Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

Jay,

Well not quite. Note that the issue in this thread is that the Christian God Cannot exist, not so much a proof that it doesn’t exist. But more importantly I do have countless thousands of years of evidence where no one has been able to show that god fantasies have any basis in reality. How much longer would you say we wait until we finally declare the idea as absurd? In contrast can you present any evidence that a god exists?

It’s largely irrelevant where the alleged god actually resides. This thread offers theists a difficulty that arises when they heap impossible super power onto their fantasies. The fun is watching them jump through hoops trying to escape very simple logic.

Ahh I am pleased – you have said “if”, which implies you have doubt. That is progress. But whatever a god might be it will still be constrained by logic.

But more importantly nothing indicates that gods are possible.

Why? What are your qualifications that might make you trustworthy?

Well I admit that trying to prove a fantasy has no reality is a challenge because those offering the idea can always change the fantasy accordingly. But I am content that you cannot offer a single shred of evidence to show that such a being might exist or could exist.

You can consider it as long as you like but unless you can show some evidence you have nothing more than an irrational fantasy.

LOL – you should read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy – that is part of their proof that he doesn’t exist – it is a comedy like your statement. So tell me why something that wants to be believed doesn’t simply introduce itself clearly and plainly so there would be no doubt?

Remember that “religious faith” has no value – it is simply belief without proof.

Yet Christians claim they do know that their god exists, why don’t they simply admit that they really don’t know? And why would looking at the big picture include believing that a fantasy is real?

 

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Well the bible for starters. You dont have to believe it, doesnt bother me at all.

Yeah, its also fun watch athiest saying there can't be something like a God, and then believing the universe just happened.

Nah, no progress at all.

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Its human nature to have doubts.

And nothing indicates that a God isnt possible. But a God could be possible, because even scientest said themselves that they think this universe is within a multiuniverse. Which in my belief would consist of heaven and God. The universe couldn't have created itself, everything in this world is made by soemthing, why would everything be made by something except the unvierse itself? Its far too finly tuned to of been created by chance.

What i mean was trust me that trying to prove me any points that you think suggest a christian God isnt possible won't mean anything to me.

Your point? Faith is something atheist dont have. Also, the Bible could be considered some proof. And if you bother to think of the possibility the universe couldnt appear from nowhere, or even do any research or see what others have to say, you might have it too.

No problem, i've asked you to do some research, or even look at the other side of the story. Doesn't brother me.

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That means nothing to me.

Exactly what the bible tells us to do, have faith. Also, you are atheist without having proof God isnt real, i mean there is a bible, but you still choose to have faith God isnt real.

Ok, i admit i dont know. I do have ideas though, like the multiuniverse that consist this world, according to scientest. But i also admit that i nearly have complete faith. Why would i look at the big picture? Because you have to look outside your beleifs, which i have done, i've considered God not being real, but yet i've chosen to believe in him. Its no fantasy, well to me anyway. It's like every other descision you make in life, you always have to consider the other outcome.

 

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Cris before you reply, ive edited my above post a bit, so you might want to edit your reply.

 

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I'm a sticler for details; You admit that you believe in that which can't be proven, god; furthermore you claim that a universe couldn't have just come to be by natural means itself, it has to have a creator. What about god?. Nothing could create itself, why is your god absolete from this logic?. Everything in existence is made of something or created by a higher being, according to your dogma, what stops your god from being created by a superior god?

Godless

 

Can i ask you to read this please: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0002.html

Its long, but it may explain it a bit better then i can.

 

Jay,

What is there in the bible that represents evidence for the existence of a god?

Which you can’t refute by showing a god actually exist.

I don’t believe any such thing. You have been reading your Christian website again. Remember that that site is all heavily biased propaganda and indoctrination. I particularly liked the analogy with a rock suddenly appearing. The simplest explanation is that the universe is infinite, since from physics we see that matter and energy is never created or destroyed. No need to create the fantasy of a god and all the resultant supernatural gibberish that goes with it.

The Christian asserts that a god exists, if you have doubts then you are an atheist.

You mean like fairies, unicorns, and flying pigs, right? Again without some evidence all these things are fantasy. Are you comfortable believing a fantasy as true?

It was a request for trust – the context didn’t require the clause.

That your belief in a god is irrational. Are you content being irrational?

This is a good thing, since faith has no value.

Why?

But as I have said I don’t believe it appeared from nowhere, it most likely has always been here. However, in quantum physics quantum events have been observed where matter does appear spontaneously, so indeed there may be some support for a universe appearing spontaneously. However, I’m not keen on that prospect just yet.

You mean like Guth, Linde, Reinhardt, etc. Bubble universes, multi-verses, cyclic universes, etc. Nothing leads me to support the idea that religious faith has any value or that gods need, might, could, or should exist.

What makes you think I haven’t?

Clearly it does otherwise you wouldn’t try to unnecessarily convince me otherwise.

You perhaps need to read more then, but you missed the question -

Tell me why something that wants to be believed doesn’t simply introduce itself clearly and plainly so there would be no doubt?

Why do what the bible says? Can you not think for yourself?

Atheists generally don’t claim that gods do not exist. The essential atheist position is a disbelief in the claims made by theists. Try following some of the links given at the start of this forum that explains what is meant by atheism.

It is usually the onus of the person making the claim to offer proof before their claims can be accepted. You are making the claim that a god exists and you do indeed have the onus to prove your claim.

Can you show the bible is anything more than mythology?

No that is not correct. Read the link on atheism first to understand your error.

Ok that is healthy, that is also the primary atheist position.

”Nearly” isn’t quite the same. It looks like you haven’t been looking very long and/or you haven’t really examined any alternatives and you certainly do not understand the atheist position yet or their arguments. The websites you quoted really are quite immature and if you are basing your beliefs on those statements then you are in real trouble.

No, I don’t believe you. I think you have listened/read what Christians say about atheism and have judged atheism in that heavily biased light. From your arguments here you clearly display an almost complete ignorance of the atheist position.

But not based on any reasoned rational arguments.

Objectively it is fantasy. Without an evidential basis it is simply fantasy.

Then please do so. Your posts so far indicate you have barely begun.

 

Jay,

Sorry - too late. I'll re-read your post.

 

instead of arguing specifics maybe someone needs to explain what is gods nature. in my opinion god would have to be unnatural. the only forces in nature are natural ones.

 

Nature to this unvierse. God isnt in this universe, and he is not human.

Btw cris, im replying to you now

 

Jay,

Latest quantum theories suggest that at least at that micro level matter can spontaneously come into existence. But I suspect the universe is infinite, and hence never needed to be created.

No it isn’t. Physics indicates that matter and energy can’t be created or destroyed. And everything made by man is always an adaptation of something else; nothing is ever created from scratch.

If you follow that line of reasoning then you must also explain what created God. And then who created the creator of the creator, ad infinitum. Inventing a god to explain the existence of the universe doesn’t offer any explanation but simply pushes the question out another stage, in an infinite series.

At some point we have to accept that something infinite must exist otherwise nothing could have ever begun. Since physics indicates nothing is created or destroyed then the simplest explanation (Occams Razor) is that the universe is infinite. In this light there is no credible justification to invent a supernatural realm with gods etc.

This is a basic logical fallacy, and classic Christian propaganda. The universe continues to function because of its basic laws, if it were otherwise it would either not exist or would be radically different. But your argument is also often applied to the existence of life and man. Here the fallacy assumes that the universe was designed to suit life and man, whereas the more rational conclusion is that man developed because of the conditions offered by the universe. Had the universe been different then either life would not have developed or life would have had very different characteristics.

The Christian argument is similar to claiming that a pie dish was designed to fit the shape of the pie when in reality the shape of the pie is because of the shape of the dish.

 

The universe cannot be infinite, even if it was, how did the gases etc get there to create the universe with the big bang? That brings me to what scientist accordingly suggest that another multiuniverse create this one, which goes along with what the Bible says itself, that God is in another universe without our physical laws and out of time. Oh and that christian site makes alot more sence then your first post of this thread.

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Not neccesarily. I believe in God, but its impossible to completly believe in something you have no proof of. We dont even have proof that we exist, we knwo we most likely do, but theres still doubt.

Thats a bit different to God.

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ill pass on this question.

No, i dont believe in God because of what i have read on these sites. I've believed long before i even got the internet, based on other things, i also went to church all the time. Its jsut been the past month which the subject has interested me about how the universe came about and how it must have been God, well to me anyway.

Nah, is does. Its actually known that christians can be a bit more generous, and mroe willing to help the poor. And if you believed in God like me, faith would have a value.

As i said before. The universe cannot be infinite, even if it was, how did the gases etc get there to create the universe with the big bang? That brings me to what scientist accordingly suggest that another multiuniverse create this one, which goes along with what the Bible says itself, that God is in another universe without our physical laws and out of time. Oh and that christian site makes alot more sence then your first post of this thread.

I base my faith more on my belief God does exist because of what the teachings in the bible are, and how it makes alot of sence along with life, than do by believing because i think there must be a God that created it because it seems impossible, but it certainly helps. A universe seems impossible to have existed forever. But with something like God outside time, it is possible to exist forever, because theres no time. It's a difficult concept but i found it more convincing then a bunch of gases causing a big bang thats infinite. And it all seems like a bit of a plot if you ask me, so it seems God is very likely to be involved in all this, i believe.

Oh never mind, jsut try view it in a different perspective. I think i may see it in a different way you do.

I like telling others what i think, thats pretty much why. Not that i care about you been an atheist.

I told you, because then it wouldnt be a test of faith.

I can actually, and everything in the bible is pretty much what you would want to do, isnt it? Like forgiving others, being nice, not killing etc.

Ok then. Do you believe in God? If not, then that doesnt really apply to you.

No, but everything seems resonable and doesnt seem fake.

Ok.

No its human, it is healthy, but still doesn't mean i dont believe in God.

As i said above, my faith isn't based on what ive read on all these sites, this is just extra information i've come accross, to understand more on how God could be all knowing and live outside of time, and answer alot of questions for me. I dont have ignorance, ive looked at it from your point of view, but that hasnt made me stop my beliefs, your saying you think im ignorant jsut because i haven't switched 'sides' yet.

No no no. I believe in God because thats what i believe, i know all the cirumstances to be athiest, but i believe in God, that doesnt make me ignorant.

Nah, ive believed for ages. And you have only read why i believe in God in a scientific way, not in my emotional way.

 

But how, if there was no sound, life, gases, or anything to cause those, it isnt possible. I reckon the Bible makes more sence on this one, a God would make alot more sence as to why something could appear from nothing or be enternal. Which is why i repeatdly keep bringing it up because God is enternal, and Cris, if not eveything was created and cannot be destroyed, hwo did it get there? Something with intellegence would have to do that.

Seems impossible, but God exist, thats how it would have occured.

As the Bible says, God has no beggining, or end, hes enternal and outside time. This is something us humans will never know until we die.

I talked a bit about this above.

How did these laws come about? Sounds God like to me.

Yeah, God created us to be put on a dish (universe), and put us here to be eatin. (tested: of faith and compassion)

 

Your very faulty reasoning assumes that God directly makes our decisions based on God's Omniscience. Think about this concept for just a moment and your who argument falls apart. God knows what you are going to do before you do it, but it is still you that made the choice. God did not influence the choice, although God certainly could if God wanted to, but even with the influence it is still you that chose to do it.

An example: Your friend knows that you will bet on hard seven, becuase you always do. He tries to convince you that perhaps hard eight would better. Now no matter what choice you make it was with free will.

 

Exactly.

 

The one with faulty argument is you. You don't get it.

If god "knows" before hand of a decision it's predetermined. Thus no free will exists, if god is to be omniscient. And by that same account god himself is stuck in the same dilema, if a being is omniscient there's nothing that it can do to change an outcome, that has already been predetermined.

have a nice read if you care to understand the paradox.

Godless

 

Look at it this way, just pretend one day we improve our weather predicting skills, such as being able to predict what will happen next by the behavior of clouds and such, and we predict tommorows weather, well just because we knew it, doesnt mean weather doesn't have free will. And we wont have it exactly predicted anyway, we arent that smart. But remember, this is God we are talking about, we dont know the concept of his universe, and what he can do. Just because God knows all, doesnt mean we have no free will. Hes universe isnt the same concept as ours, you have to remember that. And no doubt God can process alot of information and have accurate preditions. Some say if he already knows, why doesnt he keep us in heaven instead of wasting hes time and putting us here, well here it is, it would be unjust for God to do so, and just tell a soul your gonig to heaven and hell because you did this without them even getting to perform the experiment.

Basically my conclusion is he only knows all because hes able to access every bit of information in todays world, right at this present moment, and he knows how everyone thinks, acts etc, and then he processes all the information in hes brain/soul and can receive completly accurate results. Just like we can predict the weather, but hes God, so he can do it perfectly.

Anyway, the Bible says hes all knowing, but does it say he knows the future? He may be all knowing to the past and present only?

 

BeyondTimeAndSpace:

Two things:

1. Why does an eternal being have to have an existence throughout an eternity which half of it has not come into existence yet? What makes eternity and non-temporality the same?

2. What proof can you present of the non-temporality of this hypothetical deity? This presumes the capacity to truly be outside time. Tell us, how is this accomplished? Moreover, may God act? If so, he must do so in time, as all actions require an alteration from a prior existence, which in and of itself, necessitates time.

Well, actually, this is only part of some views of Christanity's God. In Calvinism - and in religious thought of other sects before Calvinism - God has precisely the sort of prescience I speak of. Calvin's theo-philosophy is centred around the notion of absolute determinism rooted from God's omniscience.

Moreover, we ought to consider the viability of libertarianism in philosophy even from a non-God perspective here. Even without omniscience, there are convincing arguments to demonstrate that free-will is quite baseless.

Well, as noted above, I do not think this is yet substantiated. Also, clearly God is capable of understanding the temporal, and has to act in a temporal manner (Genesis' creation account), thus it would seem impossible that he was non-temporal.

Again, see above.

 

Read this http://www.carm.org/questions/free_will.htm

Its not because God can see the future, he just knows each and every one of peoples hearts/souls that he created, and knows what they will choose. There is free will. Read the WHOLE page.

 

From the paradox that starts this thread, it clearly follows that BOTH free will of humans and omniscience of god can exist - but only if god has created humans that are destined for hell - in else god is evil ........
If you believe in both free will of humans and omniscience of god - then you must accept that god is evil ....

 

Perhaps we are just guineapigs or dancing puppets (robots) for god .....
worth nothing to him ........

That would mean, that for me he is not worthy paying hommage to .....

But then again, Man created god ..... god only exists inside the brains of humans as an abstract term ......