# Proofs and evidences of the existence of God

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by dumaurier, Jun 28, 1999.

1. ### dumaurierRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
171
Boris, you understood nothing of my post.

"When a man is set to destroying, he is blinded to all knowledge."

"The blind see naught but their own darkness."

I am not a "Christian" and i wish you would put this through your thick skull!

The truths i have stated have nothing to do with Plato's philosophy.

Period.

------------------
dumaurier

to hide all adverts.
3. ### BorisSenior MemberRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,052
You may not be a Christian, Dumaurier, but you certainly espouse an incredibly Christian view of God and the universe. I never made a claim about your particular religion; however it certainly smacks of Judaism like the sweets smack of sugar -- therefore in debating you, I use Christianity as the butt of my arguments, simply because you have managed to give me no more concrete target, and Christianity seems to fit rather well in any case.

As to whose skull is thicker, it remains to be seen. I do believe I understand your arguments quite well; however I have my doubts when it comes to *your* understanding of *my* arguments.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

to hide all adverts.
5. ### bedlanamGuest

Maybe, as long as neither side is killing anybody (even out of ignorance) -that's all that counts. science is not complete, religion is not complete, both wallow in their own ego. the declaration of understanding is a matter of self worth. to what use does this 'validation' serve? ., -
practical application , or antagonization of the 'uninformed'. wisdom rarely professes itself, knowledge troubles the truth when incomplete. enlightenment and understanding both rise out of relationship and discipline recognized thru relationship. relationship always preceeds. application of interpretation defines the constraints. as i have said before, we are individuals by association. each woman or man are the capacity of buddha, christ, mohammed. development of intelect is reflection of expectation and anticipated resistence. the individual discovers. thought is the contributer to new, everchanging creation whether it is god or science - intelligence is awareness and reason or survival/evolution thru 'awareness'.

to hide all adverts.
7. ### dumaurierRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
171
Boris writes,
"You may not be a Christian, Dumaurier, but you certainly espouse an incredibly Christian view of God and the universe."

Thank you Boris. This i take as a compliment. I happen to believe in Jesus Christ as a Messenger of God sent down by an All-Mighty Forgiving One Whom we cannot thank enough for the forebearance and tolerance He shows all those who were created by His will and yet disbelieve and revile Him. He is the Ever-Forgiving! To me Christ is a blessed Being Who represents one of the links in a progressive chain of Divine Revelations. The influence of the power of His Word extends far and wide, and no one who is devoid of prejudice can deny this fact. What men have done with the Teachings and Name of this blessed, this glorious and saintly Being, cannot be said to be His fault. It is an honour and privilige that God has favoured me with this capacity and gift of being able to love Christ. And i do! One does not have to be "Christian" to love Christ; one does not have to be a Muslim to love Muhammad; One does not have to be a "Buddhist" to love Buddha; and so on. The gulf that separates the Teachings of these Divine Luminaries and their avowed followers is very large indeed. But this shouldn't act as a veil preventing us to see the absolute beauty and greatness of such Holy Manifestations.

Boris writes,
"I never made a claim about your particular religion; however it certainly smacks of Judaism like the sweets smack of sugar..."

I have responded to this in another post where i prove you have claimed this. No need for me to be redundant. However, i must say that in that other post you do excuse yourself for affixing such stereotypic labels on me. I graciously thank you for this. It is appreciated knowing that you do have a heart and do base your conduct on courtesy. Thank you, Boris.

Boris writes,
"As to whose skull is thicker, it remains to be seen."

And here it is my turn to apologize. I didn't mean to insult you in this way. It is easy to get carried away sometimes, as you know, dear Boris. Therefore, i hope you will accept my apologies for having insulted you in any way by the use of this expression.

Boris writes,
"I do believe I understand your arguments quite well; however I have my doubts when it comes to *your* understanding of *my* arguments."

Boris, your arguements against the perspectives that i present are often contradictory to your own ideas. You contradict yourself often. Now, it can become highly frustrating talking to you at times because you do not try to understand what is said in the arguement i have presented for your examination. You seem to jump to conclusions without stopping to ponder, without truly examining the depth of what is presented before your eyes (as in my post concerning the three kinds of formations where you really didn't try to understand what was said but simply lashed out with one personal opinion after another with nothing better to propose.)
In brief, i am under the impression that you are simply trying to defend your points of view and not truly willing to closely examine the perspective i present for your scrutiny. This is due to the fact, i believe, that your one aim is to prove everybody else wrong and you right. This is NOT the way one attains truth; it is not the way scientists behave before a hypothesis that must be proven. Intelligent people don't just brush aside another's arguements. They will examine them first, and then present their perspective. This is "arguement" that may be deemed intelligent. It is why i am now lead to a different approch in our discussions, mainly, that you substantiate what you say with carefully researched materials. This is the challenge i have given you in another post and, of course, i reiterate it here.

May the show continue

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

------------------
dumaurier

8. ### dumaurierRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
171
Bedlanam,

You have a profound understanding. To say that "science is not complete, religion is not complete," is a truth no one can deny. We have talked about the reconciliation of science and religion elsewhere in these posts. I encourage you to read what has been said thus far on the subject.

I would like to understand your words, "knowledge troubles the truth when incomplete." Another poster has already touched on this subject, i believe. However, i'm not certain i understand what you mean. What is "incomplete," knowledge or truth?

These other words you write would require a little more elaboration: "enlightenment and understanding both rise out of relationship and discipline recognized thru relationship."

You also say,
"...we are individuals by association."

Indeed! Humans are social creatures.

A bientot

------------------
dumaurier

9. ### H-konRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
312
Dumarier & Boris

I have to say that this thread started out quite well, but now in the later posts it seems to me that you are all out in a "war" against eachother. You both try to do this the "right" way, but when i read it, i can only find statements, and "mind share".

I know you are all trying, but its not just this thread.. I have noticed that when ever one of you post something, the other is right there to "debunk".

This discussion is really way out of my league in many ways, but at the same time i fail to get something out of it.. Oh. Well. maybe its just me.
------------

Waiting for my brain to boot into English...

10. ### dumaurierRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
171
H-Kon,

I know what you are saying. I must emphasize here that there is nothing wrong with your understanding; it's not you! The fundamental problem here is that we are dealing with an individual who refuses to accept anything that might contradict his views and who indulges in opposing others just to elevate his own ego. By way of example, you'll remember that little analogy Abdu'l-Baha gives about the fact that ignorance is due to the absence of knowledge, darkness to the absence of light, sickness to the absense of health, poverty to the absence of wealth, and so on. Well, this is a fact that nobody in their right mind would deny because it's as clear as day that when knowledge, light, health, wealth come into the equation, ignorance, darkness, sickness, poverty, are all dispelled. So for example, you and i know very well that when we are sick it is because there is an absence of health and the fact that there is health proves that there is sickness; we cannot prove the existence of sickness if there were no health! Moreover, we know that if we walk into a dark room we must turn on the light, but we cannot turn on the darkness! And when we go out of that room we turn off the light and not turn on the darkness! This proves that darkness is powerless and completely dependent on light. Consequently, we say that darkness-equals-evil and goodness-equals-light. By extrapolation, evil is powerless and once replaced with good it vanishes. Well, to most people this is an obvious fact. But Boris, you see, loves to play with words and must always win an arguement to boost his own ego. So, it goes without question that he will oppose and this leads to much confusion. I think this is why you feel somewhat lost when trying to make heads or tails of the ideas posted here. Believe me, your capacity of understanding is not the problem--Boris' ego is!!

The post that opened the subject of this thread argued that God exists and logical arguements were introduced proving that He does. I believe you should refer to that post and forget the rest. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your understanding and you should cease to put yourself down. On the contrary, H-Kon: you are a kind hearted, noble individual and this you have proven over and over again in several of your posts and in your personal emails to me.

May God assist you to find assurance under His protecting wing and to rejoice your heart with His Word that is the source of all knowledge.

Salutations

------------------
dumaurier

11. ### dumaurierRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
171
GOD COMPREHENDS ALL: HE CANNOT BE
COMPREHENDED

Talk given by Abdu'l-Baha in Paris, Friday, October 20th, 1911

Abdu'l-Bahá said: Numerous meetings are held in Paris every day for different purposes, to discuss politics, commerce, education, art, science and many other subjects.

All these meetings are good: but this assembly has met together to turn their faces towards God, to learn how best to work for the good of humanity, to seek how prejudices may be abolished, and the seed of love and universal brotherhood sown in the heart of man.

God approves of the motive of our gathering together and gives us His blessing.

In the Old Testament we read that God said, Let us make man in Our own image'. In the Gospel, Christ said, I am in the Father, and the Father in Me'. In the Qur'án, God says, Man is my Mystery and I am his'. Bahá'u'lláh writes that God says, Thy heart is My home; purify it for My descent. Thy spirit is My place of revelation; cleanse it for My manifestation'.

All these sacred words show us that man is made in God's image: yet the Essence of God is incomprehensible to the human mind, for the finite understanding cannot be applied to this infinite Mystery. God contains all: He cannot be contained. That which contains is superior to that which is contained. The whole is greater than its parts.

Things which are understood by men cannot be outside their capacity for understanding, so that it is impossible for the heart of man to comprehend the nature of the Majesty of God. Our imagination can only picture that which it is able to create.

The power of the understanding differs in degree in the various kingdoms of creation. The mineral, vegetable, and animal realms are each incapable of understanding any creation beyond their own. The mineral cannot imagine the growing power of the plant. The tree cannot understand the power of movement in the animal, neither can it comprehend what it would mean to possess sight, hearing or the sense of smell. These all belong to the physical creation.

Man also shares in this creation; but it is not possible for either of the lower kingdoms to understand that which takes place in the mind of man. The animal cannot realize the intelligence of a human being, he only knows that which is perceived by his animal senses, he cannot imagine anything in the abstract. An animal could not learn that the world is round, that the earth revolves round the sun, or the construction of the electric telegraph. These things are only possible to man. Man is the highest work of creation, the nearest to God of all creatures.

All superior kingdoms are incomprehensible to the inferior; how therefore could it be possible that the creature, man, should understand the almighty Creator of all?

That which we imagine, is not the Reality of God; He, the Unknowable, the Unthinkable, is far beyond the highest conception of man.

All creatures that exist are dependent upon the Divine Bounty. Divine Mercy gives life itself. As the light of the sun shines on the whole world, so the Mercy of the infinite God is shed on all creatures. As the sun ripens the fruits of the earth, and gives life and warmth to all living beings, so shines the Sun of Truth on all souls, filling them with the fire of Divine love and understanding.

The superiority of man over the rest of the created world is seen again in this, that man has a soul in which dwells the divine spirit; the souls of the lower creatures are inferior in their essence.

There is no doubt then, that of all created beings man is the nearest to the nature of God, and therefore receives a greater gift of the Divine Bounty.

The mineral kingdom possesses the power of existing. The plant has the power of existing and growing. The animal, in addition to existence and growth, has the capacity of moving about, and the use of the faculties of the senses. In the human kingdom we find all the attributes of the lower worlds, with much more added thereto. Man is the sum of every previous creation, for he contains them all.

To man is given the special gift of the intellect by which he is able to receive a larger share of the light Divine. The Perfect Man is as a polished mirror reflecting the Sun of Truth, manifesting the attributes of God.

The Lord Christ said, He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father'--God manifested in man.

The sun does not leave his place in the heavens and descend into the mirror, for the actions of ascent and descent, coming and going, do not belong to the Infinite, they are the methods of finite beings. In the Manifestation of God, the perfectly polished mirror, appear the qualities of the Divine in a form that man is capable of comprehending.

This is so simple that all can understand it, and that which we are able to understand we must perforce accept.

Our Father will not hold us responsible for the rejection of dogmas which we are unable either to believe or comprehend, for He is ever infinitely just to His children.

This example is, however, so logical that it can easily be grasped by all minds willing to give it their consideration.

May each one of you become a shining lamp, of which the flame is the Love of God. May your hearts burn with the radiance of unity. May your eyes be illumined with the effulgence of the Sun of Truth!

The city of Paris is very beautiful, a more civilized and well-appointed town in all material development it would be impossible to find in the present world. But the spiritual light has not shone upon her for a long time: her spiritual progress is far behind that of her material civilization. A supreme power is needed to awaken her to the reality of spiritual truth, to breathe the breath of life into her dormant soul. You must all unite in this work of arousing her, in reanimating her people by the help of that Superior Force.

When an illness is slight a small remedy will suffice to heal it, but when the slight illness becomes a terrible disease, then a very strong remedy must be used by the Divine Healer. There are some trees that blossom and bear fruit in a cool climate, others there are which need the hottest rays of the sun to bring them to perfect maturity. Paris is one of those trees for whose spiritual unfoldment a great flaming Sun of the Divine Power of God is needed.

I ask you all, each one of you, to follow well the light of truth, in the Holy Teachings, and God will strengthen you by His Holy Spirit so that you will be enabled to overcome the difficulties, and to destroy the prejudices which cause separation and hatred amongst the people. Let your hearts be filled with the great love of God, let it be felt by all; for every man is a servant of God, and all are entitled to a share of the Divine Bounty.

Especially to those whose thoughts are material and retrograde show the utmost love and patience, thereby winning them into the unity of fellowship by the radiance of your kindness.

If you are faithful to your great work, following the Holy Sun of Truth without swerving, then will the blessed day of universal brotherhood dawn on this beautiful city.

`Abdu'l-Bahá

------------------
dumaurier

12. ### dumaurierRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
171
The benefit in belief in an all-loving God is that it purifies our lives. Here are some gems supporting this truth...

"Be generous in prosperity,
and thankful in adversity.

Be worthy of the trust of thy neighbor,
and look upon him with a bright and friendly face.

Be a treasure to the poor,
an admonisher to the rich,
an answerer to the cry of the needy,
a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge.

Be fair in thy judgment,
and guarded in thy speech.

Be unjust to no man,
and show all meekness to all men.

Be as a lamp unto them that walk in darkness,
a joy to the sorrowful,
a sea for the thirsty,
a haven for the distressed,
an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression.

Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all thine acts.

Be a home for the stranger,
a balm to the suffering,
a tower of strength for the fugitive.

Be eyes to the blind,
and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring.

Be an ornament to the countenance of truth,
a crown to the brow of fidelity,
a pillar of the temple of righteousness,
a breath of life to the body of mankind,
an ensign of the hosts of justice,
a luminary above the horizon of virtue,
a dew to the soil of the human heart,
an ark on the ocean of knowledge,
a sun in the heaven of bounty,
a gem on the diadem of wisdom,
a shining light in the firmament of thy generation,
a fruit upon the tree of humility.

We pray God to protect thee from the heat of jealousy and the cold of hatred.

He verily is nigh, ready to answer."

-- Bahá'u'lláh

------------------
dumaurier

13. ### BorisSenior MemberRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,052
I wager it does take ego to go against the mainstream. If so, then I confess to the charge.

When the argument is concerning an existence vs. nonexistence of something (such as God), only one side can be correct. Therefore, in defending my position I indeed oppose everything Lori (earlier), Dumaurier (now), and quite a few others say or will say. Even if I am the one who is wrong, nobody can possibly prove that -- just as I cannot possibly prove my position and disprove yours. This truly is the assumption that I have been trying to defend all this time.

I cannot stand it when people go and blindly believe in something, and then try to support that irrational belief with pseudo-arguments that can't stand under even the lightest of scrutiny.

You ought to be honest. If you blindly believe in the existence of God, then you must be brave enough to admit so. I, for example, am willing to state that I blindly disbelieve in the existence of God. Although I can give plenty of intuition and reductionist justification for my belief, I realize quite clearly that I do not have, nor will ever possess, a conclusive and final proof one way or another.

It is the claims like Dumaurier's ("proofs and evidences") that I fight whenever I come accross. My stance is: if you can't be 100% rational, try to at least be reasonable and think clearly.

Dumaurier:

You claimed to have found multiple contradictions in my arguments. I challenge you to expose them. I have certainly done the same for your arguments -- and I doubt anybody who have actually had heart enough to wade through our posts would not see what I mean.

<hr>

I dispute the irrational belief in God fundamentally based on an irrational belief of my own -- I readily admit so.

However, casting away God, one also casts away intellectual submission, and the tyranny of the 'pastors'. I sincerely believe that discarding religion is ultimately a liberating experience -- and liberty ought to be far more precious than the pseudo-comfort brought through intellectually tyrannical doctrine. Intellectual submission to any religion is a slippery slope, down which civilizations have slid deep into the darkest depths of depravity and insanity -- from the Inquisition, to the Crusades and Jihads, to racism and divinely institutionalized slavery, to the American Witch Hunts. It is my firm belief that whenever and wherever the seeds of intellectual submission to authority are planted, an infestuous growth will eventually sprout when conditions are ripe.

Not only that, but religion as an institution tends to be a conservative force that does everything possible to smother scientific progress. This can be witnessed in the vehement opposition and utter irrationality that religious individuals mount against any scientific theory that counters their deeply encrusted beliefs. In fact, the very notion of blind faith as something acceptable has driven even scientists to make ridiculous statements concerning such things as origins of life.

As concerns Dumaurier's quotes in support of the religions' virtue, I once again ask you to consider (as I have in another forum) whether the power or usefullness of these teachings would be any lesser if all references to God were removed. I claim that it is indeed possible to instill morality and humanity through intellectual discourse, and appellation to emotion similar to that of the Baha'i texts. It is easily demonstrated that antisocial behavior leads to unhappiness -- this alone ought to be a powerful enough motivator, with no need for appellation to authority of the church, holy figures, or God.

It is my hope that humanity can and eventually will indeed achieve social harmony without religion -- and that this harmony, coupled with the liberation from all the irrationality that religion invites, will be a better state than any harmony involving religious underpinnings (if that is even feasible). I dream of bringing such a result about as expeditiously as possible. While God lights your way, John Lennon's famous song illuminates mine...

Finally, let me state that I believe the mystery and infinite complexity of the universe ought to be enough motivation to live and strive to achieve new heights, and explore new horizons -- and that God or any God-story are no more powerful as motivators or inspirators than the scientific outlook. This is in retort to many who claim that without God and religion, life would be bland and devoid of humanity.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

[This message has been edited by Boris (edited July 18, 1999).]

14. ### dumaurierRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
171
Boris,

I truly appreciate your sincerity.

Presently i am busy working on that presentation i said i would post here with reference to proof that the concept of the nation originated in Islam, of which you have tried to contradict without putting forth any proof supporting your arguement. My research is coming along quite nicely and i will soon be posting my finds here for all to see and judge for themselves wherein lies the truth.

As to answering your other items in the above post, this will be done in time. As i have said to you, proofs and substantiating evidence must come forth from you from now on otherwise i will not enter into any type of discussion with you. I have imposed such a challenge onto myself, as well. Thus, for me to answer that post of yours, above, i will have to dig into some serious research in order that you might see the truth of what i claim. This will require time.

Salutations

PS: Life is not a joke. We are all humans in need of enlightenment and care. Nobody could ever continue loving another whose sole objective is to destroy people's cherished hopes and beliefs. Such an attitude is tyrannical and it is not befitting a human being's character in this day and age of illumination where wonderful and great discoveries on every plane are revealed. If a man makes a great discovery, this is for the benefit of all of humanity, not just for himself. Thus, all research should be done selflessly. We are one great big family on this planet, regardless of the different beliefs--we cannot all be generals or soldiers; a little of both is required. The object of all life is unity, not the contrary. It is only nobility of character which could promote such unity and attain such heights as to make us loveable unto others and allow others to love us. Such nobility of character the Baha'i Faith promotes and encourages, as no doubt you have found out.

------------------
dumaurier

15. ### 2+2Registered Senior Member

Messages:
55
p>dumaurier,you say,&quot;For example, when you look at man, you see that he is
weak.&quot; </p>

<strong><font color="#0000FF">Weak!?&nbsp; What sweeter situation exists anywhere in
the universe, than being a person.&nbsp; And now, even &quot;commoners&quot; like me get a
chance to see the big picture.&nbsp; Feel the power as your brain grasps the new concept,
as old beliefs vaporize when you shed them like last years wardrobe.</font></strong></p>

This very weakness of the creature is a proof of the power of the Eternal Almighty One,
because, if there were no power, weakness could not be imagined. </p>

<strong><font color="#0000FF">If there were no &quot;words&quot; then weakness or power
could not be imagined.&nbsp; Plus I can imagine weakness, and I don't believe in God.</font></strong></p>

In the contingent world there is ignorance; necessarily knowledge exists, because
ignorance is found; for if there were no knowledge, neither would there be ignorance.
Ignorance is the nonexistence of knowledge, <em>and if there were no existence,
nonexistence could not be realized. </em></p>

<strong><font color="#0000FF">Those are my italics...but see existence in the way that
you are speaking of again requires words.&nbsp; One can't think about concepts with out
them.&nbsp; So nonexistence in the sense that you are using it depends on somebody

</p>
</body>
</html>

16. ### dumaurierRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
171
2X2, your post is appreciated.

Abdu'l-Baha says:
"For example, when you look at man, you see that he is weak."

"Weak!? What sweeter situation exists anywhere in the universe, than being a person. And now, even "commoners" like me get a chance to see the big picture. Feel the power as your brain grasps the new concept, as old beliefs vaporize when you shed them like last years wardrobe."

dumaurier responds:
Well, i think by "weak" is meant that we are weak in relationship to the Creator. I agree with you that no greater creation exists in the universe than the human being. In relationship to the material universe man is, indeed, complex, grande, sophisticated, and beautiful. But you will admit that despite this beauty and power conferred upon us by our Creator, despite our wonderful capacities to build great ships that sail the deepest seas or fly in remote and unknown corners of the darkest heavens, despite our superb discoveries in biological and other sciences, you will agree that when that tiniest of germ invisible to the human eye enters our biological system and makes us sick, we are weak. You will agree that we are totally dependent on the elements such as water to quench our thirst, air for our lungs, and so on. You will agree, too, that if the sun were to cease shining the human creature would perish. We are, therefore, essentially dependent creatures physically. We are weak in this respect.

Then, too, consider that if God were to cease sending us His Holy Books through the intermediary of His Holy Manifestations (such as Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah), man would be spiritually weak for of and by himself man has not the power to reveal such heavenly gems as to cause his spiritual upliftment and, therefore, his spiritual progress. In relationship to the material universe man is all weakness; then how much more weak is he in relationship to God, the Creator of the material world and of the spiritual worlds! He is, indeed, the All-Powerful!

Abdu'l-Baha wrote:
This very weakness of the creature is a proof of the power of the Eternal Almighty One, because, if there were no power, weakness could not be imagined.

"If there were no "words" then weakness or power could not be imagined. Plus I can imagine weakness, and I don't believe in God."

dumaurier responds:
I believe you are taking the subject out of context, 2x2. If a child is incapable of lifting a picnic table and you, standing beside him, lifted it up for him, it would be a demonstrable and concrete example of the reality of weakness and strength. Words are not necessary to see the reality of an adult's strength verses the reality of a child's strength. Both are strengths, but one is more powerful than the other; one is weaker than the other. God has power and man has power. But when both are compared, man's power is weakness in comparison to God's power. After all, He created the universe and we are but His creation! The created cannot be more powerful than the creator otherwise it would have created itself without the need of a creator.

Abdu'l-Baha wrote:
In the contingent world there is ignorance; necessarily knowledge exists, because ignorance is found; for if there were no knowledge, neither would there be ignorance. Ignorance is the nonexistence of knowledge, and if there were no existence, nonexistence could not be realized.

Those are my italics...but see existence in the way that you are speaking of again requires words. One can't think about concepts without them. So nonexistence in the sense that you are using it depends on somebody thinking about nonexistence. Follow me? JMHO's

dumaurier responds:
I follow you. However, existence is in nowise dependent on you or i nor on words. It is wholly independent of you and i and words. If man did not exist there would still be an existence. The proof of this is in the fact that when you have finally put away your human physical body, and you lie 6-feet under, the world continues to exist despite your absence--or your words! And if there were no existence we wouldn't have to die for there would be no need for death, or no words. You yourself will testify to this truth for you see cemetaries where people are buried. For these dead souls existence is nomore, but for you existence is real for you continue benefitting of God's boutiful gifts provided for you in this life. No words are necessary for the dead. Thus we exist, and because of this actuality, reality, presence, tangibility, materiality, life, being, continuance, in brief, because of our existence we know there is an existence and words are not necessary to prove this existence. But there is an existence, therefore it is realized. And if there were no truth, truth could not be realized. Truth is not dependent on words; but words are dependent on truth.

------------------
dumaurier

17. ### BorisSenior MemberRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,052
Dumaurier:

Would you not agree, according to your thinking, that God's existence can be conceived of only because we can also conceive of God's inexistence? If so, which came first -- the chicken or the egg (sorry, the existence or nonexistence)?

You also made a rather laughable and naive claim that "no greater creation exists in the universe than the human being. In relationship to the material universe man is, indeed, complex, grande, sophisticated, and beautiful." Come on, do you really believe that a human being is grander than the entire Milky Way put together, minus the human civilization? Do you seriously believe that in all 12-15 billion years of its existence, the universe could do no better than it did in the solar system over the last mere 4.5 billion years?

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

18. ### LoriRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,065
Hi Boris,

You misunderstand the whole point, dude. I'm not BLINDLY believing in anything. EVER! That's what you don't get. It's not necessarily a lack of proof, but a lack of sharable or visible proof that I could present to you. IT'S NOT PHYSICAL, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Would you just stop it already? There IS proof, definate proof, but it is on the INSIDE, in my heart. There is nothing that I can pull out of my heart, and put under a microscope for you, OK???!!! Why don't you get that? You think that just because I can't do that, that I have no proof. I DO HAVE PROOF, I just can't SHOW it to you. If you were to take a leap of faith, then you would surely have your own proof.

------------------
God loves you and so do I!

19. ### generalhurrssRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
53
Dumaurier,
I do not wish to insult here, but I have a question for you. What religion are you or do you profess to follow?

20. ### BorisSenior MemberRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,052
Lori! Back from the dead!

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

A while back, I mentioned somewhere that had you not grown up amongst humans and learned about your God, you would have no idea of God, genesis, or commandments -- <u>none</u> whatsoever! So the 'proof' in your 'heart' is merely an internalized dogma coming from the pastors of olde. Your proof rests entirely in their trustworthiness (laughable) and in the ultimate source of their message -- which is obviously earthly (read Plato's post on the first page of Evolution vs. Creation thread).

The 'proof' you allude to, I assume, rests with the emotional comfort your religion gives you. That is no proof at all; it merely is a reflection of the fact that you found a way to induce comfort within yourself through religion (not the best, or the most reliable, of ways mind you).

As for physical nature, you cannot dispute that every single thing you know and are is physical. This includes your knowledge, your thoughts, and your emotions. There's no God behind your 'proofs' -- merely psychology.

For example, paranoid psychotics find proof everywhere of conspiracies against them. Their intuition gives them a total and irrational faith in this 'theory'. Your intuition of God is fundamentally no different (arguably healthier, but of no higher fidelity.)

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

21. ### dumaurierRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
171

"Dumaurier,
I do not wish to insult here, but I have a question for you. What religion are you or do you profess to follow?"

General, (may i take an "at ease" stand? thank you, you're a good General

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

. I don't take your question as an insult. You ask a direct question and it merits a direct answer: my religion is called "Baha'i".

------------------
dumaurier

22. ### dumaurierRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
171
Boris, please stop being a silly goose. Your first question is not logical and you know it! And you are just playing with words again (chicken/egg). But if i were to answer you--and not in the same vein as your question-- i would say that in all truth God has always existed and, thus, the chicken has always existed in the heart of God, a Creator Who willed every atom into existence from shear nothingness.

As to your statement wherein the words "laughauble and naive" are injected, my answer is that man is the greatest representative of God in this universe for nothing that we know of in this universe can reflect this love for the Creator as a human can. But such a thought, i believe, is a little too difficult for you to grasp at this point of your personal development.

The human being is indeed greater than the entire Milky Way put together, for he has awareness of his Creator, whereas all the milky ways that you can perceive have not this most wonderful of powers. I seriously believe that in all 12-15 billion years of its existence, the universe has done a marvellous job in the past 4.5 billion years in seeing the marvellous, the laudable, resplendent and magnificent appearance of a human being--a human being who, with all the purity of his heart, and with the profoundest piety, bends his knee at the recognition that God is truly the essence of Love, Compassion, and He is the All-Wise! He is the Unfathomable, the Creator, and if you were to thank Him a thousand times with every breath you take this would not be sufficient!

All praise be to God Who out of nothing created such humans as oppose His very magnificence and evident power.

May He, in His unfailing wisdom, forgive the wayward and bring sight to the blind.

Salutations

------------------
dumaurier

23. ### dumaurierRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
171
Lori, dear, you mention "faith." This is a highly meritorious achievement only for the pure of heart. That wonderful Being, the Beloved Christ, said that faith is not given unto everyone, as you well know. Recall to mind Judas Iscariot! People like Judas can only be pitied for they walk life with an unsure foot in their own trepidations. And then see the consequences of Judas' treachery! Herein lies a lesson and a great wisdom for all who walk in faith!!!

May God bring you joy and happiness.

------------------
dumaurier