Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Common now qq. You sounded upset or something. I was actually hoping you would be laughing after reading that. Honestly the first time I read it I thought it was very extreme and impossible and very too much critical to read.
If you are referring to your post 3 posts back, It reeked of the usual gobbidy gook that prevails in questions being discussed in the philosophy forum. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! All it demonstrates is the difficulty of clarification.....Maybe there is a need to first define which aspect we wish to discuss, be it, outcomes or psycho-pathology. Are we talking about causality as part of the definition or are we simply trying to define the definition.....ha or are we talking about possible rectification or "cure". Possibly we need to clarify our processes of approach a little better to actually achieve anything that has greater value. OK..in other words lets write a book.... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
ahmmm... and you're asking me, of all the people, to help you????! My god, if only I could focusssssssssssss You know I can't write a book, I can't even stand up straight.... Especially considering continuing the same shit I always do ya know, you've got to be insane man if you think i can help you write a book. insane, I say! hell i can try, only hell knows that...... -b `
I was actually referring to a post made earlier by someone else about this thread being a book and was not serious. However, [ I love that word.....the ultimate qualifier[ However, I think if we want to achieve anything other than discussion with this thread a lot of work is going to have to be done in clarifying it's purposes. Which is what would have to be done if a comprehesibe book was to be written. I am not sure that I am prepared to put in that sort of work...I guess.
And that explains precisely my lack of participation in this thread, QQ. I still read it and watch it swing back and forth between some good serious insights and some garbled rambling. Just as I've stressed many times, my training is not in treatment and I don't feel inclined to try and teach an eight-year course through posts and replies. So I'll just make a comment in passing. The human mind is an amazingly complex piece of "machinery." It's workings - and mis-fires - cannot be reduced to just a few hundred thousand words. No one would expect an automobile to operate fine if you just crossed up two of it's electrical connections. And given the billions of connections that being made, broken and rearranged constantly inside the brain, is it any wonder that it can malfunction? And that's just internal. The external stresses that can be - and often are - placed on it often drive it into overload as well. And you've already provided the best answer to most of the questions raised regarding treatment. All that anyone can do is use the best information that's available to them at that moment. There is no other answer.
I find no problem with anything said here. It is the nature of these forums to be very diverse in particpants, from the erudite specialists to the casual lurker to the enthuistic but unqualified searcher. It is not something that will change any time soon. I guess it is a matter of what you expect from such a diversity of interested parties. All in all I find thses forums good value but of course if one really wants to get serious about something more specific studies need to be undertaken. The issue of psychosis is complex, not only from a hormonal or biochemistry perspectve but also from a societal perspective and then we can may be get to the personal perspectives of the actual sufferer. It is comlpex, as complex as any area of concern could possibly be. To apply a psychological understanding is almost impossible thus therapy is limited to what we can deal with. The medical profession is just as much limited in what it can do as the issue's complexity is overwhelming in it's magnitude. Luckilly for some medication can diminish the presentation of psychosis, and as this they know as being true, of course this is their first action and that is provide medication as treatment. For the troubled reader: It is always highly recommended by me that a person seeks professional help and guidance even if done so anonomously. I think at the top of all this complexity is the simple statement "It doiesn't make sense" and as we know what makes sense to one person doesn't necessarilly mean it will make sense to someone else. If you read the constant flow of threads about objectivity and subjectivity in the philosophy forums on the internet it is easy to see why this issue has such a dynamic to it. It is therefore necessary to put the word psychosis in a better perspective as in most cases it refers not to trivial non-sense but usually to the more profound non-senses that are evident in the serious implications of that non-sense not only on the sufferer but those that are impacted on by the sufferer. So it is I think important to keep in mind that psychosis is not a trivial metaphysical notion but a more serious behavioural and thus quality of life issue. Thus the word is emotionally loaded and inspires many passions especially from those who have a vested interest in it's definition.
JUSt read this veryshocking article about which i had no idea about it is titled 'More kids are getting anti psychotic drugs' and is here--checkout middle column: www.propagandamatrix.com "...Soaring numbers of American children arebeing prescribed anti-psychotic drugs, in many cases for attention deficit disorder or other behavorial problems...The nnual number of children prescribed anti-psychotic drugs jumped fivefold between 1995 and 2002, to an estimated 2.5 million te study said...Heavy marketing by drug companies probably contributed to te increase in the use of anti-psychotic drugs among children" QQ, i cannot cut and paste with my dinky system. is there any chance you can get the whole article up here?
See where this comes from:Hey Duendy, What about the kids Who Will Experiment with "Illegal" Drugs trying to stop their own feelings? Where are your Statistics on that? Special K any one? Acid? Shrooms? Peyote?.. All of these Change the Psychological Concept as well? Why Not add THOSE into the Mix of Prescribed Drugs? Lets Add Candy in there Too... And Caffeine... And Many more... But Don't Stop there, how about Anorexia? And Bulimia? Cutting... The list goes on, and in Each case it is a way For the individual To ALTER their Prescriptions Of reality From what they FEEL is "Real"... You Can't just Jump in with THAT statistic and Argue it against the Medical Field. At least they are attempting to do something. How many Children have Died From an Over does Of a "Mental pill?".. Compare that with how many children Have committed Suicide because there was Nothing for them.. I Like your "attitude" but Don't you Realize these Studies have been going on Longer then even YOU have Been around? So.. Maybe it's a way for them to Nip it in the Bud Before it spreads to Out side behaviors Like Suicide, Shooting up a school, or Using illegal Drugs. Cry all You Want about the "Unfairness" in it all, but you need to look at the WHOLE Picture... The History of WHY these Drugs Were Sought in the FIRST place. This is an Area where if you are ONE SIDED then You have Clouded thoughts. Look at history, Look at behavior and re look at your Statistic. These "Medications" weren't there For the Thousands Who became addicted to something harmful and Died back in the 60's, 70's... 80's.... that is WHAT is trying to be stopped. Can't you see that? It's not perfect, but it seems to be an attempt to Try and alter the Course. It's more then any one else has attempted to do.
od dear shit, PH....i originally gelled with you. now i feel completely at odds with you......! i cannot fathom you. you seem all over theplace with your views. i dont know where to begin to explain te soddin ssue withyou . case one mo you'll agree,and next minute turncoat and back-up big pharma and the shrink boys so tell u what. i am notwastin any more effort on you. capish will just them say this for any intelligent people lsitening, or people will to larn. so-called anti-psychotic drugs are very damaging for an ADULTS nervous system. so to give these evil fukin drugs to children is totally fukin evil. you can not in any way shape r form compare them with psychedelic sacraments. the ltter havebeen used for millenia by Indigenous people etc to HEAL, NOT to forcibly prohibit emotional expression, and thus damage the very nervous system iself. how ayone is not toally shocked by that article is an obscenity in itself. really.!! SHAME ON YOU!
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Crap... I Love your Views Damn it.. I don't always AGREE with em.. I hope you Don't See me as an Effort of Any kind! I Honestly DO like your Views. I was just adding that on the Flip side, here's WHERE these attempts Must be coming from. I should have put that in Better words.. You know, when you Lose some one Close to you you tend to be angry at the Situation that "took" them... you Get this Feeling of "campaign" And you want to Fight what took the person away from you. Or what you Perceived took that person away. If you lose a child to a Child Molester chances are you Will Campaign to Fight Every Child Molester Out there. If you Lose a Loved one to Psychiatry Failing, Chances are your Going to Fight any thing in the medical Field.. Once Something "hits home" you tend to have stronger views and opinions about it, and go to an Opposite Extreme To Demolish anything that Triggers the adverse Situation... I lost some one I loved very much Because the Fear Of Antidepressants and Antipsychotic was too strong. But He never even TRIED it.. We would Never have Known if it Worked or Didn't because he never took them. But Im selfish thinking that.... He would have been a Different person whether Anxiety took him or medication Muted him... Once he was lost, He was lost for ever... It was up to him to come back.. And He didn't. The Answers For Human aren't as readily Exact as Mathematics are.. But we All need to understand we have more alternatives Now.. My parents Refused to Put me on any medication when I more then Likely Needed it the most. As soon as things Became bad enough in my life that I didn't care any more... I took Some of the Drugs... And in Two Cases I was worse off then I was before the Drug. Finally I ended up institutionalized, Placed in a 5 point, with a room with one mattress. I was so Exhausted and tired of me, and tired of them that I took the damned pills... and after a few days my thinking cleared up. I was FEELING better. I had an interest in things that I had never been interested in before.. and I can't help but think, with all I had done and been through as a teen, Would these Drugs have Worked for me back then too before I messed up So bad that things weren't recoverable? Some people literally Have mental Problems. That they WANT Solved. And in the case of a Parent, the Fear and anxiety is stressed so Much that you Become Desperate to stop your child before Something might start. Especially if it hit home some how. Do you See that? That's What I meant.. I don't think any one has the "answers" ... But I can't help but think if My parents hadn't been so "anti Drug" I might be in a better Place.... I was on the other Extreme I am afraid... So Don't readily Despise these drugs.. Some people really need them... That is what I mean to say.. But you are right, Drugs are to Quickly being given to Stop a problem Before it happens, before any one will even know if it's going to happen... so.. There Dose need to be some thing to stop that.. You are VERY Right in a Lot of ways.. a "happy medium" should be sought!!
we are talking about CHILDREN. this harma-psychiatric bio-assault is a S C A M. is false. there is no biological diseaese. it is not prven. hencve where there is no disease it needs no medication. PERIOD. what dos neeed looking urgently at is what WE ae doing. the set-up we have created! tese drugs they give for 'ADHD' and 'psychosis' --the latter being diagnosed on 'troublesome' kids are TOXIC! are haremful forthe body. so how much MORE so for te still-developing bodies of young children this ENORMOUSLY serious situation does not need justfying or apologizing for. that makes me more angry. to 'put up with it' cause abc, is to support this evil.
Duendys Report.. It IS very scary.. I Take back My Origional Post!!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! CHICAGO - Soaring numbers of American children are being prescribed anti-psychotic drugs — in many cases, for attention deficit disorder or other behavioral problems for which these medications have not been proven to work, a study found. The annual number of children prescribed anti-psychotic drugs jumped fivefold between 1995 and 2002, to an estimated 2.5 million, the study said. That is an increase from 8.6 out of every 1,000 children in the mid-1990s to nearly 40 out of 1,000. But more than half of the prescriptions were for attention deficit and other non-psychotic conditions, the researchers said. The findings are worrisome "because it looks like these medications are being used for large numbers of children in a setting where we don't know if they work," said lead author Dr. William Cooper, a pediatrician at Vanderbilt Children's Hospital. The increasing use of anti-psychotics since the mid-1990s corresponds with the introduction of costly and heavily marketed medications such as Zyprexa and Risperdal. The packaging information for both says their safety and effectiveness in children have not been established. Anti-psychotics are intended for use against schizophrenia and other psychotic illnesses. However, attention deficit disorder is sometimes accompanied by temper outbursts and other disruptive behavior. As a result, some doctors prescribe anti-psychotics to these children to calm them down — a strategy some doctors and parents say works. The drugs, which typically cost several dollars per pill, are considered safer than older anti-psychotics — at least in adults — but they still can have serious side effects, including weight gain, elevated cholesterol and diabetes. Anecdotal evidence suggests similar side effects occur in children, but large-scale studies of youngsters are needed, Cooper said. The researchers analyzed data on youngsters age 13 on average who were involved in annual national health surveys. The surveys involved prescriptions given during 119,752 doctor visits. The researchers used that data to come up with national estimates. Cooper said some of the increases might reflect repeat prescriptions given to the same child, but he said that is unlikely and noted that his findings echo results from smaller studies. The study appears in the March-April edition of the journal Ambulatory Pediatrics. Heavy marketing by drug companies probably contributed to the increase in the use of anti-psychotic drugs among children, said Dr. Daniel Safer, a psychiatrist affiliated with Johns Hopkins University, who called the potential side effects a concern. Safer said a few of his child patients with behavior problems are on the drugs after they were prescribed by other doctors. Safer said he has let these children continue on the drugs, but at low doses, and he also does periodic tests for high cholesterol or warning signs of diabetes. Dr. David Fassler, a University of Vermont psychiatry professor, said more research is needed before anti-psychotics should be considered standard treatment for attention deficit disorders in children. "Given the frequency with which these medications are being used, there's no question that we need additional studies on both safety and efficacy in pediatric populations," Fassler said.
Duendy, PHP, it is a very disturbing but anticipated result. We as race are in deep shit and there seems to be nothing we can do to get out of it. On one hand we know that the use of medicated solutions prevents a better solution from being found. We know that possibly in another 3 or 4 generations every single person in the western world will be dependant of some form of psycho medications on a daily and life long basis. We know that the suffering we must endure to find a better solution [ with out the use of drugs] is unaccepted by society at large. A parent simply can not allow their child to suffer if they know that there is a pill that can diminish it, even if it means that their child is now dependant on that drug and it's side effects. A sad and sorry state all this is. All the more reason to find a more holistic alternative.... Example: Years ago before pain killers such as paracetamol [ panadol ] were created people used to change their behaviour so as to avoid stress related head aches and such. Now of course "panadol" is carried by just about every one and is used by just about every one intead of changing their life styles. So even now as a society we are addicted to the simple pain killer that allows us to maintain our stressful states. Thus the pill actually stops the evolution of a solution. A child with ADD is responding to pressure that is being applied in him. His brainis over loaded and his behaviour is distorted. We give them a drug to stupify instead of changing the lifestyle that generates the pressure. It is of course a lot harder to change your lifestyle than it is to pop a pill but the price we all pay in the end is a race of people dependent on medication to sustain itself. Does this help knowing this? Not one bit as even I as a parent would be tempted to take the easy path just like every one else. It is interesting that on one hand we underestimate the severity of the problem. When some one gets a mental health issue it is not a trivial matter. Yet on the other hand we think that a pill is the only solution.
The bottom line is that because society in the west has evolved to the intense level it has and the impossibility of it returning to more relaxed levels is obvious, there is no solution to the problem. Society is also addicted to the so called affluent lifestyles it has created. We like our TV sets, our video games our dish washers and microwwave ovens, we like our mobile phones and our digital computers, we can not just simply throw it all away just because some can not cope with the intensity of modern life. But we fail to see that it is not just someone else that is failing to cope but ourselves as well. So a solution to this problem is impossible to be achieved By "normal " means. The mere mention of a life without TV will send most people reaching into their wallets and hand bags searching for a panadol.
I honestly don't like that. I think it's wrong. If society is wrong then it is wrong. Perod. If it is right then, of course it's right. If we could only give the truth to the ignorant people, they might accept it. -b
YES, i agree exista. al this talk that society is, so imust be tat is really self-deafeating and conformist. you HAVE to be integral about this. ONCE you begin seeing throug the sorry game---which, you know, includes millions of children abused with mindbody destroying State drugs - there's N O going back!!!
The Biggest Thing That is Concerning me in the Whole "child ADD Mental Disorder" Crap, is How "REAL" Is it? When you Break Down "symptoms" Of ADD and such, You will find that Almost Every single Child, no Matter How they are brought up, will experience Periods of Defiance, Self destructive behavior. The Idea behind ADD Was to Stop a Serious Problem That Effected Children that Did Step out of the boundaries of the "norm". I Feel that parents and teachers are So Terrified of the IDEA of another Columbine, that they are quick to medicate any child who show's signs of "difference". So I looked around to Check out this epidemic. What I found was this list of signs to detect ADD and ADHD In your Child.. Hell according to THESE Lists, I HAVE IT too!? In my experience with children, and not just my own, this happens too all kids. Are our "rules" about being a kid too strict? Signs of hyperactive behavior Almost constantly fidgeting and being restless Not sitting in the same seat for very long Running or climbing at wrong time or place Talking too much Always playing too loudly Always "on the go" Blurting out answers to questions in school Cutting in line or being unable to wait for a turn in activities Interrupting others Signs of an attention problem Difficulty following instructions Not seeming to listen to parents or teachers Not being able to focus on activities Frequently losing things needed for school or at home Not being able to pay attention to details Appearing disorganized Being unable to plan ahead effectively Being forgetful Appearing very distractible It pisses me off. THIS is the Criteria.... *Scratching head*.... Are we as a society expecting too much from children? What are we trying to "Stop"? We have a "war on Drugs" and yet Most parents will be quick too turn to pills, As I found out after some Searching. A darker side, is how the Law has stepped in. You will be severally punished for the Behavior of your child, How ever there are only FEW options on how you are to Punish your child. To Place your child in a room and shutting the door is considered abuse.. Spanking a child who is 10 and older on the behind is considered Sexual abuse... To slap a child across the face is Considered a Horrific abuse. The list goes on and on and on. Using a wooden spoon to spank a child is considered using a weapon... How ever, As a parent YOU are responsible For any kind of Miss behavior your child presents. So Duendy, I think I understand what you mean about society and it being a Scam. Being MADE to Conform. And how better to do it then to Set people up for failure with their own children. Have them forced into believing that this behavior can lead to a child drug abuse and misbehavior in school.. and if you don't medicate them, then you as a parent are held accountable for the Childs actions. it seems to me that it is a lose lose situation. And the list gets weird when you Look at the parents who have Sick children with cancers and other problems... by law the parent can be healed accountable if the child dies because they weren't given "Proven to work medication". These parents of dead children end up paying fines and even going to prisons some times because "medicine said The death could have been prevented".... So there's this Invisible "force" that pushes us to use Medication in a lot of ways, and if You Don't you can be held accountable. Wheres justice in that?????
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Thank YOU duendy! I actually think it's a process that needs to be waited on and studied though, and as I said in the "Plato" thread in the politics section, not even the collages realize it. At least, it needs to be, rather I need to know that it needs to be recognized, understood, taken care of... before I sit back and relax Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
