question 4 those who follow and know the bible

IHVH--

You're making even less sense these days than you did in the past. Stick with thunder and lightning and smoke and the threatening-people-with-death thing.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)

 

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Nuh, he's definitely improving, and is wonderfully unpredictable.

But it is unfortunate about the texas idiot though.

Thank God for atheism.

 

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I suppose I'm running from a bad presupposition. Acting on the pro-Texas remark as an apparent juxtaposition, I'm left wondering what the mention of Clinton means. After all, it's exactly why I'm not upset with Maestro Bill: he's behaving normally; it means we had a president who was in tune with the national spirit.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Hi J,

As a president it would have been nice to have had someone brighter than a C average student, even at harvard. And certainly when he had everything going for him, very wealthy family, limousine to take him to school every day.

Unfortunately I work with too many graduates who aren't particulaly bright. Managing to scrape through acadaemia doesn't mean he is presidential material.

 

J,

Since they are all theists and hence basically irrational, I don't find any of them aceptable.

 

IHVH--

You're making the same assumption Christianity does: that humanity is the apple of God's eye, so to speak. That the Universe was created expressly for human beings, and that all this extraneous space is either wasted, or something we're supposed to turn into a toxic dump.

Once we get past that assumption, we see that God has little concern for such petty notions as who is the President of the United States.

But, in the context of George Dubya and the next four years, I must say that the invocation was nice, since Christians essentially admitted the coming mess will be their fault.

But if God gave a rat's ass about American politics, Reagan would have died in a Hollywood production accident before he could put his greedy hand on the Bible and lie to Congress about his friends.

But, apologies around, and especially to our topic poster; I have no idea how we arrived here. Oh, that's right ....

thanx,
Tiassa

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Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)

 

I don't have much time but here is a response to Cris' comments...

"Vinnie, now you know you shouldn’t have said that. I’ll just state the obvious then."

Cris, I did state it would open up a can of worms. I anticipated your response.

"An omnipotent and omniscient god cannot be forced to do anything. If he truly created the universe and has a universal plan then everything that happens is according to his will. If he is so clever and can foresee everything why does he create a plan where punishments are needed. He punishes and kills because that must be part of his plan. This contradicts omni-benevolence (only does good). Creating a plan when infinite alternatives are available, and including punishment and killing, is sadistic and evil."

We moved from 'Misconstruing the Bible 101' to 'Misconstruing God's Character 113.' I think your intepreting "omnipotence" inaccurately as it generally has been in the modern world. God told us he cannot lie. He Himself Has said He has limits.

"An omnipotent and omniscient god cannot be forced to do anything."

There must be something forcing God not to be able to lie. Maybe his own nature/essence? Also, by "forced" I implied he had to do what being God requires Him to do. Being holy and just God must sometimes exercise judgement. He himself designed the way the world works and what consequence will occur for doing this or that. Tis the way the world he made works.

"If he truly created the universe and has a universal plan then everything that happens is according to his will."

Maybe according to your god's will but not according to mine. God gave us free will. We have the ability to disoebey Him. It is God's will that none should perish but this is not the case. Clearly what God wants doesn't always occur. Given the nature of free will this isn't to hard to rationalize.

"If he is so clever and can foresee everything why does he create a plan where punishments are needed."

The basic idea here is that God is a God of love and love requires choice. We have the ability to choose good or evil. Without choice the true love that God wants is impossible. If he wanted robots programmed to do everything he ordered he would have created them. Also, who said God forsees everything? I tenatively believe God does see and know the future exactly but many Christian theists argue otherwise. Open View Theists are just one example. I am trying to give that view a deeper look. I wish there was like 34 hours in a day

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"He punishes and kills because that must be part of his plan."

There is a differnece between God's perfect will and God's permissable will so I will not argue this. God's perfect will is that everyone will be saved but this clearly isn't going to happen. God apparently has to improvise.

"This contradicts omni-benevolence (only does good)."

If you consider punishing sin to be evil then thats an accurate assessment of the situation. I find that view to be highly absurd. I tend to applaud police officers who arrest murderers, thieves, rapists et cetera. Aslo, God is the standard by which what is "good" is judged. Calling God good is like calling an apple fruit. Its an analytical proposition which means its based upon the definitions of the words used.

"Creating a plan when infinite alternatives are available, and including punishment and killing, is sadistic and evil."

This is clearly your opinion. Once again God wanted a real world in which true love is possible. We have been given free will which means evil and suffering will occur in the world. And what is your justifications for categorically asserting an infinite number of alternatives were avaliable. I have to believe that even if other alternatives were available, something I am not totally convinced of, this is the best one as it is the one God chose. The argument goes like this.

God is perfect.
That which God creates is less than God.
That which God creates is less than perfect.
That which God creates is imperfect.
Could God have made a world different in which apples are pink and oranges are yellow? Maybe but I think the idea of making us in his image with the ability for real choice dictates some type of suffering will occur. Some argue that a "perfect" world is impossible. That may be the case but I personally trust God's judgement that making a world with creatures that have free will and may use it to do harm was worth the risk.

Peace,
Vinnie

 

Vinnie--

Read Genesis again.

God lies.

And also suffers from denial, from the look of things.

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thanx,
Tiassa

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Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)

 

Vinnie,

So you think you are pulling my strings huh? But Vinnie we have a not had a battle for ages and I have missed you so much, so why not throw you the line I knew you needed.

Omnipotence: All powerful; Unlimited power.

Christianity has defined its god to be omnipotent. If you assert that he has limits, no matter how minor, then he cannot be omnipotent. Which is it to be, is he omnipotent or isn’t he? Either choice you make I can show the absurdity of Christianity.

If he is omnipotent then he is not being forced, he is making deliberate choices. E.g. he is punishing and killing because he has made that choice. As you say, he defined the parameters of his universe, and he defined them in such a way that he knows he must be destructive. Such deliberate actions are contrary to omni-benevolence.

If he is not omnipotent and now finds that he must punish and kill then he is simply incompetent for creating a flawed design.

This makes absolutely no sense. If your god knows the future with infallible certainty (omnisceince), then the future is predetermined and man is impotent to change it. The claim that man has free will is false under these conditions.

Look at it another way. Your god defined the initial parameters of the universe. He would then have been able to look ahead and see how it turns out. He would be able to see all those that would follow him and all those that would disobey him. They had no choice because their actions were predetermined by his initial parameters. If he then decided to proceed with this plan then he has effectively selected one group of people to go to heaven and the other to go to hell. Humans had no choice in this. Human free will is a complete illusion, if your god is omniscient.

So which is it, is he omniscient or isn’t he? Either choice you make I can show the absurdity of Christianity.

Yup without human choice and free will your god is meaningless and impossible.

I think you missed my point. If your god defined the universe so that people needed to be killed by him then I assert that he cannot be omni-benevolent (can do no harm and can only do good). Even today many question the wisdom of capital punishment and talk of rehabilitation or therapy instead, the more difficult option. Any way you look at death it is the ultimate harm. If your god were truly omni-benevolent then he would have found another way to correct the wrongdoing.

The remainder of your post depends on human free will, which cannot exist if your god exists with the properties assigned him by Christianity.

Take care
Cris

 

"Read Genesis again.

God lies."

Verse or verses, por favor?

"So you think you are pulling my strings huh? But Vinnie we have a not had a battle for ages and I have missed you so much, so why not throw you the line I knew you needed."

I fell for it hook, line, and sinker eh?

"Omnipotence: All powerful; Unlimited power."

By all powerful if you mean God is powerful enough to tell a lie then I have to say God is not omnipotent in that sense. The problem is that if God can't lie he is not powerful enough to to make it possible for Him to be able to lie. If he can lie this means he can't be able to make it impossibe for him to not be able to lie and we are brought around to the same type of questioning again. I think I said that right. If not I'm sure it will be corrected.

I'm pretty sure, traditionally, omnipotence has never been understood in the manner you suppose.

"Christianity has defined its god to be omnipotent."

Christianity is made up of Christians with various views. General statements of that nature show signs of intellectual laziness

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"If you assert that he has limits, no matter how minor, then he cannot be omnipotent. Which is it to be, is he omnipotent or isn’t he? Either choice you make I can show the absurdity of Christianity."

The most accurate way I can describe it is: God can do anything his own nature doesn't prevent him from doing. I simply refuse to play the omnipotent "word game" with you. Psuedo-questions like, Can God create a bigger rock than he can lift?" will not do much to help your case either. From my readings, I believe questions like that are psuedo-questions and have no true or false value.

"If he is omnipotent then he is not being forced, he is making deliberate choices. E.g. he is punishing and killing because he has made that choice. As you say, he defined the parameters of his universe, and he defined them in such a way that he knows he must be destructive. Such deliberate actions are contrary to omni-benevolence."

Once again, thats YOUR definition of omnipotence. Omnipotence means having unlimited power, authority, or force. You seem to assume omnipotence in Christianity means God is all powerful and he can do anything, even lie. See my first paragraph. "First, Omnipotence has historically been understood as the ability to perform any task consistent with His character and essence. (At least that's the classical definition/understanding of it)."

"If your god knows the future with infallible certainty (omnisceince), then the future is predetermined and man is impotent to change it. The claim that man has free will is false under these conditions."

Thats false. If (and this may be a big if) God knows the future infallibly, this does not violate free will. He would simply know where are free will choices took us. It is only predetermined because God knows where our free will choices will take us. Genesis one tells us that the Christian God transcends space and time.

Just to let you know, I am anticipating another question. If you ask it I'll let you know

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"If he then decided to proceed with this plan then he has effectively selected one group of people to go to heaven and the other to go to hell. Humans had no choice in this."

I wouldn't really disagree with that from that point of view but the people still have free will. Your own words imply that. God just chose to let the show go on. So in that sense he predestined things but humans still have their free will. To be honest, the Bible kind of teaches both predestination and free will. Thats why I believe in them both. You actually gave me something really good to chew on. Note that it is actually strengthening my views

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"So which is it, is he omniscient or isn’t he?"

In my opinion he is but I am not too dogmatic. I'm not in a position to defend the other side though. That you would have to take up with someone else.

"I think you missed my point. If your god defined the universe so that people needed to be killed by him then I assert that he cannot be omni-benevolent (can do no harm and can only do good)."

Then I say say substantiate your assertions. Define "good" and "bad" moral wise and show me how an action of God can be classified as bad. Prove him not to be omnibenevolent. As I have stated, by very defintion the Christian God cannot perform any action less than good.

"Even today many question the wisdom of capital punishment and talk of rehabilitation or therapy instead, the more difficult option. Any way you look at death it is the ultimate harm. If your god were truly omni-benevolent then he would have found another way to correct the wrongdoing."

Here you state you know that there is better way than the one God chose. "He knows this to be infinitely true because with his infinite knowledge he posits it to be infinitely so. If we are ever in the same area I'd like to see the holes in your hands

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You are entitled to your opinion but hopefully you do not consider your opinion of what God should have done to be a valid argument against xianity.

Peace,
Vinnie

 

IHVH--

'Tis not for me to forgive, but for the LORD alone.

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Do you have any idea how large this Universe is?

thanx,
Tiassa

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Vinnie--

Genesis 2:

Genesis 3:

and one more from Gen. 3

Two notes on death:

1) God did not execute Adam and Eve.
2) I see no mention of Adam or Eve being immortal; death was a looming reality for them as it is for any living creature. In fact, Genesis 3.23 indicates that Adam and Eve were mortal.

Thus I conclude that the Serpent was right when he advised that Eve would not die. (I remind here that certain "heresies" were only heretical because they noted that the Serpent was the only truthful character in Genesis.)

God did not enforce his own promise in Genesis 2.17.

In other words, what God said did not come true, by his willful choosing.

God threatened and did not carry out the threat.

God backed out on his own promise.

God lied.

One thing God was right about, though: he is a jealous God.

I guess God lied again when he said he didn't lie. Consistency, I suppose, counts for something.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited January 30, 2001).]

 

Vinnie,

You read the bible, and yet remain ignorant of the fact that the god of the bible is an admitted liar? Is it really possible you could have overlooked the following verses?

<font color="red">1 Kg.22:23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Chr.18:22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.

Jer.20:7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.

Ezek.14:9 And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

2 Th.2:11 For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.</font>

But perhaps you were just too mesmerized by these verses:

<font color="red">1 Sam.15:29 The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent.

Tit.1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.

Heb.6:18 It was impossible for God to lie.</font>

Which is it? Does God lie or doesn't he? Somebody is lying here - that much is clear enough. Could it be the unfortunate prophets who were deceived by God? If so, how can you trust anything that is written in the bible?

~Emerald

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

 

Vinnie,

A short post for the moment.

OK I see that you are not sure if your version of god is omniscient, that makes you a moving target and difficult to argue against. But Catholicism defines god as omniscient and I had assumed that all Christian sects accepted these basic assertions. I am not worried about being wrong on this.

I’ll take your ‘if’ for the moment. Let’s say that a god was omniscient or perhaps let’s even consider a clairvoyant person. I think that any way you view this if someone or something knows the result of a future action then that action has been pre-determined. I cannot see any other explanation. Under these conditions free will cannot have any meaning since they no longer have any freedom to do anything other than what the future says they will do. Doesn’t this hold true even if the god does transcend space and time? And what does that mean anyway?

I’ll come back later on omnipotence. And I hadn’t intended to quote foolish arguments like can he make a square circle or a married bachelor, or lift the heavier rock etc.

I think that Catholicism assigned its god the properties of omnipotence and omniscience to overcome certain other key objections that arose in the early centuries. But in so doing I believe they cornered themselves into some paradoxes. I believe a god without these properties (in their entirety) could be more believable but then I don’t think it would represent a Christian god. I wasn’t being lazy in my assertions I had simply assumed that all Christians accepted these basic properties.

More later.

Take care
Cris

 

A question just occurred to me.

Who, exactly, is God talking to? Himself? Who is "us"? Would the presence of the full-blown Trinity imply that God already knew the formula had run afoul, and that he would, at some point when he felt like it, have to make an appearance?

Ah! The joys of literalism.

thanx,
Tiassa

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Wow. The Bible is contradictory. It teaches God cannot lie and also demonstrates him lying. I guess my faith is in error.

Is that the response you were looking to get?

All of those are reconcilable. I am sorry but I don't treat the Bible as a 20th century legal document as did lots of fundamentalist Christians. The joys of literalism do not pertain to me. Proper Biblical exegesis in its historical context is more important than the "plain" occam's razor meaning to me.

Why must Adam's death mean physical death? What exactly happened at the fall? Maybe Adam did "die" that day.

As far as how God decieves the wicked I'd check out the thinktank. www.christian-thinktank.com

The halllway of questions has something about that...

Its 5 in the morning so if this makes no sense ignore it.

Buenos noches!

Peace,
Vinnie

 

J,

Yes your style does reflect the chat room mentality where there is little time and the messages need to be very short. There is rarely time to make clear points of view. I find chat rooms totally dissatisfying and extremly shallow.

Here there is almost endless time to write your thoughts, revise them, and make a clear and convincing argument. And I think you know this. Why not take a little more time with your posts. I think you will gain more from the experience and so will everyone else who post and read here.

In friendship
Cris

 

Jehovah,

You might want to consider gender-appropriate epithets to hurl at Tiassa, if you're going to hurl them at all. Or you might want to consider the fact that your insults make you appear less competent as a debater, and dispense with them altogether. Just a thought...

Emerald

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An ye harm none, do what ye will.

 

Jehovah,

Your comments don't seem to add any value here. Why not follow Emerald's advice, and perhaps even try another more apropriate BB if there is such a thing?

Cris

 

I seem to have upset someone.


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Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet. (Khaavren of Castlerock)