Proof of the existence of God

Why are humans capable of beliefs, reptiles don't dream I was told this from a presence that I did not detect or isolate the source but the message was logically correct.

 

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Space time is the artist way ("God") of defining His work. And probability existing within the paremeters of spacetime to keep the integrity of the gift of free will an authentic principle of His creation.

 

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We have no free will.

 

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Reptiles have beliefs.

 

No, I can't enlighten you. But it's evident that you don't believe that I believe God is just a concept. I don't think when you are discussing God that you are discussing anything other than a concept. But isn't this all to avoid discussing your special pleading?

 

Somehow, somewhere, something has to be eternal. I say let's save a step and say the universe is eternal. It has always been (in some form or another) and always will be. What we see as the "big bang" was just another step in the cycle. Just because a sine wave crosses the X axis doesn't mean the string has stopped vibrating.

 

You have claimed God ("original cause") to be necessary, yet you can not seem to explain why something that is eternal necessarily requires an "original cause".
Please do so?
To put it another way: if something had no beginning, how can it have had an "original cause"?


I'm also waiting for you to explain how you can imagine God, please? What do you imagine when you imagine "original cause"? And no hypocrisy, please.

 

I agree, if by "arguably" you mean that the CA does not show that God caused/created the universe.
It is an argument, and thus the soundness of the conclusion relies on the soundness of its premises.
The premises can not be demonstrated nor proven (even the BGV Theorem Jan is now throwing around fails to "prove" it), and can only be assumed.
If one assumes the premises are correct then the CA perhaps shows what Jan thinks it does. But since the premises are not assumed to be correct but must be demonstrated / proven, the CA is at best a valid argument.

 

I have made no more of a claim that God is the original cause/creator, than the mind exercise made the claim that it is a FACT that God does not exist, in the so called mental exercise.

You seem to think that ''cause'' is only related to ''creation'', ex nihilo.

jan.

 

I'll allow your atheist (gmilam) chum to posit a response...

I haven't claimed that God's existence is a fact.

Sure, if you're in the business of shifting goalposts.
Read gmilam's insightful quote.

I don't understand the question, given, the definition of God.

I have made no such conclusion.

jan.

 

In our discussion, I said ''I am discussing God'' (as opposed to a god), and you replied ''I don't know that you are''. My subsequent response was based on that, as that's what was posted. It seems you added the other sentence shortly after I began my response to you.

jan.

 

Stop lying, Jan.
You have insisted upon THE definition of God as "original cause/creator".
You initially claimed that, with God as defined, nothing would exist if there was no God. Things exist and thus you argue God is as defined.
You previously failed to see the logic of how this was an implicit claim that God is the original cause/creator, and despite being shown repeatedly how it is, you continue in your ignorance.

Furthermore, more recently (post #1079) you have claimed that God (as defined) is subsequently defined as necessary (#):
"Necessity is defined through the definition.
Without the cause there can be no effect, and the definition defines God as the original cause/creator.
It is necessary by default, whether I believe it to be or not." - Jan, post #1079.

Thus you have claimed that God, as defined, exists.
QED.
(#) - I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you do understand what it means to be "necessary".

So please stop lying.

No, I don't. It makes no difference to the argument whether the creation is ex nihilo or from the arse-end of an inflatable transdimensional alien, or from God... there is still creation.
If it is ex-nihilo then great - whatever directly caused it can be called God (although ex-nihilo really does suggest it comes from nothing - and thus God, as the original cause, would be akin to nothing).
If it is via a third-party then God can still be claimed as the "original cause/creator" due to claims that God caused whatever caused the universe.
But if the universe had no creation event then there is no ex nihilo, no arse-end of an inflatable transdimensional alien, no God as our "original cause/creator"... we simply wouldn't have one: the chain of cause and effect would simply have gone on for an eternity.

 

And your god is just one concept of many.

 

That is the definition of God, regardless of my belief or lack of.

That is not claiming that God exists, that is saying that if God does not exist (by definition), then (by definition), nothing would exist. The question is, how is it that God could be imagined to factually not exist, without bypassing the definition.

It wasn't an implicit claim, it was reaction to the notion that God does not factually exist. The failure is yours.

So what?

By ''necessary'' it means that it is not contingent on anything else for it's existence. The original cause can not be dependant on anything else for it's existence, by definition. One does not have to believe in God, or claim that God exists, to come to that understanding.

Aside from the problems, and absurdity, that an eternal universe would create, it could still be the result of an original cause.

jan.

 

I don't know what you mean by ''your god''?
Maybe you can enlighten me.

jan.

 

I believe that God is eternal.

The idea of an eternal universe (as long as it's not God), has been put forward as a requirement, to counter the idea of an original cause.

jan.

 

Well it's not mine.

 

God is Evolving As Much As We are Evolving

Posted by Enoch Tan

God is Evolving As Much As We are Evolving
“I am not the God of your mythologies, nor am I the Goddess. I am The Creator— That Which Creates. Yet I choose to Know Myself in My Own Experience.
Just as I know My perfection of design through a snowflake, My awesome beauty through a rose, so, too, do I know My creative power—through you.
To you I have given the ability to consciously create your experience, which is the ability I have.
Through you, I can know every aspect of Me. The perfection of the snowflake, the awesome beauty of the rose, the courage of lions, the majesty of eagles, all resides in you. In you I have placed all of these things—and one thing more: the consciousness to be aware of it.
Thus have you become Self-conscious. And thus have you been given the greatest gift, for you have been aware of yourself being yourself—which is exactly what I Am.
I am Myself, aware of Myself being Myself. This is what is meant by the statement, I Am That I Am.
You are that Part of Me which is the awareness, experienced. And what you are experiencing (and what I am experiencing through you) is Me, creating Me.
I am in the continual act of creating Myself.”
- Conversations with God, Book 3

“You are Me choosing to be Me. You are Me, choosing to be What I Am—and choosing what I am going to be. All of you, collectively, are creating that. You are doing it on an individual basis, as each of you decides Who You Are, and experiences that, and you are doing it collectively, as the co-creative collective being that you are.
I Am the collective experience of the lot of you!”
- Conversations with God, Book 3

“All of your life you have been told that God created you. I come now to tell you this: You are creating God.
In every moment God expresses Himself in, as, and through you. You are always at choice as to how God will be created now, and She will never take that choice from you, nor will She punish you for making the “wrong” choice. Yet you are not without guidance in these matters, nor will you ever be. Built into you is an internal guidance system that shows you the way home. This is the voice that speaks to you always of your highest choice, that places before you your grandest vision. All you need do is heed that voice, and not abandon the vision.
Who you are, I am.
You are defining God.
I have sent you—a blessed part of Me—into physical form that I might know Myself experientially as all that I know Myself to be conceptually. Life exists as a tool for God to turn concept into experience. It exists for you to do the same. For you are God, doing this.
I choose to re-create Myself anew in every single moment. I choose to experience the grandest version of the greatest vision ever I had about Who I Am. I have created you, so that you might re-create Me. This is Our holy work. This is Our greatest joy. This is Our very reason for being.”
- Conversations with God, Book 3

“We want you to understand that you are Source energy also in a physical body but the Source part of you, this expanded part of you is evolving because of the physical part of you. This is the thing that many of our physical friends don’t understand. They think “Oh I might have been nonphysical and there might be some soul or Source in me, and there might be a God who is aware of me, but here I am out here on this bleeding leading edge and aren’t I here to prove some sort of worthiness?” And we say not in any way, you’re here to create, you’re here as an expander this ever expanding universe, and you can’t stop the expansion. All day every day, you’re contributing to the expansion of this universe.”
- Abraham Hicks (YouTube: Abraham Hicks – All Reality Began As Vibration)