Raising Children Without the Concept of Sin

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Goldtop, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    TLDR the last 3 pages:

    Jan attempts the same mantric fallacies:
    1] ad homs - tries to invalidate the argument by invalidating the arguer, a fallacy,
    2] circular reasoning - assumes the conclusion (that God exists) in all his premises, a fallacy.

    If Jan ever deviates from this pattern, I'll let you know in another Public Service Announcement.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Yes. I can bring you up to speed if you'd like.

    Spoiler: it is independent of God and the Bible - though some people choose to equate them.
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  5. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    There was no insistence on my part.
    Give yourself that credit.

    Actually it does.
    By the way, UFO’s are real.

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  7. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Who chooses to equate them?

  8. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    I think you’re lying.
    I’m sure because you seem incapable of pointing out these fallacies.
    You rely on the fact that the majority of people on this forum deny God, just like yourself, and will believe what you say on that basis.

    Here’s an idea! Why don’t you explain why you think I’m being fallacious?

  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Only in the Abrahamic scripture. In the rest of the world, snakes and topsoil mostly enjoy the same uncursed status as everything else.
    Likewise in societies that have not adopted the Abrahamic concept of "sin" - they have no use for irrelevancies such as the "first sin" or the "first sinner".
    It's called "evolution", and according to modern theory it does not proceed by magic.
    RainbowSingularity likes this.
  10. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    What’s your point?

    Hijacking and attatching names doesn’t make it any less magic.

  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    To remind you of what it is you "remember" - namely, a story you read in a book.
    Your projection of such stories unto the rest of the world is especially mistaken in this thread, which explicitly addresses the large arena of human life that proceeds without the Abrahamic concept of "sin".
    Or any more magic.
    Evolution is not magic, neither are the scientific theories of evolution.
  12. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    How does that help to make your point?

    What is the “abrahamic concept of sin

    Never said it was.
    But little doggy-type creatures turning into modern whales, are.

    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Not via evolution.
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    As you are certainly aware, I draw attention to these fallacies in your arguments regularly. Pretending to be obtuse does not change that.

    Here's a novel idea: try discussing in good faith. Don't try to dismiss an argument based on who said it, and don't assume your conclusion in all your premises.
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Jan Ardena:

    On the contrary, it goes to the heart of everything you post about your religion.

    What your belief comes down to, every time, is a reliance on revelatory knowledge you think you possess about God, about what God wants, about what God demands of human beings, and so on.

    Whenever you are asked to explain how you gain your supposedly certain and infallible knowledge about God, you duck and you weave and you claim the question is irrelevant.

    The simple fact is: these knowledge claims you make are baseless. They are based on wishful thinking and imaginings of your own, at least as far as can be ascertained from anything you have ever posted to this forum.

    The only interesting tidbit that this thread has added to our overall understanding of your belief system is that you're afraid of divine judgment, and afraid of death. It seems that fear is the main thing that motivates you to act in accordance with what you believe is "divine law".


    Bah bowm! Try again.

    Sorry, you don't get to speak for me.

    No. I've stopped jumping through your arbitrary hoops. Believe what you like. It will just fit the established pattern.

    They are you. If we believe the myth, that is.

    Nice try at pretending to be too dumb to understand the question. Maybe take a bit of time responding, rather than hitting "reply" and typing away before you've even read through the post you're replying to.

    Like what?

    Sure. Try Leviticus 20:13, for instance. Did you skip over that the first time I posted it?

    It also says to kill:
    • people who don't listen to priests (Deuteronomy 17:12)
    • witches (Exodus 22:17)
    • homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13)
    • fortune tellers (Leviticus 20:27)
    • children who strike their mother or father (Exodus 21:15)
    • children who curse their mother or father (Proverbs 20:20, Leviticus 20:9)
    • adulterers (Leviticus 20:10)
    • followers of other religions (Exodus 22:19)
    • non-believers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
    • false prophets (Zechariah 13:3)
    • the entire town if one person worships another god (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)
    • women who are not virgins on their wedding night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
    • blasphemers (Leviticus 24:10-16)
    • anyone who approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51)
    • people who work on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15)
    God himself is also a role model in the bible for when it is okay to kill:
    • Boys killed by God's bears for calling Elisha a "baldhead" (2 Kings 2:23-24)
    • God kills 50,000 because they looked into the ark of Jehovah (1 Samuel 6:19-20)
    • God's lion attacks a man who refuses to strike one of the Lord's prophets (1 Kings 20:35-36)
    • God kills Uzzah because he tried to prevent the Ark from falling off an ox-cart (2 Samuel 6:3-7)
    • God kills all the first-born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30)
    • God stirs up the Medes against Babylon, making them kill babies and children (Isaiah 13:15-1
    and so on and so forth.

    You're exempt from these divine laws because you're not spiritually advanced. Is that what you're telling me?

    Do you believe that Jesus' death attoned for the sins of men? If so, why do we still die? Or don't you believe in Jesus?

    Then why make me jump through hoops by pretending ignorance?

    Interesting that you say "dogs". You haven't even bothered to take a proper look at the evidence, have you? What are you afraid of?

    The theory of evolution is a scientific theory. As such, magic doesn't come into it.

    Anyway, thanks for confirming my original statement, that evidence is irrelevant for you.
  16. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    I am aware that you cry ''logical fallacy'' because you are stuck, and in denial of God.

    No y0u don't.
    You simply try to defend your indefensible position, by accusing me of logical fallacies. In this way you shut down, or redirect discussions.

    I always argue in good faith, you have yet to make an argument for me to dismiss.
    You are only interested in defending your atheist position, and you don't care how you do it.
    You have diverted this discussion to it's current state because you cannot address this subject honestly.

    As a theist, I believe in God. I don't conclude that I believe in God.
    As an atheist, for you, there is no God. Those are our fundamental positions.
    I accept that for you there is no God, because it is clear. But you cannot accept that I believe in God purely because for you there is no God.
    Your problem is that you are intolerant.

  17. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    What religion would that be?

    You're talking about your own idea, back when you thought you were a theist.
    Nothing you say relates to theism.

    God is infallible, not me.
    You'd think you would understand this from back in the day when you were a theist.
    Apparently you don't. Probably because you were never a theist.

    Anything that is theistic in content, is baseless to a person who has subconsciously confirmed to themselves ''There is no God''.

    Obviously you are bound to think that, and that is what you think theism is, even when falsely believed you were one.

    This is simply you being angry.
    I feel sorry for you.

    When it comes to pretending to be a theist, then tarring all theists with your brush, I very much do.

    More lies.
    You've never talked about God, or your relationship with, and to God, because you never had one.
    An atheist gives up the human right to such relations, until they come to their senses.

    Is that what you believed when you thought you were a theist.

    What is dumb about my response?

    You mean I should pretend you make a good point, by giving it loads of waffle.
    Pretending is your gig, not mine.

    That says nothing about killing gays.
    Care to try again.

    It doesn't tell me, you, or any ordinary person to kill. It clearly instructs us not to kill.
    Can you find anything that instructs man to go out and kill?

    Where does say, or even imply, that God is a role model.
    Was this part of your personalised doctrine when you pretended to be a theist?

    Are babies exempt from the rules of the house?

    I don't even know what that means.
    I can't get a direct answer from any Christian.
    But I will keep trying.

    You were the one who brought Buddhism into the conversation.

    Of course I have looked into it.
    What you call evidence, isn't evidence.
    Nobody knows that Fido turned into a great big whale.
    That's a fact.

    I disagree.

    What is absolutely clear is that it is irrelevant for you.

  18. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Oh. Em. Gee. I look in 8 pages later, and she's still chasing that same tale!
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Instead of a discussion of the differences, if any, between raising children with or without a concept of sin*, we are left with the same question: why are the overt Abrahamic theists who post as such on science forums fundamentally dishonest?
    The fundie two-step: 1) misrepresent science for the purpose of 2) slandering its defenders and proponents.
    Not just Jan: all of them.

    *A fascinating question, btw. As is the question of theistic vs atheistic religion, the role of religion in a high-tech society, the role of narrative in scientific thought, and so forth. Too bad.
  20. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    I’m a he?

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  21. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Don't be obtuse. I absolutely accept that you believe in God. No one who has interacted with you could think otherwise.

    The error you keep making is that you think that your belief in God means he exists for everyone else. But the fact is it is not a requirement that God be real in order for you, personally, to believe he is.

    And the fact that you simply keep making the exact same bizarre logical errors - dozens and dozens of times - makes one wonder if you're trying so hard to convince us - or convince yourself.
  22. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    No you don’t.
    You accept that I believe in something named God.

    You believe there is no God, which is why you make that statement. You are in no position to state what my belief about God, is, other than your own personal understanding, or more importantly, lack of understanding.

    I’ll be glad to go through those so-called “ logical errors” with you anytime.

    I’ve said many times that I don’t care to convince anyone, and that you should remain atheist until you yourself come to your senses.

    Theist - belief in God
    Atheist - no belief in God
    Common denominator- God.

    I don’t have to convince myself to believe in God. I would, however, have to convince myself there is no God. Once having convinced myself, I would have to maintain that position. It’s hard work being a committed atheist.

  23. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    How should I know?

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