Psychosis ~What is it?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Quantum Quack, Mar 4, 2006.

1. PHPlatonicaIm over myself now...Registered Senior Member

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Well

damn it... Im sorry brent... Did You Check out the Indigo Children's site I posted?

3. TnerbBannedBanned

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Nah. I'm only interested in calming down. Running away and dying.. no, not gonna die. But I am definately going to calm down

(hear sarcasm in the laugh?)

5. PHPlatonicaIm over myself now...Registered Senior Member

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yea I hear ya.. I thought that site would give you something interesting to read... but... What happend? Did Some one Piss you off??

7. TnerbBannedBanned

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Sorry but i'm already pissed off. Thanks to that though i will check it out. thanx

8. PHPlatonicaIm over myself now...Registered Senior Member

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...... Hey Brent, We could like, always pick on Meta till you feel better? He Loves it when we pick on him Im sure of it *grin*

9. MetaKronRegistered Senior Member

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No, no children.

Also, thank you for the link. I will look into it.

Last edited: Mar 17, 2006
10. TnerbBannedBanned

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Nah, this thread is goin haywire.
I won't feel better, any time too soon.............
I do have this book to sorta keep me company though. And I'm afraid i have OCD.

11. PHPlatonicaIm over myself now...Registered Senior Member

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554
........ sorry. Well.. I hope every thing clears itself up? or gets better for you son

12. PHPlatonicaIm over myself now...Registered Senior Member

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554
uhm make that SOON.. not SON lol

13. TnerbBannedBanned

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Yeah, lol is right. I have found buddhism to be a very very cool tool and practice.
So, I was wondering QQ, if you deem worthy a reply to my post? It is the long post, I believe it to be the seccond to the last one on page 26....

14. Quantum QuackLife's a tease...Valued Senior Member

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Sorry Brent, I have been a little busy but am getting to it....

15. Quantum QuackLife's a tease...Valued Senior Member

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Brent one of the reasons I have had not responed to your post is that it is actually very diffficult to respond to. You have made certain extensions to what I have written and now I find I need to justify why those extensions are not valid.
For example you suggest that I am saying that psychosis is driven by an "evil" force. That people are attempting to hide it's truth etc etc...All of which is not what I intended with my commentary.

I am referring to psychosis purely on the value system of self benefit and comfort. Issues such as "evil" are not terms I have used or would wish to introduce. If "evil" refers to something that causes suffering or pain then this word needs to be clarified as to it's meaning because sufference and pain are also "good" too.

Addiction and compulsion are also not necessaryilly negative values. For example people are addicted to life and living. Breathing fro example is also a state of addiction and compulsion. Would you consider breathing to be a psychosis?

Behaviours that attract the word psychotic [ as a point of discussion] are behaviours where by the witness can not make sense of the rational being used and the behaviour is obviously detrimental to the best interests of that person however at the time the person has lost the insight needed to determine this for themselves.

Psychosis is a loss of self awareness or self insight that leads to behaviours that are self justified due to that lack of self awareness and insight.....[proposition for discussion]

If they and society liked it, it wouldn't be considered as psychosis would it?

What I like or dislike is not so much the issue.
You pose a good question with "How are the best interests determined?" If we can find an answer to that the "human dilemma" just becomes that much more irrelevant. It is something we all try to determine all the time and some just are not too good at it. Was invadng Iraq in the best interests of the USA?

Big question, with even a bigger answer no doubt.

No I am not, however this is what you fear isn't it? If I thought so I wouldn't be bothering with this thread.
It is however in some cases extremely difficult to fix. An awful lot of work and time needs to pass in most cases. A lot of soul searching and belly gazing. Learning to have insight is not easy and takes much suffering. But it is possible and as you know it is also a do or die effort, it can only be approached with very strong resolve, patience and courage. I used to use the term "success or die trying". As you know with depression mental illnesses can be in outcomes quite terminal. However if you make mental health your lifes purpose you have a chance at success.

Because the suffering it creates is not worth the fleeting pleasure it provides.
The value system of suffering vs pleasure is distorted, the long term success of the person is not being considered properly.

Psychosis is always a saddening thing, and certainly I would not blame any one as in some ways psychosis is a part of the "human dilemma" and the evolution of humanity in general.
"For example: It is not the fault of my father that his father beat him as a kid, nor is it the fault of his fathers father that he was also beaten as a kid and so on. However slowly we evolve [generational] and eventually someone says "No" to applying a beating to their child and the cycle is broken."

It is only irrational becasue we do not understand why it is.

And yes every single thought we have is in some way a part of this suffering and relief of suffering [ pleasure] cycle. Unfortuately for some it has more dynamic and can be distressing.

The mere fact that you can write a post and communicate at all is a very positive sign Brent. There are so many that can't

No not at all addiction is in fact very rational when yo consider the suffering/ pleasure aspects. The irresistability and compulsion all stem from teh very stuff that keeps us alive and striving fro survival, it is a mere distortion of those fundamentals, this it is not irrational. In fact quite rational when you think about it.

Well it drives every one else, so it must include you. IMO

Not at all I am merely pointing out the degree of their challenge to find success. As I have said earlier, some of these distortions are very difficult to rectify and can take a life tme to fix. By attempting to understand the nature of the beast we have the greatest chance of success, hence this thread.

By all means disagree......doesn't change my opinion of the high value of your input though

Please note: I am only expressing an opinion as part of a discussion and thus should be regarded as merely that.

Last edited: Mar 18, 2006
16. PHPlatonicaIm over myself now...Registered Senior Member

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554
This Is cool

Next, Dr. Fenton discusses what's going on in the brain during psychosis. He says there is evidence that psychosis springs from a defect in the brain's filtering system, probably located in the thalamus, which distorts the mind's ability to determine whether information is coming from inside the body or from an outside source. The neurotransmitter dopamine appears to be involved; in fact, psychoses arising from met amphetamine or cocaine abuse can be treated successfully with agents that block dopamine. Those same agents are also effective in treating psychosis in schizophrenia and manic depressive illness, he says.

17. Quantum QuackLife's a tease...Valued Senior Member

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".......I remember the day a family meeting was called by my younger brothers psychiatrist. He wanted to announce something to us all about Dusan's condition. [ Dusan : Pron: Do-sh-an ]

We all gathered at the family home, and as there were too many some had to sit on the floor. Dusan was sitting behind this doctor with the shame he was feeling deeply hidden from view. A blank sort of look that was trying to be as invisible as possible.
The doctor started by giving a breif description of what Paranoid Schizophrenia was. Something none of us listening had much understanding of. He went on about treatment options and tried to inspire hope in all those listening. But he offered nothing and only took away instead.

I sat there listening to this and when the doctor finished and asked for questions I put up my hand, and asked if there were any theraputic solutions such as counceling or any thing we as a family could do to support and help our family member. I recall that no answer was given. The doctor exposed his sense of futility with his ignoring of the question.

There was nothing any one could do except help Dusan maintain a medication regeim.

I was perplexed that this was the prevailing attitude but accepted it as I really had no idea of this illness or it's prognosis. In fact it was the first time I had heard that my brother had a "condition" that warranted such intervention. I was shocked and numb by what I felt was a giving up and ashamed that as a familiy we just stood there and accepted this doctors opinion as if he was a God or something.

The doctor of course didn't mention that the diagnosis had certain societal ramifications such as pensions and Dusans employment options were drastically reduced.

Any way, after the meeting I asked Dusan to go for a walk with me to a local park, not far away. The first time I had ever done this, and the intimacy was intense. I asked him if he thought he was "crazy" and he admitted he didn't know and that he had to rely on the doctors and others to determine that as he was divested of any power to make that opinion, for no matter how much he claimed to the contrary his opinoin was now of such low credibility he simply had nothing to say.

It was on this day that I came to learn of the beautiful man my brother had grown to be and just how sane and strong he was.

No tears that day nor any until the day he took his life by himself in some Salvation Army Hostel alone and with out hope a decade later at the age of 27.
No hope was offered, no therapy, no choices , and no future, just ineffective and painful medcation and guilty silence........he spent that decade dealing with his condition as sanely as any one could...sanely fighting insanity not only of his own and by his own but also the insanity of what was being dealt and acted upon him......"

Sorry ...just feeling a little sentimental at the moment and thought I'd share a little

Last edited: Mar 18, 2006
18. TnerbBannedBanned

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QQ you're great man........ Picked up this book recently, more ego trip for un-just reason and lovey dovey being put down (impossible self fix!!!!!!!!!). I really liked your reply, sorry i'm a castrated freak hater. anyway.
I also have "The Dharma of Star Wars" (which is amazing)
And the new one is "Buddhism With an Attitude" (you should check this one out)......

I will reply .. asap. That was an amazing post.

19. PHPlatonicaIm over myself now...Registered Senior Member

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554
Some of what IS Being Studied in Science.
http://www.mirecc.org/mindview.shtml

Ok.. This is not Meant to cause Chaos. Any one Who has been involved with some one who has suffered From a traumatic Psychological Phenomenon (Patient or family) knows all to well the Strangeness of the Situation. I Do not know anything about Dusan. But Obviously there was a suffering there to some extent, that made him OR Had Him Turn to Psychology For an Answer. Is it at all Possible that even with out the Chemicals given to him, that he would have committed Suicide Eventually Any way?
A Part on a Family member is that if one Cares Deeply about some one who is suffering From Society, or an Actual Physically Enhanced Psychological Condition that Some how ended them up in a Physiologists Office, is it not the Loving Concern of the "family" Member to step in and ask More questions? Not a lot of people Could. Because Not a lot of people Know ENOUGH about the Condition. Education Is Key Here. And the Education and History we have to go on comes Directly FROM the Psychiatric Filed as a whole. Other wise it would have a Different name, Yes?
So... is IT POSSIBLE that Whether Dusan Sought Help on his own, or was Forced too, Or if he did NOT, that he may have ended up Taking his Own Life Regardless? And then, who would have been to Blame?
It's Easy to Force Blame on a Practice that Did not Succeed In HELPING When there was HOPE of help. There have been More cases Where People Lost loved ones due to suicide where after the Fact they CRIED "IF ONLY I HAD KNOWN SOMETHING WAS WRONG?".... So It IS Possible that Dusan, and Of course I know nothing of him, Lived a Bit LONGER then He would have BECAUSE Help was Sought? And it Failed him. It Failed him The Way the Judicial System Has Failed Innocent people. It Failed him the Way Metkrons Mother failed In Parenting him. What about the people Who have actually found Help in the Field? The Praise for that Doesn't even come Close in Comparison to the BLAME Put on the Field. But notice this, how often is a Child "praised" every time something Right and good has happened compared to The Punishment Given When they Have done something bad? We Accept "Good" as "Yes that's the way it's supposed to be Period".. Why Should I THANK Any one For Obeying the stop Light? They were SUPPOSED TOO... But The penalty For NOT Obeying that Stop light is Hefty. Especially if it causes an accident. See? it applies..
So the POSSIBILITY That Dusan MAY Have taken his own life Regardless of Treatment or not, is still there.
Now Ask your self this. If your Child or Wife Or Husband is in the hospital with a Sever Concussion would you Like the Care Given to them Medically to come From a patient who can't determine their OWN Reality>? What about a Bus Driver, simple Job. Who has a Psychological "attack" while bussing your Children to school. And Suddenly there is a FEAR that there is Something in the street, and the Bus is in an accident? We Wouldn't let our Children on a Bus with some one who Has Gotten Drunk and impaired their ability to Drive. How about a 90 year old with bad Eye sight and one Leg? We wouldn't. for VERY Obvious Reasons.
How about Giving Some one with a Anger problem the Job of a Police Officer? We have SEEN that happen. So When you KNOW that there was a Problem of some kind in a person, Why place them in a situation that may have a fatal Out come for more then Just them? If the "Possibility" Out Weighs the Personal freedom.......... I mean COME ON?
this is what is faced all the time. It's an Area that is CONTAINABLE. Not perfect, and not always fair, but it is Containable. So where is "love" in this? Well it should come from the Family.. And you know what, Not all Families Can "love" some one who Has changed into a Whole different Person. Look at Alzheimer's. The person Changes into some one, something else. They become Dangerous to the WHOLE. What about the mentally Ill patients we see on the Streets. The ones talking to them selves? a Complete loss of basic "reality"... Should we Give them a Gun and a Police Car? ............... Should we Give them that OPTION at ALL? if So then We might as Well Give a 10 year old the Same options.
The Mental Field Is not "PERFECT".. Infact NOTHING Humans Do IS PERFECT. But we Don't Have a Being who is PHYSICALLY HERE Telling us Exactly what needs to Be Done and How. it's is Our Duty to HELP each other. but it is ALSO our DUTY To Protect Each other Too. What if We lived like most creatures and Killed out right any albino or Disabled Creature because the possibility Of "Genetic Defect" was there. Eventually, and in Time if that Defect were aloud to Continue it could effect the WHOLE, or It Could Evolve the Whole. As Humans, WE know that.. That's why to try to Protect. We are smart. Just, not "Perfect."
Ask your selves how many times you have Heard "Well if I HAD KNOWN that this had happened before, I would have never Done it....." how many times have you said it to your selves?
All the Mental Field, and STUDY of, can DO Is test, Compare, Hope and Don't Give up.
Am I wrong?
Do you all know that for 100 dreds of years, since tobacco was introduced, People had lung problems? Infact a lot of people, common sense, Attributed lung disorders with smoking. Even Documented it. It wasn't until the Tobacco Companies who KNEW society KNEW this, LIED on Pen and Paper, about smoking NOT being addicting. Once the LIE was Written Down, all those People had Some one to BLAME For their Own behavior. Is this what we should do the Mental health Professionals And Scientists who are trying? Or are we Going to ACCEPT That they are also Prone to Making Mistakes too. A Problem I see In the Filed is this Narcissistic View a LOT of these "professionals" have. Did you know that is also a recognized Mental Condition that is not "accepted" by the Populace?
It is Our Responsibility To Realize that No one "Has all the Answers".. It is our Own Responsibility to control our own Behavior. And it is also Our Own responsibility to Protect our selves, and each other. Even if that means Putting Grandpa in a Retirement home and taking his Keys away because He can no longer function on a level that is safe for every one.

20. Quantum QuackLife's a tease...Valued Senior Member

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Thanks PHP, wise words....

It is I guess very important to remember that these tragic situations can only be dealt with in the best way we can at the time we can.

In Dusans case medical intervention was a "God send", yet it was far from being adequate in solving his problems. It was simply doing the best we could at the time . Possibly we just expect too much from a tiny pill. Where hope and reality are in conflict.

It could be speculated that with out medication Dusans life may have ended much earlier and so on.

So it IS worth keeping it all in perspective hey?

May be though there is something to be gained by this aspect of the problem, and that is "Grief is not always expressed in rational and sane ways"

Grieving the loss of a loved one's life or sanity can prove to be a very vexing time.

Grieving the loss of your own integrity, work career, future etc, is not expressed always in rational and productive ways.

I do recall now how after having my stroke the grieving I had to do to get over the tremendous loss of mental / body integrity. A difficult time and I must admit my expression of such may have been far from rational although expected at the time. However, this is all a part of adapting to new circumstances and getting to a better position where by a future can be seen.

So I wonder how important grief plays in defining our word "psychosis"
I do realise that at first there appears to be very little relevance, yet I know that when casting off an incorrect belief or "delusion" one must grieve the loss of that belief before a new belief can be fully accepted.
Possibly in part, why telling a person he is paranoid creates such an angry response.

21. TnerbBannedBanned

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I think that maybe we can decide how the person exists. There are many theories out there. Buddhist theory in my knowledge expresses how the individual is, (this, of course, includes even the people inflicted with the deepest psychosis!) as far as goes the very source and the very every detail to every individual. Such stuff is out there, huh? Amazing clouds a flying! The people in the world and this is every human being, is subject to such. Is this also an extention to the possibility of the above? How can we consider this? Pragmatic views, the views of psychosis....? How can we start, then?.... [just trying to get started--again!]

Now, when you say it is a loss of self awareness or self insight, certainly all individuals that are in the case, psychotic (if you can deal with my criticalness), don't have a loss of self awareness (perhaps a certain form--) or insight (unless of a certain form?). Ah yes, it is too hard to read you

I see now. You specifically do say that it is a loss of this or that that leads to behaviours that are self justified DUE to this lack of (which is the proposition for discussion):

This being proposition for discussion, psychosis is of such a form with whatever cause which leads to such degenerative forms or .. heh certain forms for the individual as you describe, I don't see much less of a better defination.. Certainly psychosis can also be other things of course you would agree. I think we will get to these things. Evil forces and supernatural experiences (though I hate to talk like this), such that psychosis .. is because of. Psychosis is certainly :

Lack of these certain things and as well as dysfunctioning. The individual being dis-torted and such we have already talked about. Let's go on.

[/quote]
No. I agree entirely. I simply want to be able to have this ability to put "psychosis ~What is it" in to a frame -working so that we can define, I say, what it is we are talking about.

I believe that as well is an irrelevent question

I believe that because I cannot know as me. I can't tell. I think society needs changing. But I shut up. I stay me. And I wonder ...I think best interensts are able to be determinend. I think there is a greater deminsion. I think such exists.

Maybe. Why? How do you know? Anything to tell me about this in relation to psychosis? Eh? Well? Do you (delete smiley) Common. What the heck. Why? Can you tell me if this has anything to do with psychosis or what?

I like your term of "mental health", the term is obviously over looked by a lot of people. And I am proud to say the least of your abilitys to create this thread. To say the least! Here is then my proposition:

[Psychosis is already defined. What else do we need to know? Rather what further questions do we need to ask or not ask? Where are we now? How do we approach?]

I ask you to please define this sentence. (and the paragraph continues... geesh)
I cannot say that this is the case in all of psychosis. It seems to me like you are looking at it like "attack... kill!" sort of stuff... I'm starting to pull a light. I need to quit! I do like your terms.

I am sorry I don't even read you right. You ... telepathy man you!!(deletes important smiley)

I am very much liking that idea right now. It is very difficult huh? Where are we at, anyway? (checks watch*---doesn't have a watch*)

22. TnerbBannedBanned

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hehaha... lol qq..

Indeed I would ask you as well to define how you are explaining the individual who has never thought has value soley on the value of self benefit and comfort.
But I can define my terms.
... Sufferance and pain are good too I can agree with that.

I believe that the evil force I am describing... can have various definations. I am suggesting here that the evil force is something that penetrates ones actions and that no person is without it; I am suggesting that although sufference and pain caused from evil are good too, that ... geez you're about to make me start jumping up yelling and ranting and raving!

Slams Door



Yells from inside,
(
)
"All behaviors are subject to questiong from a single, evil source"

"You don't understand the value that psychosis has for someone when the whole damn basis for someones being is being in this one feature which is his core which is how he lives dammit which is the damn reason I am slamming the door, which is why someone talks and is talking from something, which is psychosis, which everyone has which is something that you don't know which is evil, which is the natural evil in every individual you QQ!
"

23. Quantum QuackLife's a tease...Valued Senior Member

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23,267
Yep it sure is a confusing subject.

Psychosis is afterall a very subjective descriptor. It is always relative to the person's doing the describing level of experience and understanding.

As Duendy would probably say psychosis is a myth, a conditioning that society has placed upon it's members etc etc. [ which in absolutism I would agree.....however in practice this is not necessarilly a definition that serves the user well enough]

The society will determine psychosis using the rational that is in favour at the time of diagnosis and so on....psychosis also is subject to fashion.

So yes it is a terribly vexed and difficult thing to define. Yet there is ample evidence of psychosis or psychotic behaviour when dealing with extremes that come up in the news media some times.

"Ie; man attacks priest with a feather thinking that the feather is a knife and the priest is an agent of the devil." an obvious act that would be defined as psychotic yes?

However we are attempting to define a more subtle form of psychosis possibly and gettng all caught up in the detail.

It is difficult and due to it's subjective nature I do not feel it will ever be adequately defined, except to say when reality and mind mismatch in regards to material objects such as feather and knife we have an obvious form of psychosis. Regarding the priest and the devil, this is a little harder to define. But surely the knife and the feather example would be clearly a demonstration of reality versus mind conflict.

Is it worth bringing to the discussions such extremes merely to prove a point or is it best to leave it aside?

I used to believe that sanity is only available when reality matches what you think or what mental abstraction you hold in your head, but have since found that fantasy and escapism [ fiction] is also essential to mental health but obviously the ability to determine the difference between fact and fiction, speculation and actuality, reality and delusion etc is what we are talking about yes?

It is obvious that all people have a constant difficulty with these determinations it is just that some have a greater degree of difficulty than others......