Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by Syzygys, May 14, 2007.
It is just you.
The harm is done to the rubber/ plastic parts, not to the engine...
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First off its not Stupid and second it is NOT Extremely Dangerous , You do not add the whole can of acetone to the gas tank of the car . you add 3-OZ'S or 1/4 cup full per 10 gallons acetone is not dangerous to add to gas as 90% of fuel cleaners have it in it to clean fuel deposits off injectors and it does not cost more then gas like you state. You can buy a gallon of acetone for 3.99 to 5.00 and it lasts 6 months or more so break it down its about .20 cents a tank of gas my 2003 lincoln navigtor got a max of 18 miles per gallon till i started using acetone 8 months ago now its getting 26 so wheres the danger in this??? the danger is to all the fuel companys rapping us at the pump
As I said in post #61, the danger is to the rubber parts. Here is the test from a guy who tried it:
"I saw this about 3 months ago on another site. and I decided to test the theory of acetone on normal fuel line. I used 3/8 fuel line from auto zone. I hooked up 2 4 foot pieces of fuel line to a basic uni electric fuel pump avail at auto zone for 12.99 to recycle mixed 87 gas/and acetone out of a bucket for 3 days straight. After the test I left the fuel lines to dry for a day. I cut the fuel lines open and what do you think I saw? The fuel line went from 3/8 to about 1/32 in that short of a time. I would highly recommend not using acetone in your car."
"Actually, racers, and performance vehicle enthusiasts have known about additives of this type for a long time. The recommended one is Toluene, which tends to be the most common ingredient in a lot of Octane boosting fuel additives on the market(Higher octane can give more power, hence, more distance per quantity of gas). Here's the Gasoline FAQ. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Long Live FAQs. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
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Another guy: (although he is from the government)
"This type of info has been around for a long time, I test fuel for a living (government lab) and when I showed my boss at the fuels lab the article he laughed. Things like this have been passed around for 50 years and no one has ever shown it helps mileage.
Acetone is used as solvent, you may clean some crap out of gas tank, but it will only end up in your fuel filter.
You could also destroy other electronic sensors and it will certainly screw with the ECU and Oxygen sensors, newer cars may not even run on it.
Acetone also carries a lot of static as it travels, if your going to pour it any distance I would get good grounding straps as it tends to flash real easy."
here I have found something better: Marvel Mystery Oil
"...my MPG improved. Before MMO, I would get high 20's with my average being 30.35 MPG. With MMO I would get mid to high 30's with my average being 34.09 "
This is on a bike, but that is still 10+% increase in mileage...
Most carbs on motors nowadays have teflon fittings in them. Not sure what acetone would do to teflon. The problem I see is that you may not increase your compression ratio but the fuel will burn much hotter and faster resulting in more force generated within the cyclinder. You may burn out the valves or blow a head or two. Watch your oil, water, and temp. Let me know how it goes...smile.
I'm considering altering my box-shaped air filter for my vans' engine, to act also as a container for acetone or xylene. That way, as the air rushes into the running engine, fumes are collected and fed into the running engine, to extend the fuel mileage & performance. The problem with acetone or xylene added directly to a fuel tank, is that the chemical(s) ruin the fuel pump.
In addition to more likely costly damage don´t those things cost more per gallon of energy content? If you have old carborator type car you can get better economy per mile with fine water mist sucked in with the air and greater power too as it becomes steam adding to pressure on the piston in last half of the down stroke. (Water takes 540 calories per gram to turn into steam and that heat transfer takes tiny but not zero time.) You can think this way: with cooler exhaust more heat was used for power.
I worked one summer for lion oil company and put only 100 hour used spark plugs from its dynamometer lab in my car before each weekend drive home to get mom´s cooking and clean clothes for free. I always came to full stop at traffic lights, even if they were green. I filled my tank at same pumps, parked same way both at start and trip end to scratch line I had made in the filler tube and read pump´s gauge to accuracy of + or - 0.01 gallon. I held speed to 55 for the trip. Windows closed always but with lights and radio on or off as known extra energy use load. Tires always firm at 30 PSI by my same gauge when starting trip etc. for exactly the same test trips except for possible electrical loads. My careful data made no sense, UNTIL someone pointed out to me the humidity effect, then it did: Very moist air or slight fog gives better mileage. Later I learned that some WWII fighters had water injection system for brief power boost when in trouble but it is hard on motor.
Bad assumption. High octane fuels contain less energy than low octane ones. The only time you will get better mileage is if you have an engine that's knocking significantly at the lower octane level; increasing the octane level will reduce knocking and allow the ECU to advance the spark plug timing, leading to better utilization of fuel. However, with most modern car engines (i.e. cars designed for 87 octane) higher octane levels do absolutely nothing, and can actually decrease mileage slightly due to their lower energy content.
The "higher octane is better fuel" meme has come about because of the higher price of high octane gas, the requirement for very high octane in high performance engines (100 octane is common in aviation gasoline) and because of the societal use of the term "high octane" to refer to aggressive, fast-paced activities.
Humidity decreases engine performance since it displaces oxygen, and since it results in less dense air overall. (That's why "density altitude" is an important parameter for aircraft.) Fog CAN improve performance if the mist survives the trip through the air cleaner. Usually it does not. Water injection systems can improve maximum power by decreasing combustion chamber temperatures without decreasing pressures, and indeed allow some engines to survive power levels they could not without that extra mist. It works because energy must be expended to boil the water into steam. The reduction in thermal energy reduces temperature rise, while the increased pressure of the steam makes up for the lost expansion.
But all that is beside the point in terms of mileage. Since high humidity levels decrease air density two things happen:
1) The throttle plate must be open wider to get the same power. This reduces pumping losses and improves efficiency at the expense of maximum power.
2) Lower air density = less drag.
Both these things happen when it is hot out as well. Thus hot temps/high humidity = best fuel economy, cold temps/low humidity = max power.
Agreed. To expand on that, knocking generally occurs AFTER the spark plug fires, but due to the rapid rise in pressure areas in the cylinder experience ignition before the flame front reaches them. Most engines fire their spark plug before top dead center of the stroke, because it takes a finite amount of time for the pressure to ramp up and you want the peak just after top dead center. When knocking occurs this time is greatly reduced so the highest pressure can be reached BEFORE top dead center. This 1) reduces your mileage since the combustion in your cylinders is now trying to slow your engine down and 2) is very hard on the engine since now the piston is trying to push against all that pressure.
Unfortunately, it is also my personal experience, not just my assumption...
Anyhow, long answer from the straight dope message board:
"Octane says absolutely nothing about energy content. The octane rating only tells you how compressible the gas is before it spontaneously combusts.
Engines are designed for a specific octane rating. If you use too low of an octane rating for your engine, the gasoline may combust before the spark ignites it. This is very much not good for your engine, and you can actually ruin your engine because of it. Most cars these days have a knock sensor which can detect when this is happening and it will adjust the timing of your engine to prevent damage, though your gas mileage will go to hell in a handbasket.
Generally speaking, if you use a higher octane than what your engine specifies all you are doing is wasting money. You are paying for gasoline that won't spontaneously combust at pressures far higher than what are produced inside your engine.
In terms of actual energy content, higher octane gas can often surprisingly be lower in energy content. Want a higher octane gas? Add alcohol to it. Alcohol has only about 60 percent of the energy of gasoline, but it has a much higher octane rating.
Engines vary. The engine in my Cadillac can tolerate gasoline that is 89 octane or higher. Put in 87 and it will run very poorly. Put in 89 and it is happy and runs well. Put in 91 or 93 and it gets slightly better mileage, but not enough to justify the extra cost. Our Toyota Camry though doesn't behave the same way. Put in 87 and it runs like crap (that much is the same - the car is designed for 89 or better). Put in 89 and you get good mileage. Put in 91 or 93 though and the mileage actually starts to drop. It doesn't go down as much as if you put 87 in, but it definitely goes down instead of up.
The oil companies don't help matters either. They advertise higher octane as "supreme" as if it is somehow better gasoline. It isn't. It may be better or it may be worse, and the octane rating alone won't tell you which it is. Often, the higher octane gasolines burn slower, which may make them run very poorly in your particular car.
The long and short of it is that you should use exactly the octane rating specified in your car's users manual. If it gives a single number (like 89) then use it. If it's like my Cadillac and it says something like 89 or better, then you can experiment and see what your cost per mile is with the options that your car allows."
"Just to add, a high millage engine might get carbon buildup on the pistons, effectively raising the compression ratio. In this case higher octane fuel might help the engine, but only temporally. This is why you some times hear people say the higher octane made their engine perform better."
"Some high octane fuels will have a higher energy density and others will not."
TL, DR: It is a complicated issue. Sometimes it is yes sometimes it is no...
Those water injection systems, called ADI (anti-detonation injection), do not increase power. They are used to reduce pre-ignition when the supercharger boost is increased. The added supercharger pressure is the source of power increase.
I suppose you could also use ADI to allow a leaner fuel mix in search of greater fuel efficiency. However, I imagine it will result in various trade-offs (i.e., lower cylinder pressure = lower power output).
Octane (specifically iso-octane the hydrocarbon) has less energy than heptane (the primary component of gasoline.) In "pure" gasoline, 100% heptane has an octane rating of zero and 100% octane has an octane rating of 100.
There is no such thing as "pure" gasoline though; gasoline is a mixture of hundreds of hydrocarbons, including heptanes and octanes. Thus the "octane" number of the fuel is used to indicate its resistance to detonation. In general, additives that increase a fuel's octane rating (like alcohol) also reduce its energy.
Good summary. In general you are better off using the octane rating your engine was designed for. Too low and you get detonation, which modern cars deal with by advancing spark timing and reducing power and fuel economy. Too high and you a) pay too much and b) lose mileage and power as well.
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