Discussion: Quran detailing stuff impossible to know without modern scientific gear

Discussion in 'Formal debates' started by scifes, Feb 20, 2010.

  1. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    I've read it. You still haven't answered how a parable is useful as a demonstration of parallel fact without specific knowledge in the audience.
     
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  3. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    Well why don't you first share your knowledge that this was a 'sermon'.... I think you don't know that the Quran is not like the Bible, or at least is not a 'sermon' like of Jesus.


    Here is the relevance you were asking for. The people can still understand it

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    As for the prophet 'to sound like a fool'- there are many things in the Quran that people acknowledged that they did not understand.... Alif-Laam-Meem- find me the meaning of this

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    Also I've already provided evidence at the very beginning of the thread that people/and the prophet believed the Quran to have many meanings- thus one can not limit it to their 'understanding' in the first place.. So I don't know how your argument is relevant that they couldn't understand it otherwise-

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  5. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Sure, it can be a sermon, a discourse on oceanography, a prophecy for the end times, and a great recipe for kabobs all in the same verse!
     
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  7. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    Now to respond to your photograph ....... suspense......

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    I would like to point out two things

    1. All those 'waves' are besides the slicks that are formed ON THE SURFACE, after the 'slicks' you see the 'waves'.

    2. What you see are PLANKTON that are near the ocean surface...

    The reason the website states 'internal waves' is because THEY KNOW that this is due to internal waves because of the slicks that formed and the wave pattern... What you are witnessing is not internal waves but something that formed due to it- and the only reason we can relate it to internal waves is because we now know why this happens.

    But what a layman is witnessing is simply plankton which are followed by the 'slicks' that form ON SURFACE.... Again this whole thing is on the surface, but because there are so many plankton you see waves....

    If it was so obviously 'internal waves'- Internal waves would have been discovered much earlier- if all they had to see was see these plankton in waves, but it was not.. why? Because all of this is on the surface and that we can see that it is followed by 'slicks' which are also on the surface- the slicks would be the reason for the 'waves' that follow- there is no reason to think these are internal waves without having advanced knowledge of internal waves and how they work to relate this phenomenon to internal waves.

    You are more than welcome to confirm with the website owners, that these are plankton which you are seeing. Not some 'disturbed reflection' of waves.

    Peace be unto you

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  8. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    Are statements now turned into arguments? If you think that laughing at the opposing argument without providing any evidence is great argumentation skills then keep on :bravo:

    Peace be unto you

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  9. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    The point is they look like waves, and they obviously are not surface waves. One must conclude that they are underwater waves, which are visible for whatever reason.
     
  10. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    FYI,
    My side of the debate already won.
     
  11. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    I'm glad that you debate because you want to win.... shows why you were throwing rediculous arguments-

    I hoped you would have discussed to exchange ideas to learn more about something or to look at something from a perspective you may have not known. But anyways, I don't think there is a reason to continue anymore....

    Congratulations on your win :bravo:

    Peace be unto you

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  12. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    Surface waves? They are plankton.. And yes they are on the surface as well. Its a lot of plankton that is moving- so you have a basically thick stack of plankton moving in a wave formation- but they are on the surface too.. The slicks prior to them can explain why they are in the wave formation because the slick themselves are a wave-

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  13. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Do you have any proof, or are you just speculating? Even an uneducated observer could conclude that these waves are internal. It doesn't matter if they were correct or not, they COULD lead to the notion of layers of waves internal and external, leading to the passage in the Quran.

    I also agree with iceaura in that there is no proof that this verse is anything other than a metaphor.

    I do debate in order to learn things, and I did learn about the Quran. You should be happy that this exercise made an atheist read the Quran, at least in part.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2010
  14. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I was trying various arguments, there's nothing bad about that, they were not incorrect, I just found better ones assuming that:

    1. The verse was talking about internal waves.
    2. These waves existed. Could they have been known?

    I did learn about different perspectives and found them lacking in logic.
     
  15. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    Not if the plankton are on the surface.. and assuming yes.. Then I guess Muhammad was the first one to do it, the Greeks never imagined it? And this precise detail got to Muhammad which made it into his book?..... Anyhow, I think the debate has been exhausted to this point- neither you nor I can prove anything further- so I'll say lets end it here.

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  16. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Islam is suddenly not a religion of prosetylization? Curious.

    Clearly, they cannot. Your very point was that the Quran is 'revealing' knowledge that did not exist prior, yet your cited verse is clearly meant as an allegory to conversion via reason. So it seems extraordinarily unlikely that it was not something comprehensible to them.

    Proof, please. Which things?

    'Many meanings' does not encompass "meaningless". This particular argument has run its course: there was nothing magical or inaccessible about this 'revelation'. The thread is done.
     
  17. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    Islam is a religion.. Quran is a revelation.... get those two things straight.. I've already given evidence for multiple meanings and some things of which there is no known meaning.

    I don't need to repeat myself about the many meanings of the quran.


    I gave you an example. Did you skip that?

    And I never said 'meaningless'- you need to read the discussion from the start because quite clearly you don't know what I'm talking about.

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  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Except that the precise detail is all made up in your head. There's absolutely nothing novel in that verse. Nothing. If anything this debate is a classic example of how a person who wants to believe in something badly enough - will.
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That is the only way we could possibly twist the Quran's words into anything referring to these "internal waves", as well.

    As far as the plain wording, it describes a scene familiar to anyone familiar with the ocean, famous in poem and song and story, for thousands of years.
    Even taking your "evidence" at your assigned value, that is no argument - you finding ways to interpret Quranic verses as somehow also referring to this or that scientific discovery is not at all the same thing as those verses "detailing stuff impossible to know without modern scientific gear". You, for example, didn't know what they meant until supplied with the info by modern science.

    Rather than the Quran supplying you with "detailed stuff" you could know no other way, we have science supplying you with new possibilities for interpretation of the Quran.
     
  20. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    This is true. It all depends on what one believes about the Quran, which provides perspective. For example I believe that it was intended to include all the meanings (you don't)- that is why I actually don't use it as proof for anything, but I still like it as a topic of discussion.... simply because I like to hear other perspectives. Although this 're-interpretation' of the Quran through the lens of science utilizes the words of the Quran itself- I don't see them drastically changing anything- it is simply a new 'perspective' which doesn't deviate from the apparent reading of the Quran- although that is how I see it, while you don't....

    Anyhow good day everyone

    Peace be unto you

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    Last edited: Mar 17, 2010
  21. scifes heckle the snobs Valued Senior Member

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    it is not.
    yet it is in mohammad's book.
    was mohammad stupid enough to leave it there if it didn't make sense?
    why is it there then?
    doesn't it make perfect sense to us here of the 20th century?
     
  22. scifes heckle the snobs Valued Senior Member

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    way to go:bravo:

    stating simple logic...simply.

    it's a bit similar to my psychology breather in the debate
     
  23. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    So, is the argument now that internal waves are an illusion that happen to be real?
     

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