Discussion: Quran detailing stuff impossible to know without modern scientific gear

Discussion in 'Formal debates' started by scifes, Feb 20, 2010.

  1. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Read your own links - they describe the formation of "wave clouds" (in the lee of landforms only) and their common appearance.

    You are trying to make a perfectly mundane poetic description of the ocean as visible to anyone who looks out from a boat in stormy weather, into some kind of evocation of modern scientific discovery.

    The plain fact is that no one, not even a particularly ignorant and obtuse Arab in the 10th century, not even a resident of a culture apparently imagined to be considerably less observant and less intelligent than average fo the species, needs modern scientific gear or the insights of angels from God to notice that the ocean features darkness in its depths, "waves upon waves" on its storm-tossed surface, or dark clouds overhead in times of danger and confusion to mariners. These are ordinary observations, available to the poets and the sailors and the audiences alike.
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    And were there observations as such from these at the time?
     
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  7. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Yet mystery and manifestations
    arise from the same source.
    This source is called darkness.

    Darkness within darkness.
    The gateway to all understanding.

    Tao Te Ching Vs. 1
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Assuming Arabs are of at least ordinary intelligence and alertness.

    I'm trying to imagine an entire culture of people living on major trade routes who hadn't noticed or even heard, in their many trading journeys and far-ranging travels, that the ocean was dark in its depths and often very wavy on top, especially when dark clouds covered all;

    I'm drawing a blank. I suppose it's possible.
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I don't know if there are. I simply wondered if you had read of any such.
     
  10. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    'obstacles'- which tend to be land forms... But they do form on top of Oceans now do they? Where the hell is Amsterdam Island, and Prince Edwards Island? They are pretty much in the frick'n middle of an Ocean! Point being they form on Oceans- secondly if someone was going to 'stretch their hand' I would assume they are standing on something? And lastly they can be dark!

    http://envisat.esa.int/live/brockma...1213_042039_000009442064_00133_30247_5170.gif

    Are the clouds on top of an ocean... Ohhh crap.......sure they are near a landmass but still on top of an ocean (please note the 'red dot' on the bottom left side of the map- in the middle of an ocean)

    No, I'm taking the 'perfectly mundane poetic description' which is one meaning and was probably understood by Arabs and also stating that it fits perfectly with scientific discovery which is another meaning- you or spidergoat have yet to show that the Quran was believed to have only the meaning the Arabs themselves held- when they did infact believe that Quran had many meanings and hidden knowledge.

    And even those Arabs knew that their poetry was advanced enough to contain many meanings...

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    Last edited: Mar 1, 2010
  11. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    I would hardly call this 'wave model'- its more like 'multiple worlds in a layer model'.

    Quoting:

    "layers of land placed one on top of the other, producing parallel planes which do not physically communicate, except through the beings that inhabit them."

    Yeah, nothing like what we are talking about-

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  12. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    But someone meaning to show that the Piraha were inspired by God would make a similar argument to the one you and scifes are using. They would say it's a reference to a mutli-dimensional universe, or a reference to the layered aspect of the atmosphere and under the Earth. I know you would say it's a stretch, which is what I say about the Qurab reference in question here.

    I don't have to show that the Quran could not have more than one meaning, I only have to show that the description in question represents specific facts that could not have been known at the time, not poetry that vaguely and accidently eludes to something we already know.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2010
  13. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    Well you have to this point failed to show 'internal waves' to be known. 'Accidently' is of course is your own opinion.


    The only argument it can make is about a 'multi-dimensional' universe- with layers of earth... That is not a stretch- Why is it a stretch?

    Also note: "Each level presents its own morphology composed of water, earth, trees and animals, varying only in form, size and number."---- Can't be talking about the 'layers of Earth'- a scientific fact.. It is talking about many Earths which are in layers- varying in 'form, size, and number'- which is not known to be scientific at least right now.

    While if we look at the Quran regarding this:

    It is God who created the seven heavens and of the earth the same number The commands flow among them that you may know that God has power over everything and everything is held within the knowledge of God. (Quran 65:12)

    Which is a scientific fact that the atmosphere is in 7 layers and Earth from crust to the core also has 7 layers-- but I know you wanted the Quran to give properties of each of the layers and perhaps even their names in English.

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  14. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    It was scifes's assertion to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and I say he has so far failed.

    The atmosphere is typically defined as having 5 layers, not 7. And it doesn't say the atmosphere has 7 layers, it says 7 heavens, and there is no evidence for heaven.
     
  15. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    What he had to show was that no one could have known internal waves without scientific gear- you have failed to show that people could have- I think its you who failed.

    It is 'typically' defined in 5.... but if you add some detail, then 7 is also correct.

    1. Troposphere
    2. Statosphere
    3. Ozonosphere
    4. Mesosphere
    5. Thermosphere
    6. Ionosphere
    7. Exosphere

    Similarly Earth is usually defined with 3, 4 or even 5 layers, but with detail it can also be 7.

    The Arabic word for 'heaven' and 'atmosphere' can be the same. Go use a English-Arabic dictionary and compare it if you wish.

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  16. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    What's so revolutionary about waves? All waves are obviously "internal" to the water in question. No special scientific knowledge required.

    Furthermore:
    And He decreed them seven heavens in two days, and inspired every heaven with its bidding: and we
    adorned the lower heaven with lamps and guardian angels; that is the decree of the mighty, the knowing One

    41:12

    So, the lowest heaven is the one with stars in it, which is obviously wrong, meaning that the seven heavens cannot refer to the layers of the atmosphere.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2010
  17. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    Lol. So its easy to say that there are waves in the deep ocean? I don't see waves even when I'm swimming.

    The Arabic word for 'lamp' can mean stars... but if you think about it, the higher we go the darker it gets, essentially the lowest heaven 'troposphere' allows us scattered light thanks to its composition- The usage of a lamp is to light something up to see- that is what the troposphere does. Because it has such a high composition (90% of atmospheric mass) the sunlight is scattered the most here- serves the purpose of a lamp. Note in the verse that it says 'inspired every heaven with its bidding'- that is each 'heaven' has its own role to play- which is true none-the-less.

    Anyways, lets not get into everything- I only brought it up due to your link- lets stay focused on the actual topic.

    What is the proof that people could have known that 'waves' exist at deep levels?

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  18. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    There aren't waves deep under the Ocean, so I don't know what you are talking about.

    Also, all the lights that are even refracted by the lower atmosphere come from outer space, so that's wrong too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2010
  19. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    Here you go:
    http://www.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/td2101/li.pdf

    Please look at Table 1- its below figures 3 and 4. So I guess we have proof of internal waves in at least 100 m deep- I'm sure there are studies that show even deeper- but I don't need to waste time...

    So now even if a modern man who has studied science doesn't even know, that makes the argument more compelling.

    I never said that it provides light, I only said it scatters the light which makes things visible- A bulb creates light, but the fuel of that light is electricity which is actually externally provided to the bulb... In our case the sun provides the light from externally- but the light must be scattered- which is accomplished by the troposphere- Space is dark why even with 'Sun' the lamp? Sun is only the source of light, it must be combined with the scattering by the troposphere to actually have visibility- only then do you accomplish the purpose of a 'lamp'- So just like a bulb is a lamp even though the source of electricity is external so can the troposphere be considered a lamp.

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  20. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    So there is no light on the moon?

    If Mohammed had published that paper, or even the introduction, I would be impressed, but he didn't. Imagine if a college kid had to write a paper on internal waves in the Ocean, and he wrote, "There are waves upon waves". He would get a big "F" because he wasn't really said anything. The assumption that this is what Mohammed was talking about is your invention only. A true scientific statement would be precise, because vague statements can be interpreted in almost any way.

    These internal waves to which you refer could not be what Mohammed is referring to, since they are well ordered and not chaotic in the sense that the passage talks about. He can only be talking about waves on the surface, such as that associated with storms, disorder, chaos, and ultimately, disbelief.
     
  21. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    Moon doesn't have its own light now does it? Its reflected sunlight. yet it is considered a 'lamp' in general terms.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lamp
    5. a celestial body that gives off light, as the moon or a star.

    (moon doesn't have its own light, just like Troposphere)

    But can you live on the moon- I don't think you can even breath there without special gear. We can live on Earth without those gears- we require an atmosphere- without the scattering you would have extremely low light levels. Or would you rather have no atmosphere just so you can have sunlight? Give me a break. Not to mention the UV light is gonna give you cancer if you stay there too long if you do take off your gear (assuming you survive :shrug: )

    lol. But at least you now know there are deep internal waves

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    That is assuming if you were in a science class anyways... so again you forget what the Quran actually is... but you demand more from it if it gives you anything of scientific relevance.


    My assumption is well founded on the basis that Muhammad believed the Quran to have many hidden meanings some of which were not known to the Arabs. Your assumption is that it does not, and the only meaning it has is the 'stormy ocean'- you haven't provided any proof for this assumption.

    Waves on waves- and in layers- is actually the most precise you can go without getting into the nitty gritty of the them.

    Again the language is quite the same to describe them- waves by all definitions are waves. No one is saying 'wave' means 'wheels on the bus go round and round'- we're saying it means waves.

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    Last edited: Mar 1, 2010
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    786, Ummmm this sentence reminds me of the Qur'an

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    Oh, I see now, YOU'RE a Prophet too! You've clearly referenced action potentials and the role of sodium, potassium and calcium in neuronal signaling processes and how this related to consciousness! So that when scientists one day do understand how consciousness arises we can go back and say - SEE 786 was/is a Prophet. WOW!!!! Miraculous! And so now we can also leap to the conclusion and know there is a God-head. Geeee it's all so clear and scientific-like. Oh, and most importantly it's the God-head I worship and I get to go to heaven. :bugeye:
     
  23. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    I don't pay extensive attention to my writings quite frankly especially when responding to people who themselves don't have brain

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    Wow but all of that can be logically deduce by the scientific knowledge we do have- Spidergoat just has to show that the same can be done of the internal waves- which seemingly he didn't know existed at deep levels so he himself couldn't deduce them :shrug:

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