Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Quantum Quack, Mar 4, 2006.
You offer me shit and call it shinola.
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All of the talk about sweetness and light does not mean I have to put up with your garbage.
I missed this edit.
Not that it matters anymore. But I'll respond anyway.
I'm no expert in this matter, but I've already given one tactic that has been shown to help.
Giving wild animals a corridor through which they can travel through their range. Many animals have sizeable territories, you know. They wouldn't be happy in your back yard.
This also keeps them off the roads. A dangerous place for animals.
And out of the streets of the cities.
Animals are often brought into danger merely by being seen in inhabited areas. It's foolish, yes. But people get scared and animals get hurt.
Yes. More animals are hurt by humans than the other way around, but such it is. It's not going to change. Humans will always hold the safety of their own young higher than the safety of any other. If we lost that instinct then we'd soon lose our existence entirely.
There are other methods that I really can't recall at the moment. I've read this and that but don't retain much of it as this is not my main area of interest.
As to having methods that already work...
That's why animals are in danger? Because the methods we have work?
And, by the way, your 'methods', as has already been established, is making them pets.
That still surprises me.
I suppose you interpret my surprise as contempt or something.
I do kinda hold the idea in contempt for various reasons, but your motives are obviously not contemptible.
But. I am really just shocked that you brought the whole thing up.
That's just... wrong, man.
Anyway. Like I said. None of this matters. Wonder if you've posted another insult while I was typing this? Think the odds are somewhere greater than being attacked by a grizzly bear?
You're really an excellent debater, Metakron.
You should teach.
Of course you do, Metakron.
That much is obvious.
You despise me with all the fiber of your being.
You see me as an evil bully.
A monster of some sort.
Someone who sets out purposefully to destroy you. Push you down. Hurt you.
Sabotage productive discussion.
I'm one of 'them'.
Yet. I still foolishly try from time to time to get through.
I really don't know why.
I'm just a fool sometimes, that's all.
All you have is this endless drip-drip-drip garbage. Do whatever it takes, say the stupidest things you can think up, just screw with things until they fall apart, just to follow that stupid script you have. Hell yes I keep blowing up at this willful, malicious stupidity. I have a relative who I wish had died at the age of five because he drove me crazy with that shit. It's always get in there with that obviously stupid, illogical, malicious stuff and cling to it even if you have to use physical violence, insist that you are right even though anyone with a measurable IQ should be able to tell that you are wrong, and when you cling to it long enough, I'm the one who has a cracked skull and a cored asshole and you're rolling on the ground laughing your stupid guts out.
So in person, it's like this: I will attempt to leave the room when someone starts that kind of shit with me. I will work very hard to leave that room. If that someone will not allow me to leave that room, I will use the necessary amount of physical force to do so. I will not stop applying force until I am away from that situation, capiche? When it becomes necessary to do so, I will enjoy every bruise, scrape, and fractured bone
that I inflict.
Why do I take offense? It is because I know how much damage someone like you has done to the lives of others, how much you are currently doing, and how much you plan to do. It's people like you who murdered me in the first place. You're going to use every excuse it takes to murder most of the biosphere. So just where, you might ask the rhetorical question, did I lose respect for your life and why am I so mentally ill that I might even think that you should not exist in your present form? Because you are one of the mother-buggerers who destroyed my world.
What a bunch of chicken-shit, Invert. I sentence you to several million hours of community service.
Get through? You don't have a goddam thing to bring with you when you do get through. I'm giving you too fucking much credit when I even talk to you about it. All you have is the death of my soul and the deaths of those who I care for.
You know nothing about me, Metakron.
I'm not your bully-boys.
Sad, you are. These distortions you see.
There you go again.
You're not dead, Metakron.
Can the dramatics.
So easy to marginalize other, is it not?
It makes you feel better about yourself?
Does it assuage, for a moment, your raging inferiority complex?
Not for long though, does it?
Because it's not me that you want to lash out at, is it?
But you're afraid of them.
You can't even look them in the eye, can you?
Your 'rebuttal' seems to always fall into the line of "you're stupid and evil and dumb and you want to murder me and blah blah blah".
Ever heard of debating the topic?
Not that animals are the topic anyway.
I only came back into this thread because I wanted to get your opinion on Sartre. And I figured I'd comment on the unrealistic fantasy of animals and man living side by side in peace.
I never thought that it would come to this again.
I should have known though.
I often find myself being surprised in situations such as this. When I really shouldnt be surprised at all.
I wonder if I'll ever learn?
Buddy. If anyone has a script it's you and your "they murdered me" routine.
How many times do you just keep repeating the same shit over and over again?
You are seemingly unable to defend your points, rather you just blow up and start flailing about.
Come on. Point out how it's stupid. Give me examples. Point out how illogical it is. Show me how malicious it is.
Well. You seem to be capable of telling me I'm wrong. This is true enough.
However, you seem unable to tell me why I'm wrong.
If such happens, then you've cracked your own skull and cored your own asshole. Because I've done no such thing.
I'm not laughing either.
You perplex me. Puzzle me.
Make me sad, quite often.
There's nothing funny going on here.
Nothing at all.
And they usually try to prevent you from leaving?
I am truly unable to fathom you, Metakron. Really. I just can't understand a man who has so little control of his own life.
I leave the room when I want. Whenever I want. Nobody restrains me.
And when circumstances are such that I am unable to leave the room (voluntarily unable, of course) I leave in other ways.
I just don't get you. Metakron.
And, I promise you, you don't get me.
That's ok though.
As Platonica has said many times, you are not entirely to blame.
They did hurt you. Distort you.
Do you like being pitied?
(And. Before you claim 'victory' over what might seem an emotional outburst. I want to stress that I say this lovingly. I'm more tired than anything else. You are a very tiring person. An energy vampire of sorts, aren't you? I'm pretty much sick of reading your paranoid delusions though. I'm sure I'll be back though. I'm too foolish to stay away forever. Hug?)
Hey, you choose to dance with the devil, don't bitch because your little hoofies get burned.
The reason I fly at you is because of our history. You won't stop doing stuff until I blow up, then you play like you did nothing to provoke it, then you just keep going on and on and on as if you were 19 years old and didn't have a clue about when to stop. Your being in a conversation really degrades it. I don't get to say anything against your point of view without the shit starting. You have me conditioned to it. So fuck you.
Who insulted who, Metakron?
I discussed your idea on animals.
I don't agree. But I discussed it.
Who insulted who?
Who stopped discussing and turned it into "You're dumb"?
Who attempted to dehumanize who?
You did, buddy boy.
And now you're going to say I conditioned you into it?
No. Fuck you.
You were conditioned into it long before I arrived on the scene.
You've merely put me on the shelf with your oppressors.
You've labelled me and there I sit.
My presence in the conversation degrades it?
You've failed time and time again to address things I bring up.
You fail. And can only insult me.
You degrade the conversation.
Is it because I'm in it?
But the real reason is because of how you see me.
How you interpret me.
Who's face you see when you read my words.
You don't read me, Metakron.
And that's the problem.
And. By the way. My hoofies got burned?
I'm wondering if I should be kind and let you believe that.
I've already told you long ago that you are incapable of ripping me apart.
I said nothing, you might note, about you possibliy ripping my argument apart. I do not see myself as always right. I am, in fact, often wrong. You are quite capable of being right where I'm wrong. And you are quite capable of proving me wrong. And, I would accept it. Peacably. No shame in it.
no. What I meant was that you are incapable of ripping me apart.
I give you no power over me.
You can't touch me.
You, on the other hand, have long ago given up all responsibility for yourself.
You make everyone else the bearer of your burden.
You've become emotionally enraged in here. Not because of my words. But because of your interpretation of my intent. Because of your history with others. And then you lay the blame on me. As if I purposefully baited you.
It's really sad.
And I shouldn't even be posting this.
I already said a couple of times that I was done for a time. But, I've also said that I'm a fool and here I am being foolish again.
Hoping beyond hope.
And if you actually wanted to discuss this sensibly, first off, I said that the person who wrote the BC article didn't have the intelligence to run a hot dog cart or something equally simple and that was an insult to my intelligence.
I can't believe that anyone who is not severely mentally retarded is going for it. 11 attacks in all those years and the way to magnify the import of those events is to simply say that human safety is "paramount"? Goddam stupid idiotic pompous asshole phrasing. "It just is." So somehow this means that we can't sacrifice just a little bit of our safety, just a tiny bit of our safety, for the sake of many thousands of lives that don't happen to be human? I mean, a child is not a pig is not a rat, but the lives of the other animals are worth the very few human deaths involved.
And why should I have the task of sorting this shit out over and over again and then have someone just throw it back in my face and tell me it's all wrong? You know what? I'm going to find a way to yank it out of their hands and keep it out of their hands because they, and I suspect you, are doing this so that one day I would rather kill myself than try to explain it for the thousandth time. I'm never going to get through to you and I'm never going to get through to them. So, somehow or another, their power over me is going to come to an end. I have rights and the responses that I get from people like you and yours when I tell you that I have rights, respect them, is the equivalent of babies blowing mucus bubbles. Do you have anything with which to make it believable? If someone like you comes and points a gun at my head, just pull the goddam trigger. Someone one of these times is going to try to dominate me and lose a fucking arm, I swear. Paddy's going to wish he had simply lost another fight with a barrel of bricks and tools.
Invert, I am incapable of ripping your argument apart because it is arranged so that you will never know the difference. No matter what I prove about your argument you will cling to it until the end of time. I really don't believe that you are capable of reason.
And you know why I make everyone else the bearer of my burden, as you put it? It's because people threw this burden in my lap, actually more like in my face and I carry it more or less in my lap. Then they told me "fix it." Then they abused me for every attempt to do it.
You deliberately made your argument a taunt. I do not believe, Invert, that you "love" me in any way. I believe that you are only here to disrupt the presentation of my views. You represent a false, twisted, and malicious set of values and you are quite obsessed with making sure that the word of better things does not see the light of day.
Don't go away, Invert! I hate it when you go silent like that and turn your back on me and ignore me!
OK, be that way. See if I care. Give me the silent treatment for the rest of eternity and see if I care.
I was actually thinking that that was a possibilty.
And meant to put an "or" clause in that post.
I guess I forgot.
I'll accept your explanation and offer an apology.
Why would you say it insults your intelligence?
It was simple statistics.
It wasn't even damning statistics.
11 deaths. 100 injuries. That's nothing. As you've said, more people hit the powerball or whatever.
But, to the dead and injured? It doesn't matter what the statistics are.
Also, my point stands. More people would be injured if they were in close proximity to wild animals. That was the point about the dog attacks.
I live in Seattle and there's a lot of development going on in once-wild areas. Wild animals are being pushed out of their homes. Cougars are seen in the streets of new developments. Bears roaming around construction sites. I saw bear tracks just a few weeks back at a job site.
Are there a lot of attacks?
Nah. Not really. I never meant to imply there are.
But there are some.
And as the animals are pushed into extremity they are on the rise.
The animals are, truth be told, in more danger from man than vice versa.
But, making them pets is not a solution.
Not very fun.
It's the truth.
Human safety is paramount. This is biological imperative.
This is not to say that the bears are being hunted down. On the contrary, this means that practical methods of keeping the bears off the humans and vice versa need to be looked into.
I dare you to say that if it was your child killed or maimed by a bear.
That animals should be made into pets?
That a few human casualties is acceptable loss?
There are going to be differences of opinion. And this is likely one of those areas where neither one of us will wholly agree with the other.
It's opinion here.
But, I believe that the best interest of the animals is not making them pets or captive. Except as a last resort. They are wild and deserve their freedom.
Actually. I just like discussing things. It sharpens my debating skill. And it also introduces me to disparate viewpoints. And it also heightens my communication skills.
I discuss things on this forum for many reasons, I assure you that none of those reasons entails you committing suicide.
You might on some issues.
Might not on others.
And vice versa, yes?
Take it back from them.
The problem, and pardon me for pointing this out, is that it seems to be an entrenched habit on both your parts.
I realize that the solution is not as easily done as said, but that's the heart of the matter. And what I've been saying over and over again to you.
You have responsibility for yourself.
You have the power over yourself.
You, at present, allow them power over you.
Take it back?
The devil is in the details, of course.
I suggest that you don't do it violently.
And fuck respect.
You take what is right.
You earn respect.
Make what believable? That you have rights? You do have rights. According to the constitution and whatnot.
Wait. You're saying that I should make my mucus bubbles believable.
I've hardly given any advice on the subject. All I've said is about personal power. Responsibility.
Taking control of your own life.
Stop seeking blame.
Start seeking solutions.
That sort of thing.
True enough that my advice doesn't get into details. How can it? I know next to nothing about the practicalities of your situation.
It takes boots on the ground, doesn't it?
All I can offer is moral support.
I have no gun.
Just don't completely freak out on him.
Dont go overboard. That's a common mistake.
Just enough to show him you're not going to take it.
But. Be careful.
You have shown me time and time again that you are not entirely capable of interpreting situations reasonably.
I'm not trying to dominate you or any of these other things you accuse me of constantly.
I can only say that this is so. I have no method of proof. I wish I did. But I don't.
You could easily misinterpret a situation and react improperly and even further embed yourself in the quagmire.
Does embarrassment hold you down as well?
Improper social behavior?
Does being laughed at bother you?
I'm not trying to attack here. I'm asking because..welll. I don't know why. It's kinda late and I should be sleeping, but you've pulled me into your web....
I want to understand what it is that confines you.
The forces that oppress you.
I don't believe I did, Metakron.
I did become taunting after I thought you had 'dismissed' me.
Called me stupid and halted any further communications.
But before then I think I was not taunting you.
I'll admit that I was wrong about that 'person' thing. It was an easy mistake to make though, yes?
The dangers of this medium. Text.
You read me wrong, man.
I'm a smart-ass. But, I'm not evil.
When I attack. I attack quite openly and without remorse.
Anyway. It's late.
I'm not going to be able to reply in here anymore tonight...
Shit. I still got a long reply to Brent to make as welll.....
Tempus fugit and all that.
And of course I don't love you.
Not in any way.
Maybe in some slight empathic sort of way.
Just a fellow traveler to another.
But, nah. I don't love you.
I do feel bad for you sometimes though.
And you do annoy the fuck out of me when you get all whiny. Does that count?
Know what really bugs me about your paranoid accusations?
Not that I represent a false, twisted, malicious whatever. Because one's man high is another man's low and all that. Nah. That doesn't really bother me. People can have differences of opinion and that's fine.
What bothers me is the second part. About how you think that I'm actively trying to repress your views.
That sickens me, actually.
It's not that you see your views as 'better'. That's pretty much normal human behavior.
It's just the thing where you interpret all my debate as an attempt to silence you.
On the contrary, I've tried to get you to speak out. It's you that clam up into your ad homs and refuse to discuss topics anymore.
I don't silence you.
You silence yourself.
And you do so with the excuse that you shouldn't have to 'sort this shit out for the thousandth time'.
If you don't enjoy debate... then what are you doing on a debate forum?
Family Intervention Suck ass.
THOU HATH LEARNETH a .......... Valuable lesson. *frown*
Not By choice... but......... Never EVER write your feelings out to the world when you know your FAMILY Might be reading it... Except jshatz...
I was actually given a DAMN ULTA-FUCKING-MATUM.... And now I can't go drive by myself any more..
Lesson fucking learned already... god... Honestly the next time I reach out for help, Im going to do it from Australia or something...
SO ..... Meta, Nexus............ Seems you two have QUITE the little episode going on..
I want to join In... just think of me as the girl in the Bikini who walks around the ring In high heels and a bikini??? holding a number...... Ha...
Any way.. I am still alive.. but not well.... not well INDEED
Ok so.... here IS Somn I think is important.
Some day, I WILL Open up the Door in the Morning, Take a Deep
Breath in.. Listen to the way Birds sing. And Not just listen, But some how
Feel them Sing too and connect and Embrace In a Harmony so Earnestly written
about since.... well Since man could Talk.. I would See the Dew on the
Spider Webs, not as nasty bugs, But as Small Magnificent Beings Fulfilled in
Life by nothing more then The Love Of Architecture and the Occasional bug who
Views to close, tangles the delicate Fabric and is Devoured with only the
Love skill and Grace of a spider... I will See this Transition Happen not as
some horrifying Death. But Rather I will See it as a Quick Penetration of the
finest Chemical Produced by the ancient Alchemists to induce Joy and Serenity
and soft sleep as the creature passes from this Dimension into the next.
Leaving his mass behind for the Continuation of the Great Architect. I will
See the Threading and the Webbing of the bug not as a Hideous Strangulating
Restraint.. But a Blanket of the softest fabric that will Wrap it's delicate
intoxicated body with nothing but the Finest threads Fit for a Pharos.... A
Beautiful Good bye to this world with a hello into the next...
With the Spider Full and satisfied, and the Bug Snugly and cozily wrapped in
his Fare well, I will Glance to see the Creature Of grass that wears a soft
blanket of Dew and Drinks from it.. I will not see this Grass as a staining
Growing annoyance of a chore.. But Rather.. For what it Truly is, a
remarkable recreation of a stamped out event that Provides Pillows and
coolness to our Feet in the Summer. I will Marvel in the Awe of how a
winding Ivy Interacts and climbs a Giant Pine tree. I wont see this as some
Germinating mass Feeding on the roots of the Pine, and climbing it's back,
covering it's eyes blinding the tree. Bringing a Escalator of Sap eating
bugs to the top of the Pine only to Eat it Down to nothing and move On..
Instead I will See it as a helpful Creature who Appreciates his grace and
Heights. Who Holds the Winding Ivy up like Little John on Christmas morning
so he can View the world and all her Grace... The Pine, So appreciative to
the Ivy Creature knowing that no Bark or wood will ever grow, though they
are Kindred in the Way they Feed....
I will be Thankful For the Dirt and Rocks.. Not Kicking them out into the
Street not caring and out of anger . Rather, Finding the beauty in the
delicate way the molecules Bind one another and Hold on to a creation
Chipped away with time and sculpted By the Hand or the Artist Air and Time.
I will Be thank full For the Bonding Molecules Who make possible every
Home, comfort Known to the earth. The Same Molecule structures of the rock
that provides us with a Dwelling space once Grinded Down and re formed by
tha hand of man, the imagination of patience. The Structure of Learning.
and the Artistic grace of God. I will be thank full for the Sun. I will Not
see it as a blistering bubble or ultraviolet Razor like heat that scorches
it's Victoms Slowly through out the Day whilst they do not know.. Or How it
make Dry the Desert And starves the Creatures. A huge Blazing GIANT Large
and hungry Pulling Each planet toward it waiting to Engulf it in Flame ...
.......................Instead.. I will See it as the source of Nurturing it
truly is. A Soft Warmth. Another Giant Creature who keeps it's Distance only
to provide small amounts of Nutrients to hungry Cell organisms who can only
feed through the Wondrous and strange way of Photo synthesis. I will See
the Sun as spreading Light through the land to Let me Look at all these
wonder full things of the Earth. The Warmth of a Giant... But the Heart of a
Leviathan.... Spreading creation in ways that will Massage every sense
known To man.... knowing the light from the energy of the Sun is the only
way we know Color.. and Be thankful for Site to see it. Oh the colors.. I
will also Look to the flowers and NOT say they need to be Brighter Better. I
will Not allow the smell to bother my Sinus cavities with excited mucus
Producing membrane stimulating Pollen... Instead I will See the Creation of
unfolding. The Sexual desire of the Flower reaching to the Bee through sense
of Smell and pheromones. Not to Seduce or entrap, but To Share and feed the
hungry bee for Spreading it's pollen so Delicately to other Flowers. I will
See them As Giggling Ferries, awaiting the Kiss of the bee....
yes.. When I wake up in the Morning Some day, this is what It will be
Like... But it isn't at the Moment.... Sunrises Burn my Eyes as if I was
some horrid partying Drunk the night before. My Eye lids Heavy from the
light and sleep I lack. ... The sleep that never comes after a Bazillion
Sheep... The Sleep That never Nurtures My thoughts. The sleep that when it
Does come, is Restless. Producing Terrifying paralyzing flashes of Neurons
through my brain. Pounding Down on the biology that Produces Dopamine’s....
Flooding My Mind with Delusions Of None existing Creatures who Toy with
me... Beat me, and slap me. The sleep that dose not Bring to me the comfort
of relaxed Muscles that are refreshed and ready in the morning, but rather
Shaking and sore reminding us of the impending DOOM of DEATH and Old age.
The Sleep that I miss that makes my eyes water and my mouth Yawn. The Sleep
that Has me day dreaming into other places on the flip side because Focus is
Just out of reach. Concentration is using spiritual Fumes to maintain it's
vibration of, "I am Bored".... but has not enough Fuel to move Beyond
The Sleep That promised kisses of Sanctuary and the embrace of Solitude.
With out Sleep the senses work more Over time. The Body Begins to use
emotion as a sense of it's own, just to make sense of the sense's....
Confusion kicks in.. you want so Much to Just let go, but there's this anger
because The Sandman has not visited... Suddenly the Evil distortion of Mania
has transformed a Mythical Creature Of Dream into a taunting Creature who
holds the key to all of your happiness. To all Of your Successes, to the
very Security of who you are.... but Does not allow you any more then a
taste. Like a Crack Pimp would do to a Junky whore.... For no other reason
then to tease for his own amusement.
The Anger will have me annoyed at every sound... every bright light....
My feelings would be intensified to the point of a numbing tingling
sensation that refuses to stop. As If the circulation of Blood in my Veins
Is doing the Cha cha Drunk and wasted Dancing around in nothing more then
Tubes in a Water park. The anger Will Grow... The Annoyance will Rise...
there will be no out let for this. Implosion becomes reality But has
Paused it's self in time only to watch you suffer. your anger Has Now risen
like a tsunami.
I Think to my self this is the reason for Structure. This is the Burial Of Chaos.
Anger thrashes out as if it were a storm beating into the buildings of a Helpless city.
Every encounter, a man Walking his dog, the women taken her children to school… all of them Disgust me. I want to Bring them down to me, only to see how they Raise out of my Hell. This Anger turns to a harsh anguish that hurts and pounds. If the Spider web were any larger I would throw myself to it like a lady of the night to Jack the ripper. Take this Madness’ from me… NO! Wait, Please don’t make it go away. When it is gone all is empty and shallow like the Arizona Trapped Forever under only feet of water. Where once there was shouts and echo’s of crying mean, there is nothingness there now. Just a Reminder… No, Do Not take my anger, do Not take my Anguish and leave me empty.
Tears swell like the Dew on the Grass…. My Cheeks are blades of grass where the dew slides down. Every thing Becomes a blur. I am I still here? I have to wonder to myself. Is there a hope of change? Of Taking this Negative impression of my being away and replacing it with a Photo of hope?
Nothing makes sense any more. There is only a moat of tears swirling at my feet mixing with some small Puddle of mud and water. Rainbows swirl in the little moat reminding me of nothing more then How toxins rainbow them selves’ out in the same fashion. Tears are, how ever nothing more then Toxins. I want them all released. Gone, but not the Anger. This I need to hold on too. With out it, I will be empty. This Can not be…. No more Emptiness’. Depression Grabs Hold my Heart, like a Rapist Grabbing his victims Flesh. An Un wanted Rape is Preparing it’s self. The Coffee I smell is the only scent that Hold sense for me. Yes, I will go and get my coffee. Through the kitchen, and around to the center island lays a puddle of browned water, and coffee grinds. Again I have made a mess by not paying enough attention as I poured in the coffee. I shake my head and want to cry even more at my own stupidity. But Some how I Find this humorous. I Shake my Head, and watch the cascading coffee stained water slide down the counter. This I some how visualize as a tropical mudslide running down the side of the Counter. The Coffee pot spurts and gurgles like a small Volcano might sound like. I Enjoy this Some how.
I pretend I am stuck in some strange make believe island. The aroma from the MJB coffee smells wonderful, and excitement fills me some how. I Chuckles again at the mess. I walk to the Kitchen sink, there are no Dishes to be Cleaned, and this makes me feel good some how… I Grab the sponge from the back of the sink and I Think to my self how nice and clean the water faucet looks. This Brings another pinch of a smile to me. I am not some one who Cares much for mess, but I never realized it could bring a smile to me when I felt so Dark. Let along how a small mess could amuse me. I sponge up my little Caffeinated water fall… Shaking my head. I feel clumsy, yet I feel better. This is how it feels to be content. This is the Process of the Negative being turned into a photo and I Can Remember now what it is all like again. I will Not let depression hold me down into a low self esteem today.
I Enter My Children’s rooms. They Sleep like little Elves on the flowers in the Decorations I have made for them. I Smile even more to realize that I am Not a dark person. This is where it will all be ok again. While the photo materializes, I feel well again. For now… and I can sleep now. Yawning, I bring myself back to my bed. The Coffee no Longer needed. I push the Canopy aside and slide deep into comfort. This is home. I am Ok. And I will be ok always. This, This is how I try to stay away from the darkness of being Manic Depressive.
Leave it to copy and paste.... That wasn't what I meant to put up there... THIS is what I meant to put out there.. Damn I am a ditz.....
Brain protein may be linked to depression
By LAURAN NEERGAARD
AP MEDICAL WRITER
WASHINGTON -- Scientists have discovered a protein that seems to play a crucial role in developing depression, a finding that may lead to new treatments for the often debilitating illness - and fundamental understanding of why it strikes.
Although problems with the mood-regulating brain chemical serotonin have long been linked to depression, scientists don't know what causes the disease that afflicts some 18 million Americans - or exactly what serotonin's role is.
The newly found protein, named p11, appears to regulate how brain cells respond to serotonin, researchers from Rockefeller University and Sweden's Karolinska Institute report Friday in the journal Science.
"We're all very excited about this discovery," said Nobel laureate Paul Greengard, a Rockefeller neuroscientist who led the research. "People have been looking for modulators of serotonin for a long time."
Said Oxford University pharmacologist Trevor Sharp, who reviewed the work: "This finding represents compelling evidence that p11 has a pivotal role in both the cause of depression and perhaps its successful treatment."
Most depression medications used today are members of the Prozac family that work by making more serotonin available to brain cells. They stem from a theory that depression patients might not have enough serotonin, a neurotransmitter, or chemical that carries signals between nerve cells.
Then scientists discovered the serotonin connection was more complicated, dependent on how well the neurotransmitter binds to receptors, or docking ports, on cell surfaces. Fourteen different serotonin receptors have been discovered.
The new research focuses on one of those receptors, dubbed the "1B" receptor, that seems to play a particularly big role in major depression.
Greengard and colleagues discovered that the p11 protein increases the numbers of these receptors on the surfaces of cells, mobilizing them so they're available for serotonin to do its job.
That led to a series of remarkable experiments, using mice as well as brain tissue saved from the autopsies of depressed patients, that found:
-Depressed people have substantially lower levels of p11 in their brain tissue than the non-depressed. So did a breed of mice, called "helpless" mice, that exhibit depression symptoms.
-Then the mice were given two older antidepressants - one known as a tricyclic, the other an MAO inhibitor - and electric shock therapy. Each treatment increased the amount of p11 in mice brains, even though each therapy is known to work in different ways.
-So the researchers bred mice that had no p11-producing gene. They acted depressed, and had fewer 1B receptors and less serotonin activity than regular mice. They also were less likely to improve with depression medication. Mice genetically altered to produce extra p11 acted in just the opposite way - no depression-like behavior, and their brain cells carried extra serotonin-signaling receptors.
"It's a very important finding," said Dr. Thomas Insel, director of the National Institute of Mental Health, which funded the research. "This gives us a new set of targets for drug development," but also "suggests a whole new area of investigation for trying to ... ultimately discover does this have anything to do with why some people get depressed and others don't."
The researchers don't yet know whether a genetic defect or some other factor is responsible for altering p11 levels.
"The p11 is upstream of the receptor, and now the question is what is upstream of the p11," Greengard said.
But Sharp noted that bouts of depression often are associated with serious stress, and that p11 is part of a protein family known to be sensitive to certain stress-related hormones.
Greengard's lab now is researching the potential for p11-related therapies.
But the discovery likely will aid research into other diseases that also depend on cell-based receptors.
"We're finding that other molecules control other receptors, so I think this may open up quite a major new area of approach to developing therapeutic drugs," Greengard said.
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