serve to make you look good to those who already share your perspective on reality. I believe morality is the construct of a mind deluded by faith in a creator. As far as children being euthanized is concerned, I think it already happens. When a child is badly injured or existing on life support with little hope of recovery, often parents are given the option of removing them from life support, ultimately resulting in the death of that child. I removed my great grandmother from life support because I believed she was suffering needlessly, being kept alive, when there was no hope of medical improvement. Her doctor, who's first name was Jesus ironically, agreed with me that with all they were doing to keep her alive, they were only delaying the inevitable and causing her extreme pain in the process (he said suctioning the fluid from her lungs was known to be extremely painful and it was taking place every 30 minutes or so).

    You ask where I would draw the line on when it is ok to euthanize a child. I think it is a decision that should be reached between parents and doctors, to determine, taking all factors, including parental likelihood to be able to provide continued care, into account. If the parents and the physicians involved agree that there is little to no hope in recovering any semblance of qualitative life; if the child is little more than a vegetable or in excruciating pain that has no hope of subsiding, then euthanasia should be allowed. Should the courts be involved in every case? Maybe, if it is feasible to do so.

    I euthanized my cat because it had a serious terminal illness that had him visibly in pain and suffering terribly.We suspected he wasn't well for a long time but the doctor never diagnosed it until he reached the latest stages of his illness. When told his full list of symptoms and his diagnosis, I imagined the times I had suffered similar symptoms, like severe dehydration (causes extreme pain throughout the body, especially in the head, throat, and muscles., inability to eat (extremely uncomfortable and also causes severe nausea, and starvation), extremely high fever (causes a state of delirium). His doctor said there was no hope for him and that he literally had no more than 2 weeks to live. I imagined having all those symptoms at once, and given the prognosis, I would have wanted someone to allow me to die, to grant me some peace rather than make me suffer another day for no reason other than to spare the feelings of those I would ultimately leave behind. I believe in a horrific state like that, one should have no obligation to anyone but them self, and in that condition it is more likely that all the patient really wants is to stop suffering. I don't believe we have the right to force them to suffer. Adults in that condition obviously, can, assuming their brain is still functioning reasonably, make that decision for themselves. But as parents we are responsible for looking out for the best interest of our child, in spite of our own desires. No loving parent wants to see their child die, No loving parent wants to give up hope that their child will recover. But sometimes doing what is best for them means going against our own desires and letting them have the better of two options. Suffering intensely for a long time only to die before reaching adulthood anyway, or easing their pain by expediting the inevitable.

    I am also terminally ill. I have instructed my family to remove me from life support the minute a doctor tells them there is no hope for reversing my condition to tolerable. If assisted suicide were legal I would likely make arrangements to do that once my children are all adults and I have reached the final stages of my illness. After all it is my own body, I should have the right to end my life if I so choose.
     
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,563
    Mod Hat — Brief notes

    Mod Hat — Brief notes

    I haven't decided how long to let this continue.

    The problem, of course, is that if I trace the trouble back to its point of origin, the solution is obvious, except that it's not really a solution insofar as it will create other problems.

    I wish I could say it was nostalgia keeping this thread open; this sort of argument reminds me of the old days, when people were allowed to tear each other to shreds.

    Part of me wants to make a few cracks here about the value of literacy and the immense damage that stupidity can cause, but that really isn't helpful.

    In the end, one thing I can say is that as a posting member, I am not in the least surprised at the effort some people have put into keeping the discussion focused on anything but the actual thread topic. In and of itself, that makes any number of points better than anything I could possibly say about it.

    As a moderator, though, I'm trying to make a more complex calculation; one that extends beyond simply this thread.

    • • •​

    Do you really want an answer? Suffice to say, there is only so much leeway I can offer certain participants in this dispute as far as ignorance, innocent mistakes, and other such reductions of culpability are concerned. So I'm deliberately trying to leave my green hat out of this.

    Let's put it this way: If I look at the dispute between Bells and Asguard, I'm not going to moderate that because I am very much aware of the history. They're grown-ups who can take care of themselves. Other people, who aren't aware of that history, though, should probably think very carefully before getting involved in that exchange.

    And like I told Bowser above, if I trace back to the origin of the general trouble in this thread, my course of action is clear. Which is exactly why I'm not, at this time, intervening on any disciplinary level.
     
  22. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    3,576
    You said to me:
    "Perhaps those ignorant of the past might find Bells a bit aggressive, but those who are aware of what has taken place in the past at least understand the reasons for the ferocity and magnitude of their disagreement."

    Explain how that statement is not excusing her behavior?

    Your response has got to be kidding me.
    Edit to add relevant quote from me:
    Now, that's an example? You claimed, falsely, that I attacked your son.
    I've shown that to be a completely dishonest representation in post 336 (edit: because of the persistant queue problem, that number may change. Link here- maybe it will work to lead to the post if the number changes...) I've shown others during the course of this thread. For you to accuse others of dishonesty is suspect considering how your replies have been shows to be dishonest several times.
    Your credibility at this point is heavily reduced.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  23. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    I don't even know where to start...

    I mean... Really?
     
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