Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Cris, Jun 21, 2001.
What things would that be?
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Do you ever read what you write, because somehow you don't even seem to remember you own last post.
If there was a god; couldn't one argue that since he is "omniscient" he knows every detail of every persons peronality, making it unavoidable that he would know the decisions you make. Just because he knows what decision you are going to make, it doesn't mean you weren't the person who made the decision, nothing was forcing you into the decision. Just some powerful force unrelated to the decision knew that the decision was going to happen.
Say if it were possible for a person to predict the future, would you consider your free-will to be compromised because someone, in all other ways, unrelated to you had predicted what was going to happen to you?
Does anyone else see this argument as valid, or is it just me?
*this is completely unbiased and does not express my viewpoint on religion
Yes, by definition. If it can be predicted with 100% certainty, then there is no free will.
Yeah, I suppose you're right. It would just be an illusion of free-will. That's an interesting concept to think about..
Which makes omniscience a childish game in which God taunts humans by forming them not out of clay but out of illusion.
my erroneous comment:
this thread has been going for 12 years.
Check the star trek vs. star wars thread. Over a thousand posts.
I wonder how many are duplicates of ideas? You could spend a year just reading it...
AND its main point is fallacious..Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
i'm sure in religious forums "proof that god exists" threads would run for 12 years as well. humans are humans and societies are societies, scientific or not.
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hehe..and that thread is way worse than the theist/atheist debate..
i tried to get involved in it, and gave up..
TrevorFrench; et al,
The argument is not quite right, and thus gives the wrong outcome.
You cannot look at "Free Will" and "omniscient" (or other GOD Powers) in isolation, or in a snapshot in time. GOD Powers are a concept form of infinity (having infinite properties).
"Human Free-Will" is also a concept implying "decision and choice." Decision and Choice are temporal, moment to moment; changing in snapshots of time; as conditions change. Whether of not I will spend a dime, or save the dime can be effected by whether or not I know I've won the lottery.
Temporal is the key relative to the question of "decision & choice."
In isolation "omniscient" must also be thought of in concert with the interlocked GOD Power of "omnipotence." There is a logic that interlocks these two, in that "omniscient" (knowing how to do anything) is a prerequisite for being "omnipotent " (the ability to do anything). [This is another discussion, for another time. It is merely important to know that they are co-dependent powers.]
"Increments" in Time - versus - "Infinity" of Time (Past, Present, Future versus Infinity the Continuum). [This is one more discussion, for another time. It is merely important to know that they are co-dependent powers.]
The Flaw in the Discussion of a GOD Power:
The "Free-Will" perspective is viewed in moments of time. It suggests that the Supreme Being has a "past, present, and future" in terms of sight, that corresponds to the past, present and future of humanity. But from the GOD Power perspective, the human past, present and future, ALL is revealed at once. The GOD Power of the Supreme Being allows it to exist along the entire timeline, every human moment of time, at the same time. So all the events that set the conditions for a human decision, and the outcomes of those decisions are all seen at once by the Supreme Being. The Supreme Being cannot be evaluated in terms of the human timeline; because the Infinite Being is simultaneously viewing every point along the continuum. To the Infinity Being, there is no past, present, and future. Thus the Infinite Being does not set fit within the paradox. To the Infinite Being, their is no future, because it has already happened.
The reason that, from the human perspective, that the GOD Power knows the human future, is because it has already happened; not because the human has not yet made the choice.
I was brought up in a terrible manner that caused me to loose the ability to exercise my own will, and I often felt disturbed by the thought of predetermination, but I learned much later that I was my own worst enemy, through no fault of my own. I had to learn to think of life as a priviledge and opportunity rather than an imposition. Men are not born, they have to be made, and that is where this world has a history of irresponsibility. I can understand why someone would need to dismiss a god like that, in order to keep the right of freedom. The God I worship calls the religions of the world "a cage full of unclean birds" or vultures, and if the cost of eternal life for an atheist required a second sacrifice, He would do it again, but once is strong enough.
I dismiss God because it doesn't appear to be true. The autonomy that atheism provides is just a beneficial side effect.
You mean Revelations?
With a mighty voice he shouted: "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great! She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evil spirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
That metaphor was bought to you by a religious group. It seems that it is first mentioned by Justin Martyr
Moreover also among us a man named John, one of the apostles of Christ, prophesied in a revelation made to him that those who have believed on our Christ will spend a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that hereafter the general and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all will likewise take place.
and would not appear in your text at all if not for the work of the people who collected, copied, translated and handed down these writings to the various religious bodies who decided what to leave in and what to leave out. Those were principally Catholics. That is, most of this took place long before the Reformation.
In short, the Bible itself is the work product of the Jewish and Catholic religions. If either or both of them is "the whore of Babylon", then everything she produced would necessarily be a bastard child, including this text you say is the word of the God you worship.
Atheism takes a simpler view, in which no such paradox exists. Conversely paradoxes such as those you present form a large part of the evidence that God must not exist.
Let me be clear, I have no idea what you want. Spidergoat stated God was evil, so I told him obtain a first hand account.
What do you believe in, btw?
Why, because the fatalities he gave you never happened? What difference does it make if it's first hand? I could sit here all day and talk about the bird that unjustly crapped on my car. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to address the grave evidence that's plainly available to the whole world?
Autonomy is good
What part of a God idea would remove your freedom? Some say it is the fact that your decisions are already known. I know exactly when my cat will try and jump on the car, but it doesn't stop me parking at home. Knowing the future is just intelligence and does not prove that I will control the cat. So who are all these poor people that are controlled by God or is it other people, institutions and philosophies? obviously yes. I prefer autonomy as well, especially because it is so costly to get back once removed from society.
But if atheism is so good how come people are dying to get out of communist countries? With the spread of atheism it might explain why our free countries are fast losing their prosperity. What do you think?
aqueous id (quote) - If either or both of them is "the whore of Babylon", then everything she produced would necessarily be a bastard child, including this text you say is the word of the God you worship[/QUOTE]
Not really, Moses was preserved in Egypt, and we both know that doesn't make him pharaoh. But I get your point - there is an irony about the texts revealing the true nature of its guardian.
You complain about bird shit to God? Maybe it takes a special sense to understand why God will not intervene until time is up. He stated God was evil, if you know me I consider God a close personal friend.
An entity with "GOD Powers" can neither be "good" or "evil."
Those are man made constructs beneath that of a Supreme Being. When you are an entity that exercises "GOD Powers," you are not limited by man made constructs.
Free Will and restrictions on Free Will are outcomes of man trying to interpret the intentions of a Supreme Being exercising "GOD Powers."
It would be similar to an individual trying to determine if he/she is a slave to a master, --- but there being no identifiable master, no one claiming to be master, only others - self-proclaimed slaves - passing on the legend of a master.
Religion (a man made construct) is the factor that extends restrictions upon man; not the Supreme Being exercising "GOD Powers." "GOD Powers" are such that they do not require slaves, compliance, and obedience. Intervention by the Supreme Being that exercises "GOD Powers" need only to will it --- and it is done.
Separate names with a comma.