Proof that God does not exist.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Why haven't you made a conclusion?
    Are you optimistic that one day you will realise God.. Personally I think that is smarter than simply accepting that God doesn't exist. But it is only a mindset.

    The notion of holding out to see if suitable evidence becomes available, is like a dangling carrot constantly placed about two feetfin frontt of you. You think each steps gets you closer. But it never does. When eventually you get the carrot, it kind of seems likelit isn't worth the time and effort you put in.

    What was your relationship to GodGoG whilewyou were theist?

    How so?

    That only shows that its not significant, and certainly not a cause. Atheism can't make you do anything. You are atheist, and every thing you do, say, and think, expresses that. If you become more accepting of God, you will find that it permeates through your expression, without having to think about it. IOW, you will change.

    But neither is theism.

    Traditionally it is accepted that people who believe in God, are religious. For example, If i go into the town centre, and publicly start speaking about the benefits of accepting God, most people will voew me as religious because I would talking about God.

    If an atheist does the same, but talk obout the benefits of secularism, it would be no different, bar the subject matter.

    Religion is everywhere, we just Don don't see it in that way.

    When you join a religion, you are expected to change your lifestyle How you dress, what you eate drink. What music you listen to. Where you go, the company you keep, etc. It is exactly the same in secular land.

    If you decide to stop commitingc adultery, you will see change. It doesn't mean you have to fake any kind of belief. You may have to communcommu with your wife more. But how is that taking bad thing. IfIeveryoneIstopped committing adultery, the change in the world would be immense.

    No it's not. It relies on elements tjat are bad for living beings, for it to progress.
    For example, there is no real need for mass animal slaughter, as itidoesinot benefit mankind. But it does so. Even destroying futile land.

    In yourself.

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  3. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    You are right, he didn't. Belief in no God is no more a religion than belief in God.
    All of them?? Or perhaps only those that have actually created an organisation (religion) to do that? Would you call theism a religion, or is it merely that upon which some religions are built? If you refer to atheism, or even "belief in no God" a religion then you may as well call theism a religion. If you would do that then we can continue arguing the point, but if you concede that theism is not itself a religion then hopefully the point is made that atheism and/or "belief in God" is not a religion.
    And here we are again with you failing to comprehend what atheism is. Atheism: "lack belief in the existence of God(s)". Now, since I can not say whether God exists or not because I do not know (agnosticism), my rationality leads me to lack faith in the existence of God. Thus I am atheist.
    It really is no trickier than that. No hidden trap door. And it has been explained to you time and time again.
    And how would I know that you were telling the truth? And why would I necessarily have an answer? Is one not allowed to say "I don't know?"
    Appeal to authority. Who is to say that you would be telling the truth?
    If you don't have a billion points then yes, this would be an effect. An effect of the life-choices you have made, of apparent randomness throughout your life, of many other factors.
    Being a description does not preclude it from being a cause or an effect. My atheism is an effect of the experiences I have had, my thinking, etc. It is the cause of me initially visiting this website etc.
    Ah, yes, just assert your position with no actual argument.
    Been there and done that, Jan.
    With regard their concept of the God they believe in. One cannot believ in something without first formulating a concept of that thing, no matter how much you argue otherwise.
    Again you have it backwards. I am skeptical, by nature, and that lead me to question things, and to my current position. It is not the other way round. I am not skeptical because I am atheist. My skepticism came first, while I believed.
    Just a pity you don't have a particularly good grasp of what they are as they pertain to atheists.
    No, I would have no control over that one, or else it wouldn't be God, would it.
    I have not always been in this position, which you'd know if you ever listened to what people told you.
    You create a puzzle, Jan: you say that an atheist can not proceed any further, yet you try to explain how it is that an atheist might become a believer, a theist. Either the atheist must believe (become a theist) in order to progress to becoming a believer, or you are stating that "once an atheist, always an atheist", which rather flies in the face of your oft exampled Anthony Flew.
    We have been discussing the God you believe in for many years, Jan. Or are you finally admitting that you don't actually discuss?
    So you believe.
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  5. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    I see no convincing argument either way.
    I wouldn't say optimistic, no. Why do you think it smarter? Why is it smarter to constantly hope for things that might never come than take a pragmatic approach and be happy with what you have? I guess it might depend on how much that optimism drives, but I can only speak for myself. If I am locked in a cell and no one tells me how long it will be for, there will come a time when I will realise I should at least make the most of what is in front of me rather than be too concerned about whether or not I will be released. That will come as and when it does.
    The carrot is only as good as what people are willing or able to put in front of you. I have long ago stopped chasing them, unless I need the exercise.
    Explained above.
    It rather depends upon your understanding of atheism, Jan. Given your rather different view...
    And yet you say it isn't a cause.

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    How so?
    No, they would see him as irreligious, as unpious. Certainly not as religious.
    Let's please stick to a recognised definition of religion, shall we?
    How is it the same in secular land? Without the expectations of change that you say religion asks of you, how does secular society ask you to change? I'm confused by this notion.
    I wouldn't know.
    You seem to be confusing change being effected with the veracity of what caused that changed. How does accepting God, say, and all the changes that might lead to, lead to the veracity of God existing, other than through some form of appeal to consequence?
    Eh? Where in the 10 Commandments does it say not to slaughter animals? Where does it say "Though shalt live only on the flora and fauna of the land"?
    And you don't think atheists and theists are different in this regard???
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  7. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    I think the thread has gone off the rails.
    Jan can you offer any proof that God does not exist?
    All this chat about this and that must make you happy as it gives recognotion to yhe possibility that there is a God...but talking about God does not make it real so before we indulge other discussion what can you offer...does God exist and what can you offer to support that fantasy.
  8. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Then put it back.

    The only one I can think of, is the one every atheist uses.
    I can't see God, so God does not exist.
    But like everyone else, I'm waiting for you to offer one, as the thread is your idea.

    If you believe God Is a fantasy, then show how. This is your big chance to show the world.

    If you can show that God does not exist, other than the subjective proof I put earlier, I will be happy.
    But we all know that's never going to happen. So the thread will inevitably go off the rails.

  9. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    "The only one I can think of, is the one every atheist uses.
    I can't see God, so God does not exist."

    How about my argument, that absent a non self contradicting or coherent definition, the word is meaningless?

    It's as if you were asserting that it was silly of people to say square circles don't exist just because they can't see one.
  10. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member


    You don't have to be the creator of a religious organization, to be religious. You can be a follower.

    It depends on what you think religion is. Sure, God centered religions are the most common basis for religion, but is not the only one.

    Religion is an education process, insofar as it teaches it's adherence how to prepare them to achieve the goal. But what the goal is, depends on the leaders of the religions.

    For example, the Buddhist religions differs from the Christian ones, is different from the Muslim ones.

    They may have similar goals, but all have different methods of attainment.
    The atheists who are religious, simply have a different goal.

    I agree that belief in anything, does not make it a religion. But I doubt that is what is meant when atheists, or atheism is a religion, even though it gives that impression.

    The charge is relatively a modern one, primarily through folks like Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and Dennett.

    When atheists argue, they almost always, draw upon explanations, and ideas of these atheist evangelists.

    Of course this doesn't mean all atheists follow, or even agree with these evangelists. But the bulk of them do, and as a result, more people are becoming explicit about their atheist with specific signatures.

    There's a film where a christian goes on a university campus, asking whether or not they believe in God, or evolution. Most, if not all, which he interviewed, were atheist, and believed in science, enough to accept (neo-) dawinian evolution as fact.
    But they couldn't defend their belief with anything other than faith in the scientist who themselves believe. It is this type of faith, and devotion to the scientific explanation of some scientists, that is deemed religious.

    I am aware of what atheism is. It is like theism, but without the belief in God. The question is, why are you without belief.

    We know it's not a choice, as we cannot choose what we believe, or not. Lest we forget. If you forget, then there is nothing to remember. There is no that no thing you've forgotten until your memory is revived.

    So your rationality concludes (albeal temporarily) that there is no God, as opposed to their being a God, which is why you're atheist.

    Either you accept I'm telling the truth, or not.
    You wouldn't "necessarily" have an answer but I would assume there is a reason why you ask me. You could ring me to remind me to where one, because you think I might forget. You could easily think I'm not wearing one, as an example.

    I would be.

    That wouldn't be because I don't have a billion pounds. I have to make life-choices whether I have a billion pounds or not.

    Me not having a billion pounds effects nothing. I am the the one that causes effects.

    Show where I'm mistaken.

    What was your response to God's response?

    This is an atheist perspective. The idea of God as being wholly a separate being, operating in time and space, the way we do. This means that if God exists, there should some kind of evidence of this being. Of course we don't see sant man in the sky, or when we look into our physical hearts, we see no man type being in there. So the atheist is forced to conclude there is no God. At least currently.

    Theists hold concepts of God, but we place our belief in God. The more read about, and talktabout God, the closer we get. So we are happy to develop our concept.

    Yet you cannot explain where my grasp is lacking. You simply assert, that it is.
    Because you say it is, doesn't make it so.

    You claim to have been theist at one time. Nothing about what you say gives that impression. Just saying you are, or were a theist, doesn't, mean you were.

    What I mean is, that in a discussion, or debated about God, the atheist is extremely limited. YouYonly need to look at professional debates. They have to support it with lighthearted essential, or comedy, or mockery, once they reach their limit.

    The atheist can become theistt but it requires a surrendering process, which most atheists refuse to do.
    A theist who becomes atheist, has to forget God. A theist has to back slide, and indulge themselves into mundane activity, to achieve that. Otherwise they go through turmoil.

    We haven't been discussing the God I believe in. We've been discussing the atheist straw God, trying to bring the subject matter to the God of scripture.

    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  11. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Say what now?

    It's a contradiction spidergoat.
    The clues are in the names of the subjects.

    There is nothing contradictory about God, unless you're atheist.

    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  12. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Then tell me what it is without using impossible terms.
  13. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    What, what is?

  14. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    I knew it was a mistake to respond to you. Get thee back behind the grey wall of ignore.
  15. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Good talk.

  16. Gawdzilla Sama Valued Senior Member

    Cthulhu's Corollary to Pascal's Wager: What if you chose the wrong god?
  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    I thank you for that Jan, as you remind me it is that simple.

    With all the talk about this and that it is easy to forget that the usual onus of proof placed upon someone has been ignored by those who can only claim their fantasy of God is real.

    Their inability and indeed stubborn reluctance to offer anything in support of their baseless assertion is enough for a reasonable man to reject their claim, such rejection being in step with evidence rules relating to civil legal matters...and by offerring absolutely no evidence of their claim that there is a God the theist does not even come close to proof beyond a reasonable doubt such a standard that would be appropriate in criminal matters before a court.

    So theistis not only refuse to provide evidence but lack the ability to understand why it would be necessary to do so...their ignorance can be confused for arogance but sadly it is ignorance that is at play here.
    Now if I was as dilegent as Micheal I would present a dictionary definition setting out what "fantasy" covers.

    To do just that would certainly have any reasonable person include God fitting perfectly yhe definition of fantasy.

    Probably the best evidence of fantasy is evident by the established fact that no one has presented any clue as to why God may be anything more than fantasy.

    The problem is for the theist is that to claim that their fantasy is real they create an onus of proof that they obviously can never meet.

    It is the theist who turns their God into a fantasy and leaves him there in fantasy land refusing to meet their burden of proof.

    However they rush to move the discussion to considering the qualities of god, his plan, what he might expect of humans all in an effort to pad out their fantasy and move focus well away from the fact they have not done anything to satisfy any reasonable onus of proof to take their made up notions past mere fiction and fantacy and certainly have done nothing to have normal people think they are more than highly delusional.

  18. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    So you're going with the rather metaphoric version of being religious. Fair enough.
    So it is nothing? Like table salt without sodium chloride?
    Lack of anything convincing to suggest that there either is or is not a God.
    But we can choose to question what we believe. We can choose to think critically about what we do believe.
    No, I do not conclude, even temporarily, that there is no God. That is merely what you wish my position to be.
    Indeed. But on what on basis should one accept that you are telling the truth? Blind faith?
    Without convincing reason to accept what you are saying as truth, I would rationally conclude "I don't know" rather than believe one option or the other. Why wouldn't you do the same?
    Circular reasoning.
    Yes, but the actual life choices, randomness, innate capabilities (which inform your life choices etc) have led to the lack of a billion pounds.
    If you're going to be this inane with your arguments, Jan, we can stop now. Is that what you want?
    Your current situation informs your choices. This is inescapable. Having a billion pounds or not having a billion pounds does impact the choices we make. If I want to donate a million to a charity, not having a billion pounds rather scuppers that... it thus affects what we can do and the choices we can make. Hence it is an effect.
    I have no intention of revisiting almost every single thread and discussion on the issue, Jan.
    What response?
    Stop it, Jan. You are being dishonest. I have not stated that the concept of God need be "wholly a separate being" etc. Don't put words in my mouth. If your concept of God is one that "is" then that is still your concept, whether or not it matches reality.
    Ignored as irrelevant.
    Well, at least you admit you have a concept of God, Jan. We're making progress.
    Whenever you make shit up about atheism, Jan, your grasp is shown to be like salt, but without the sodium chloride.
    No True Scotsman.

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    I am not here to convince you, Jan. Either accept or do not. But don't assume I am lying unless you can demonstrate that I am.
    Limited? No, not really. Unless you can get part the foundations there is little point in moving further. And the foundations are well within the boundaries of any limit you perceive.
    Believe to believe, Jan. Enter the cycle to be caught by it.
    However, it is not that the atheist refuses, but rather that they simply can not do it, no more than they can simply choose to believe.
    They don't need to forget God at all. They merely need to lack conviction that God actually exists. Or are you intending to equate the two?
    Cop out, Jan. And utterly dishonest.
    You don't believe God to be the cause of all? You don't believe in a God that "is"?

    You are utterly pathetic, Jan.
    And thus endeth the discussion.
    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
  19. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

  20. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Yes. Very simple.

    You claim God is a fantasy, yet you offer no proof, in a thread created by you, entitled proof that God does not exist.
    The irony!


    Where is this proof that God does not exist?

    You only need to type in 'evidence for God', in Google to know your talking nonsense.

    Maybe your not cut out to provide proof, or even a quarter decent explanation.

    That's so cute.
    Where is the proof that God does not exist? You should really trytand come up wothwat least one, seeing as it is your thread.

    Even I came up with one (simple, but relevant from that perspective).

    I'm going to hold my breath until you present one. Please don't take too long.

    You're not being reasonable Alex.
    I suggest you try to be reasonable.

  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Well I suggest that the irony is that you, the supporter of the fantasy makes such demands whilst still not completing the first step of giving a reason why you offer more than a fantasy.
    I laid it out and you missed it. What more proof do you need.
    What proof do you refer to ..crying statues, pan cakes with a burn that folk fantasize is JC...
    All that stuff is so much like UFO accounts...
    OK given there is so much proof why is it you never offer any?
    Is it that embarrassing to be in a group who think they see God in a fried piece of bread and silly enough to grasp at such straws.

    If you have anything go ahead but I certainly wont hold my breath.
    Back at ya.
    You really did miss it didnt you...already proved.
    The onus nevertheless still remains with you to prove your made up fantasy.
    You cant do that so you sidetrack all over but I will still poont out the burden is with you.
    My proof is clear precise and acceptable in a court of law.
    That is an interesting approach to getting your own way ... change that tactic when you notice you have turned blue.
    Now I know you are joking.
    Being reasonable is but one of the noble qualities gained when one reaches enlightenment.
    You must envy such but you to could be reasonable by not expecting others to accept your delusions as fact.
    Just ask yourself it reasonable to make something up and then present it as fact as you do with a made up God...the answer is...certainly not reasonable.

    Talking about google..I searched for strange practises in the past for religious hete is some trivia for you...believers would lick the wounds and eat the scabs off sick folk in the belief they were doing a good deed...that merely indicates that belief sometimes be very wrong.
    But how about that just showd how ignorant folk can be I guess.

  22. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member


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    Thumbs up

    Any way I have decided I have found a way out of THIS stupidity and into another

    In my stupidity god does exist and here is a photo of him

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    I present to you god Starman

    He was conceived on Earth and made from the elements of Earth

    He rose into the heavens on a chariot of fire which made the ground shake from its mighty roar

    He now resides in heaven and is traveling to Mars to spread the good word

    What else could he be but a god?

    The Church of Starman will hold its first meeting on the Moon as soon as we have collected enough from the go-fund-me site

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    Any questions?
    Case closed???
  23. river

    THAT is what has been happening all along .

    Any god that will see a flood about to happen and does nothing to protect Humanity from this flood ( except of course Enki , who is the one who warns noah about this pending flood , hence the build the ship ) is the WRONG god .

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