Rape, Abortion, and "Personhood"

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Nov 1, 2012.

?

Do I support this proposition?

Poll closed Nov 1, 2013.
  1. Anti-abortion: Yes

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Anti-abortion: No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Pro-choice: Yes

    61.5%
  4. Pro-choice: No

    15.4%
  5. Other (Please explain below)

    23.1%
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  1. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
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    Watch your teeth...

    ...The excessive Irony may be bad for your dental health.

    A 1987 study found that three out of every four late term abortions were actually caused by ingorance or ass hattery on the part of thirdparties lack of access to facilities, or lack of education.

    If you want to avoid the majority of late term abortions, the solution is simple.
    Educate your sons on the mothers right to choose, and teach them to support their partners rather than condem them.
    Support your daughters decision, don't condem it.
    Educate your children about the importance of safe sex and contraception.
    Educate your daughters on the importance of making a decision early, and what choices are available to her in the event of an unwanted pregnancy.

    75 to 80 percent of late term abortions (post 16 weeks) are caused by familial pressure not to abort, partners pressure not to abort, difficulty in getting an earlier abortion, or simply not understanding the importance of timing or that abortion is an option. Dealing with these societal problems will remove the need for a great many late term abortions.
     
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  3. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    Let's try the accurate figures, instead, shall we Trippy?
    Link at end.
    Reasons given for Late term abortions
    71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
    48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
    33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
    24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion [Bells said this never happens... Almost 1/4 of late term abortions is done for the exact reason that Bells gave an argument of incredulity.]
    8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
    8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
    6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
    6% Woman didn't know timing is important
    5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
    2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
    11% Other

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy

    Might not have looked that up if you hadn't posted such a wildly high figure- thanks Trippy.
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,455
    Brief Notes

    Cutting out the in fetu. There is a potentially stomach-turning image of the case I cited if you click the link. Essentially, they're removing the "person" from inside the other person, effectively killing it.

    The term "dry-foot policy" is derived from how we used to regard Cuban refugees sailing to our shores. If the Coast Guard picks you up in the water, you go back to Cuba. If you make it ashore (i.e., "dry foot") you get to stay. I'm not certain if the policy is still in effect; the Elian Gonzalez debacle was a specific refutation.

    But, yes, you have it correctly. Birth is the only bright line standard I can figure. One way to look at it is the "Mrs. Fraggle" policy. I understand why men should stay the hell out of the issue, but also note two objections:

    • I'd be happy to stay out of it, but the anti-abortion men aren't going to do that. Without the votes of men who support abortion access, women lose.

    • I am a father of a daughter. At present, she is too young to vote; it is, therefore, my duty to account for her when I vote. However, my parental duty does not stop when she reaches voting age; I will always stand for her in the political arena.​

    The functional problem I encounter, then, is trying to draw a line at which a woman can no longer abort. If purely elective D&X (partial birth abortion) was more common, it is possible I would try to figure another line. But between the twisted fantasies I've heard over time about women who get late-term abortions and the fact that I will never be pregnant, I cannot justify drawing a line at viability, a certain number of weeks, or anything else like that. What is happening (pregnancy) is taking place inside a woman's body; I cannot tell her what to do.

    Oh, I've been through it many times. It is part of what one must expect if they intend to be politically active at any level. It's not that the idea of a D&X minutes before natural birth isn't disturbing, but if we are to work to end the medical practice of abortion, there are other ways to go about it (education, birth control access, &c).

    In the end, harm reduction is a cold, statistical business. Consider needle exchanges, which do nothing to prevent heroin overdoses; the purpose is, instead, to reduce disease transmission between users. Similarly, while some would assert that the fact of back-alley abortionists and witch doctors with herbal abortifacients is no reason to keep abortion legal, there is still a valid harm reduction issue. If a woman is going to abort, she is going to abort. And I think it is much healthier for society in general if those abortions aren't performed with coat-hangers, poison tea, or baseball bats. Or fists. Or stairwells. Or ... yeah. There will always be a way to end an unwanted pregnancy.

    (If I skip the first half of your post, it's because the only places I would disagree are about hairs not worth splitting at this time. To wit, the question of God versus the idea of objective morality is best left for another discussion, and the inevitable fact of idiot judges is a conundrum without a solution as our society presently functions.)
     
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  7. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    See post above^
    Even more figures- the highest figure was: Birth Control! Another thing Bells said never happens. No wonder Bells absolutely refuses to answer my question in post 233.

    25.9% Want to postpone childbearing.[birth control]
    21.3% Cannot afford a baby
    14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
    12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
    10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job
    7.9% Want no (more) children [birth control]
    3.3% Risk to fetal health
    2.8% Risk to maternal health
    2.1% Other
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Reasons_for_abortions
     
  8. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    The highest figure of reaons given is birth control:

    25.9% Want to postpone childbearing.[birth control]
    21.3% Cannot afford a baby
    14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
    12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
    10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job
    7.9% Want no (more) children [birth control]
    3.3% Risk to fetal health
    2.8% Risk to maternal health

    2.1% Other

    In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions.[47]
     
  9. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    The highest figure of reasons given is birth control:
    Reasons given for Abortions-general
    25.9% Want to postpone childbearing.[birth control]
    21.3% Cannot afford a baby
    14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
    12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
    10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job
    7.9% Want no (more) children [birth control]
    3.3% Risk to fetal health
    2.8% Risk to maternal health

    2.1% Other

    In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions.[47]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Reasons_for_abortions

    I find this interesting considering the claims made included that it's not used for birth control. Couple this with my response to Trippy above in post 263.
     
  10. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    1,153
    deleted due to redundancy. was almost identical to Neverfly's post above. His got through first so his will stand.
     
  11. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    This debate (late term personhood vs personhood at birth) is off topic but since it keeps getting addressed. The statistics that Neverfly and I found indicate that late term abortion is mostly elective and only rarely for the preservation of the life of the mother or for sake compassionate euthanasia for a diseased or deformed fetus.

    One may argue, "oh but they didn't know, they were pressured, etc"... but it still denotes electively choosing late in term. There are plenty of times I chose a particular action only to find out after the fact, information that may have led me to choose something different. It does not negate that I chose. And not knowing abortion is available is a cop out. It makes about as much sense as a black person saying they didn't know they could sit at the same counter as white people in a cafe. At least in the USA. And pressure is not the same as force or you would have to say that kids pressured into smoking by their friends were forced to smoke and their friends should be prosecuted or something.

    ditto on any parts of your post that I skipped.
     
  12. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    I gotta say, after reading the figures I posted in two posts above- I'm disappointed in myself.

    I actually gave credit and benefit of the doubt that what the claimants in this debate were saying could have merit or truth to them only to find out they weren't just disputable- they were way off base, totally false, not even close. I really should have taken the initiative to look that stuff up a lot sooner. Seriously, Trippy- Thank you.
     
  13. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    In other words only 2% of late term abortions were reported to be strictly health related.

    Of course this applies to the debate of late term personhood vs personhood. Not to the debate of LACP, but it seems one can not be discussed without discussing the other.
     
  14. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    In other words, only 2% of late term abortions are reported to be for strictly health related reasons.

    Of course this applies to the late term personhood vs personhood at birth debate rather than the debate of LACP. But it seems one can not be discussed without discussing both.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
  15. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    Even if it is only 2%, it doesn't alter the fact that 2% still needs to be able to choose defensively.
     
  16. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    That 6% I find interesting, I wonder what percentage of those bells, tiassa and others would claim are "dead beat dads", guys who don't want kids and leave because there partner becomes pregant. Wonder if we should start calling the 25.9% and 7.9% dead beat mums

    As for the comment about partner not wanting her to abort, you are kidding right Trippy? My partner and I are trying to haw kids, if she changed her mind and aborted our child YES I would "pressure" her not to and if she did that would be it, I would leave her. As seagypsy said at some point both parents do have an input
     
  17. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension?

    Let's see what I said:
    Let's look again at those figures, and relate them to what I said shall we?

    48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
    33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
    8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
    Okay, so here it might have been more accurate to say "Familial pressure" but seriously, if she's not under some kind of pressure, what has she got to be afraid of?

    6% Woman didn't know timing is important
    5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
    48+33+8+6+5= 97% (I said 75 to 80 percent).

    Also, while you were there, did you notice this?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    It shows that abortions after twenty weeks are exceedingly rare and that abortions after 12 weeks 15/155 per 1000 people are unusual.
     
  18. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    3,576
    Nah, it's working just fine. Showing the actual breakdown is much more conducive than rolling it all up into one bundle.
     
  19. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    I think you are misinterpreting the statistics. You cannot just add the statistics that you think will argue your case together. That would only work if adding all the statistics together equaled 100%.

    They don't

    if you add them ALL together they equal 222%. Clearly some women gave more than one reason for abortion. So your statistic is just an error in judgement on your side.

    One statistic that cannot be denied is that only 2% of the reasons given for intentional (I am distinguishing the intent because a choice is made by intent, the women who were not aware they were pregnant or their doctors misjudged the stage of gestation may not have intentionally chose a late term abortion, it may have simply been the only option they had ever been presented given the circumstances) late term abortions were specifically health related. The rest of the reasons varied between convenience, family pressure, and ignorance.
     
  20. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    I considered that, but I was posting from a mobile device which is not conducive to copying and pasting. Besides, I had assumed that anyone that chose to engage me would do so in good faith.

    Or perhaps I have read the study that the Wikipedia article is based on.

    Regardless, my point remains intact. Educate your daughters, stop pressuring your daughters and wives, and make early term abortions freely and readily available, and that will see to the majority of late term abortions.
     
  21. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    isnt it ammusing that its ok for women to pressure there husbands to have kids but according to you its an offense if its the other way around. How often have you herd the term "my biological clock is ticking"? Its concidered to be a RIGHT for women to have a child when she wants to no matter what the partner thinks (hell Tiassa's comment is as soon as you enter a sexual relationship with someone your agreeing to raise a child then and there no matter what) yet the other way around....

    How sexist can you people possibly be?
     
  22. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    I wasn't meaning to suggest otherwise. I was addressing the implication and assumption stated by some, that most late term abortions are not elective and are almost purely to save the life of the mother. These statistics clearly show that late term abortions are rarely done for the sake of the mother's life. That they are more commonly done for reasons of convenience, ignorance, or family pressure. None of which constitutes anything other than free choice on teh mother's part.

    Attributing responsibility for the choice of late term abortions to anyone other than the mother, except in cases of health risk or inability to access(such as financial hardship), and claiming that no woman would make her mind up so late in the pregnancy is just clearly a case of ignorance to the facts in light of these statistics. I am sure any intelligent reader who previously assumed women only have late term abortions for reasons of extreme health risks would look at these figures and change their mind. Even I had my doubts that women would enter the third trimester with no health problems and THEN decide to get an abortion. But the behaviors human beings are capable of never cease to amaze me.
     
  23. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    1,153
    I have no problem with education, and I also read the studies linked to from the wiki. You could have made your point without posting misleading statistics which you could not support. Even by your own method of deciphering 75-80% was inaccurate. If you had posted the 97% that you got from adding I could at least assume you just made a mistake, but instead you demonstrated that you would change what even you believed to be true rather than posting with the intent of accuracy.
     
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