Questions about differences in atoms?

Hello,

We consider same atoms differently by their isotopes or by bondings etc. However, Can atoms vary in size and charge due to some influences on them? Will you pls tell me:-

TO PHYSICS PEOPLE:-

1. Can same atoms vary in size or shape?

2. What can influence size and shape of atoms?

3. Will neutrally charged atoms be different in size and shape from
same charged atoms or ions--means can Ca, Ca+, Ca++, Ca+++...be
different from each other in their properties?

4. Will bonded atoms in any molecule or in multi-molecules can be different in size and shape that same atoms in free state?

5. Can keeping two substances in close contact to each other alter the size
and shape of their constituent atoms?

ALSO TO BIOLOGY PEOPLE:-

I: Can it effect differently to us, if just size and shape of atoms are
different in us due to various interactions, contacts, ionizations
etc.?

II: Can we have different forms of atoms, Ions or molecules of same atom
or of same molecules which are different in their size, shape, charge
etc...i.e. if Na, Na+, Na++ or Ca, Ca+,Ca++, Ca+++ etc.? If yes, can
these effect differently? If yes, how measure of blood level of any
substance, say Ca,Ca+,Ca++, Ca+++ as just Ca levels can be true
picture of that substance?

II: How we get different effects by ingestion of different salts inspite
their atomic constituents are same but different in quantity, as our body will be using then in their ionic form not in origional form?

III: Do we get different charged atoms or ions by absorption or in some in-body chemical reaction?

Best wishes.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

I found above relevant link to this topic. Pls reply.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

http://van.hep.uiuc.edu/van/qa/section/New_and_Exciting_Physics/Inside_the_Atom/943245785.htm

atoms engaging in a molectular bond will be more oddly "shaped", as thier orbiting electrons cloud will be shifted closer to the other atom's nucleus due to the charge attraction. They still orbit their own atom, the orbit is just unbalanced in the direction of the second atom.

Biologically, differences in atoms will result in differences in bonding, which will effect chemical reactions. however, most often ions, etc are unstable, and when placed in a natural environemnet, will degrade back to thier stable state.

I can't quick understand Biology quention II b. (the second II). As for three, the answer is both.


A glas sof water will be mostly H2O. however, some of it will have broken down, and become 1H+ and 1OH-; so that glass of water is both a pure nutral PH substance, and also the most pure base and the most pure acid; all mixed up together.


edit: oooh, good find with the above link - yes, often electrically unbalanced ions will end up with larger orbital shells; sadly, I forget the theory as to why. It's been a long time since Organic Chem.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

river-wind,
Thanks. Atoms size changes due to many factors as is indicated in the quote of my 2nd post. I want to understand whether our body have many types of atoms in different size. Can those different sized atoms produce differenciating effects in our body? If yes, in blood tests we measure as total atoms/ions (Eg; Ca, Na, K etc.) but not as per their sizes or ionic forms? Why??

 

I'm afraid you're grasping at straws with this whole line of questioning.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

The reason why we don't test for sizes is because the slight difference in size of individual atoms or ions has no effect on biological processes. Therefore it's of no importance and testing for such would be a waste of time and resources.

 

I'd guess that it would be easier to test for charge then for atomic size...and for the same reasons that electrical charge is easier to test for, it would also have a more direct effect on chemichal processes.

But I don't really know.

 

It made me bit surprised by reading that slight difference in size of individual atoms or ions has no effect on biological processes. There can be substancial atoms of different size and charge in our body ad difference in size can be substancial(as indicated in link I provided). Can't such change in size lead to change in orbital distances from the nucleus. Electrons can be far or near to nucleus. Does such change will not change energy levels on absorption and emission?

Whether different compounds or salts give different sized atoms or ions on disassociation?

 

The above quote indicate substancial change in size of atoms.

 

Yes, I looked at the table. That's interesting, by the way.

But the main thing to remember here that what we're concerned with the permeability of the different body cells to the different substances that pass through them in order to sustain metabolism and to excrete waste products from that metabolism.

The cells are already structured so that the necessary chemicals like salts, sugars, lipids, etc. pass through. The largest they deal with, by far, are the huge molecules that make up hormones. When you consider their tremendous size compared with something like a simple sugar or even simpler salt compound, I believe you can see that the physical diameters of individual atoms are insignificant.

 

Sizes of constituent atoms in salts, sugars, lipids or protiens can also vary due to applied forces by their interaction with many body substances. Accordingly, It can give a significant effect. I think charge is also differenciated with the change in size. Moreover, we are also using energy released by disassociation of substances and molecules or loosing by association of these which can vary as per the size of constituent atoms in them. How changes in sizes not yet considered as significant is surprising?

 

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying.

Let me try this way and see if it helps you see what I've been trying to explain. Without even knowing the specific details of the exchanges that take place, one can visualize the cell membrane as a wire mesh grid. The spacing of the grid wires are large enough to pass ALL the chemical compounds necessary in order to sustain life. (It will also pass many other that we wish it did not, but that's the way it is.)

That spacing is already sufficient for every sized atom and molecule needed - and we know that because it works - so what would be the point in trying to measure the physical size different atoms? Certainly they will vary with different compounds depending primarily on how tightly the shared electrons are bound, BUT we already know that everything that needs to pass WILL pass. As I just said, any compound, regardless of it's size, that is needed for life can get into and out of the cells.

So again, what would be the point of knowing all those different sizes?

 

Light, Passing atoms into cells is different aspect. Still I am not sure whether active or passive transpotion of atoms or molecules of enlarged size can be the same as of neutral atoms or molecules. I am considering passing of atoms which are different in properties/charge due to their different sizes.

Whether energy levels due to changes in orbitals by the change in size and changes in magnetic field will happen or not on change in sizes of atoms?

 

What will be the electron's orbital positioning on "absolute zero" and what will be the size of atoms?

Whether above above "absolute zero" causes electrons to change their positionings and atoms to change their size?

 

As far as I understand it, different cellular mechanism work different ways. Many of the uion channels would not work with uncharged atoms, because, of course, thats not how they work. It takes the 2+ of the ion to activate the channel.

So yes, you could say that size makes a different as to what atoms are passed, but only in so far as it is correlated with their ionisation.

 

The above link indicates that both ioninc and non-ionic conditions can influence the size of atoms. I think that, change in size of atom by any mean should also change its charge or energy levels making it different. How we consider all similar atoms & molecules present in our body as same, is bit surprising.

 

Well, to put it bluntly, your kind of missing the point. Yes, atoms are effectively slightly different sizes due to the effects of surrounding atoms or their own ionisation states.

BUT- it is the change in charge that changes the atomic radius, due to the loss of electrons. Change in charge comes first, not change in atomic radius.

We consider all atoms and molecules in our bodies the same because if you take any atom of calcium in your body, and ionise it to +2, it will have the same properties as any other Ca2+ ion in your body. The same. No difference. Now if you have one of them in solution, and one in a crystal, yes they will have slightly different atomic radiuses, but I cant see that this makes any difference to what I am trying to say.

 

guthrie, Thanks. It is bit surprising that all atoms in our body can be same in size inspite they are exposed to different external influences. Cant some exitation or some variation in location of electrons in atoms at sub-shell level due to surrounding influences be possible without emission of photons or electrons?

What decide motion of electrons & size of atoms at "absolute zero" and above it? More the temp.or external influences more can be the motion resulting into mor exitation an increased size of atom. OK??

It looks to me that external surrounding influences effect electrons locations and size of atoms above "absolute zero" which can also effect charge of atoms and in body we have many different sized atoms and molecules Otherwise how different salts with similar constituents could influence/effect differently?

 

No variation of energy levels in electron shells can occur without emmission/ absoprtion of photons. Thats the whole point of quantised energy levels, the electrons can only occupy certain levels, with gaps between them. A continuum is not possible, and would lead to a completely different kind of physics.

 

guthrie, yes but that should also match with "size of atoms", that there can't be variations in electron's locations and size of atoms below the level required to emit photons or electrons effected by external influences. Whether such thing also happens or not?

What will happen to the size of atoms and exicitation to electrons, if continious external influence below the energy required for photon/electron's emission is there on any atom?

 

There are many ways to test the level of different atoms in blood/bodies. Some of them take the charge of the atom into account.