Protection against projective identification - resources?

PI is the reaction you would expect whether the impetus was projection or not. In the first example I quoted, police will naturally pay more attention to those who act suspiciously, just as they are trained to do. "False projection"? All projection is false, and people typically believe the actions of others. It only takes perception to accept something at face value.

And no, I am not interested in your off-topic spam. Make a new thread if your really want me to take that seriously.

Science is not possible without some acceptance that [a] there is an objective reality and we can contact it. These are necessary to empirical evidence, which is the basis of all scientific progress. It is a false dilemma (black and white thinking) to think that our ever-improving understanding necessitates no objective reality.

 

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Yes guys, please stop fighting.

Although I am awkwardly aroused, it still makes me want to cry.

 

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wynn,

I would like to get your opinion of the statement by Syne quoted below:

Do you agree or disagree with Syne's repeated characterization of my posts as off topic spam? Since you are the OP, perhaps you could say something to him so I don't have to.

---Futilitist

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Why not just make the case for a connection already? Can you not manage the simplest of arguments to support your bare assertions? This is a science forum after all.

 

People in subordinate positions are on principle the ones who have to pay for the errors of the superiors.

When projection is coupled with denial and plain old bad logic, this results in false accusations. As a subordinate, it is on principle very difficult to clear one's name of false accusations. Even if false, they tarnish one's reputation.

PI has an element of introjection, introjection being a defense mechanism:

PI happens before one even knows it.

In one sense, the connection between mimetic theory and PI is self-evident: we pick up (ie. introject) other people's desires, because (as per MT) all of our desires are borrowed from other people.

 

You two have a case of PI going on right here! And to some extent, it involves some other posters as well.

 

Projection always includes denial, that is the whole point of projection. False accusations are likely, considering the person projecting is falsely attributing their own faults onto others. If a person stays in a potentially detrimental situation then this points to issues of their own. It is likely that such a person projects their own lack of foresight into their boss, thus seeking to absolve themselves of responsibility. If the boss then does a PI of this projection he may jump to conclusions seeking to anticipate things too far in advance.

But again, you do not provide enough detail to analyze. What false accusations that could tarnish one's reputation?

The defense mentioned is projection, not PI. PI is a natural result of human interaction, which projection tends to exploit. Also, you need to define introjection, as there are several definitions. The one you seem to be using is Freud's, but in that sense it is not necessarily a defense, but only "use[d] as a defense mechanism". In some sense, all learning is essentially introjective.

Projective identification thus designates a psychological process in which a person engages in the ego defense mechanism of projection in such a way that their behavior towards the object of projection invokes in that person precisely the thoughts, feelings or behaviors projected.
...
Projective identification is believed to be a very early or primitive psychological process and is understood to be one of the more primitive defense mechanisms. Yet it is also thought to be the basis of more mature psychological processes like empathy and intuition. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_identification​

Not necessarily:

The second person is influenced by the projection and begins to behave as though he or she is in fact actually characterized by the projected thoughts or beliefs, a process that may happen outside the awareness of both parties involved. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_identification​

No, we introject based on other people's actions. Their desires, to deny their own faults, etc., are not apparent and not internalized by others. Neither are "all" desires borrowed, as that would either require each new desire to arise spontaneously or an infinite regress without any explanatory power.

As I already said: "No, you are the one projecting, and those who respond to you, myself included, are the one making the projective identification."

 

i was merely curious about your posting habits here which appear to be less distracted from the OP than in the TSF.org + i found this thread of sufficient interest to decide to make the odd contribution here and there - who knows i'll relapse into another 5-year torpor, but there you go ...

just to make it clear, i don't have any bone to pick with you, and i wish my posts here to stand independent of any other i may have made elsewhere

 

???

marnixR,

This is not the place to be discussing our personal issues, but I do feel that I must answer you. Since we are, in fact, having a mimetic rivalry, and the OP agrees that mimetic theory is on topic for the thread, this short answer hopefully shouldn't be too much of a problem for anyone.

1. I made an issue of the fact that you just happened to begin posting again on sciforums.com after nearly a five year absence. You also just happened to post on a thread that I am participating in. (see post #22)

2. Your response was that you were merely responding to a dogmatic remark by Syne. You did not directly address what I was clearly accusing you of, which is that you are following me around trying to smear my reputation. (see post #36)

3. I answered back by pointing out that your answer seems a bit evasive. I suggested that the two of us were trapped in a mimetic rivalry, which is a true statement. I offered to reach out to you with a truce, so that the matter could finally be resolved. (see post #38)

4. You now admit that the reason you are here is that you were merely curious about my posting habits! You go on to characterize my posting habits as being an improvement upon my former posting habits, saying that they are "less distracted from the OP than in the TSF.org". So you are saying, in effect, that there is normally something wrong with my posting habits, but that this is a refreshing change. Thank you, I guess. I should point out that I was the original poster on the threads in question at TSF.org, which you have now brought up on this thread, though my posting habits are certainly not related to the current OP topic of this thread, are they?

I offered you a truce, and your answer is that there is no war in the first place! Nice. And you managed to smear me and my posting habits with your backhanded, off topic compliment.

You go on to say:

It really does seem like you do have a bone to pick with me. So here, in the interest of staying on topic, is my mimetic answer to your statement:

Just to make it clear, I don't have any bone to pick with you, and I wish my posts here to stand independent of any other I may have made elsewhere.

I guess that is probably the best we can hope for right now. Thank you.

---Futilitist

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???

duplicate post due to bug.

 

Who is who?

wynn, can you explain your statement above more fully?

You suggest that Syne and I have a case of PI going on here.

Who in this current conversation is A? (from the wiki quote above)

Who is B?

Who is engaging "in the ego defense mechanism of projection in such a way that their behavior towards the object of projection invokes in that person precisely the thoughts, feelings or behaviors projected"?

Which other posters are involved?

---Futilitist

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** shrug **

if my contributions make you feel defensive, then it's time for me to make myself scarce
see you at the end of the next 5-year hibernation spell which i intend to start as of now

 

Ok

**shrug**

OK. Your choice. Till we meet again...

---Futilitist

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A question for the OP

wynn,

I would like to put forth a hypothesis that seeks to explain the origins of projective identification by putting it in a much larger context. My hypothesis will attempt to answer many longstanding riddles about human behavior and evolution. It will likely be somewhat controversial, and might be seen by some here as *WAY* off topic.

You are the original poster of this thread. I think it is a good one. If you would rather stick more closely with the original topic, I will save my hypothesis for now, and start another thread about it later.

Please let me know what you think would be best.

---Futilitist

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Maybe you should start a new thread as your thoughts could prove way to awesome.

 

Thanks

Hey thanks, Beer w/Straw!

I am glad that you have taken an interest in my humble posts.

---Futilitist

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I think you should start a new thread then.

 

And yet you are the one who brought up yoru personal issues in the first place.

Obviously you are projecting the paranoia of "let's get him", as you have literally said, and your defensive evasions are irritating enough for me to call you on them.

 

I thought I'd try to get this discussion back on topic, so I searched around a bit. I couldn't find much on protecting one's self from projective identification. I found this course for psychiatrists that I can't make heads or tails of.

http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course064.php

One thing I did notice is that projective identification is affective, meaning that non-verbal cues are important. There are no non-verbal cues on internet discussion forums, so much of the prior discussion may be invalid. Developmental aspects are emphasized as well. Mimetics is mentioned as being important. But the paper is very long and dense. Good luck.

I also found this article that relates projective identification to group behaviors.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-projective-identification.htm

---Futilitist

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The non-verbal/unconscious focus is an artifice of the specific "Learning Objectives":

This is an intermediate to advanced level course. After completing this course, mental health professionals will be able to:

* Describe and apply a clinical model of how projective identification is unconsciously communicated within the therapeutic alliance.
* Explain how right brain circuits are activated in stressful transference-countertransference heightened affective moments.
* Utilize a clinical model for increasing receptivity to the patient’s unconscious communications.
* Discuss how the clinician’s involvement in rupture and repair can promote the patient’s capacity for affect regulation.

(emphasis added)​

That link is about clinical use, not general definition. Mimetic theory is not mentioned, only a "mimetic reaction" without any indication of importance.