Pacho, You are the one being dishonest. "God in concept is the creator and operator of the universe and everything with a beginning.", is not actually your conception of God. It makes no reference to God's qualities, whether he's worthy of worship, whether the Bible represents His will, what, if anything we are supposed to do with that information. Is He also the destructor for everything with an end? Why is He operating reality, and to what end? Where is the evidence of God's intervention in anything? And please don't start about objective reality. The only beginning that we know about was 14 billion years ago, and there is no evidence one way or another about why that happened. It's a classic God of the Gaps argument. (That's where we put God's role in the place we know little about, thus avoiding criticism).
Wow, so Pachomius is blaming us atheists for him not moving forward with his argument. And he has the gall to say that it is us questioning his concept that is the issue. Yet where, in the vast swathes of drivel that he has written, has he moved beyond his concept of God to the point of actually presenting an argument, despite pleas for him to do so. Pachomius, please move on with your argument: you have set up the concept (whether we agree with it or not) - and your intent here is clearly to use "facts and logic" to show that this concept actually exists... in objective reality no less... so please go ahead and do so. Do not use us as an excuse for you not presenting your case. Do not claim that we can not accept this conceptual notion of God for the purposes of following your argument: we can, and we have always been able to - we have just been pointing out issues with it that you will undoubtedly face as you go through this argument of yours. So present your case. No dawdling. No delays. No evasion, avoidance, dilly-dallying, time-wasting: put up or, for the love of your deity, STFU!
To progress a debate it helps if we answer clearly and conciselly what each of us ask. I did with your first question but you didn't with my question, again. Can you provide scripture that actually supports your concept of God? For spidergoat and Sarkus, I'm examining his claims from a theological viewpoint, I want to know more of this God that he believes in.
For example: Genesis 2:1-3 2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. If God rested on the seventh day, who took charge of the universe?
Considering you post posts like this often(which simply offends people, and is unrelated to the thread) I'm surprised you're allowed to post. Pull the plank out of my eye AGAIN.
What theology? God is the creator and operator of everything that exists (let's not get confused with the term "beginning"). Is that a theology? Where's the Bible? Where's good and evil? While it's easier to support such a simple statement, it's harder to support a comprehensive theology, which is probably why he avoids it. Here's something I always like to paraphrase, from William S. Burroughs: If God is Control, why does Control need to Control? Because if there is something to control, doesn't that imply that He's not in control?
The why I post posts like that is quite simple: while Pachomius persistently calls on "logic", "reality" and "the objective" all he does - and has EVER done - is make utterly unsupported claims while unjustly and inaccurately vilifying atheists. His "proof" isn't a proof and nor are his claims about about atheists (or their "dishonesty") founded on any rational basis. Since he has consistently shown himself to be incapable of making - or recognising - ACTUAL logic then he is, essentially, trolling. What's good for the goose ... In short, I have a very low tolerance of persistent irrational idiocy. Sue me.
Based on what we, or to be more precise, our scientists have discovered, the Universe seems to tick along on its own accord, I mean can you imagine a god on a broomstick flying around blowing up stars? Very weak argument, and it seems not much in the way of scripture either. Nothing I've got back.
I know how you feel, I just bite my lip most of the time Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Dave asks: ”Can you provide scripture that actually supports your concept of God?" I am not into revelation but purely on thinking from facts and logic to come to the certainty of the existence of God in concept the creator and operator of the universe and everything with a beginning. Here are two texts from ancient sources which I am not bringing forth as revelation but just for testimonies from ancient theists affirming their knowledge of God in concept as the creator and operator of the universe and everything with a beginning. In the beginning God made heaven and earth. -- Gen 1:1 I believe in God the Father almighty creator of heaven and hearth. -- Apostles' Creed verse 1 Okay, for folks here who are investing time and labor to learn something from this thread though I am not the author of this thread, here is a very simple and easy way for you to come to the certainty of the existence of God, but take care: I am not into making you to come to be God's believers, but just to inform you that there is the certainty of God's existence when man thinks on facts and logic. Dear readers here, that word supernatural is a concept employed by Christian philosophers to mean the realm that is above and yet encapsulating the natural realm studied by ordinary folks, and this supernatural realm is also in charge of the realm of the natural or of nature: recall that phrase in the Declaration of Independence of America, "laws of nature and nature's God."* and it saturates the natural realm or nature as like a medium, think of space and time that saturate the totality of the universe. Now, the head of the supernatural realm and also the natural realm or nature is God in concept from yours truly as also with ancient philosophers and today's theistic thinkers, the creator and operator of the universe and everything with a beginning. Dear readers here, I will introduce this very simple way and very easy for being really simple for you to come to the certainty of God's existence. This is the way to ascertain whether something exists at all outside our mind, for example, God. 1. Formulate a concept of that something or entity, in our present concern, God. 2. Here is the concept of God: Creator and operator of the universe and everything with a beginning. 3. Go forth into the totality of existence to look for the entity creator of the universe and everything with a beginning. 4. Start searching in the universe and in man; begin with the simple nose in our face: now, universe, man, and man's nose are all components of the totality of existence, but we will just concentrate on the universe and man with his nose which are components of the universe, for the present save the totality of existence for future consideration, still keep in our mind that the totality of existence is the sum of all existences whatsoever, it encapsulates even God and universe and of course man with his nose and his also [no offense] balls -- when I use the term man I mean also embracing woman i.e. including woman [hehehehehe]. 5. Are you ready to join me, or you want to continue with words and more words and more words...? If you have something you want me to explain, please just send a note in this thread. NB I am not into proselytization, but just into seeing whether the natural reason of humans can and does come to certainty of the existence of God when humans think on facts and logic. *See, Declaration of Independence.
For the record, one doesn't think "on" something. You think "about" something. You don't think "on" logic either. You use logic. It's also unnecessary to repeat your stock phases over and over within the same post,i.e. "God is the creator and operator of the universe and everything with a beginning". Lastly...are you a sane person?
Your "certainty" is far from being so. Likewise your claims of "facts" and "logic" are sadly devoid of both.
That makes no sense. If one seeks evidence of God, basically, you are saying go and look for it. Where's the logical process?
Dave writes: Pachomius said: ↑ In the beginning God made heaven and earth. -- Gen 1:1 I believe in God the Father almighty creator of heaven and hearth. -- Apostles' Creed verse 1 Where was God when He created heaven? EDIT: Just a quick question, will get back to your post. Dear Dave, that is a rhetorical question, in this present instance, a diversion; please just keep in mind that God in concept as the creator and operator of the universe and everything with a beginning, God in His essence and nature and substance is all existence -- so your question is irrelevant: but you can start a thread on your question and I will be a poster there also. Now, dear readers here, for the exercise of your brain muscle, the number muscle of our body, for today, while we are waiting for Dave to resume his self-interrupted post, think about this request from me to atheists: Disclaimer: I am not into trying to get you guys to become God lovers, if you feel that you are getting to be affected by my posting in this in a way for myself a sort of brain-muscle-building thread, that is your call to no longer read my posts, or just quit this thread: so that you will not be like getting to breathe in an environment where someone is smoking and you are getting to become willy-nilly an indirect smoker. Thanks for your replies, fellow posters here; and dear readers here, for still lending your presence to this thread: that is your testimony that you take it most seriously to exercise your brain the number 1 muscle of our body, by reading and thinking over this thread. Now, I will just ask atheists and everyone else, but in particular atheists: first, it is time you atheists exercise your brain the number 1 muscle of your body, by thinking on facts and logic in the matter of God exists or not. Okay, for everyone who is keen to exercise in this – think about it, a sort of thread for the health and fitness brain exercise for myself, here is my proposal for your today's drill to exercise your brain the number 1 muscle of our body. It is a question addressed to atheists but we all everyone else keen to exercise our brain the number 1 muscle of our body, must think about it on facts and reason i.e. logic. Always employ your brain with facts and logic, if in any issue you neglect to think i.e. exercise your brain which is the instrumentality of our mind, then you are at risk of going into irrationality even intellectual insanity -- though you are not physically violent, but in your brain muscle you are stymieing it instead of developing it with the constructive exercise of thinking on facts and logic. Here is the text for us all to exercise today as a work-out for the further increase of our brain matter and its enhancement: Okay atheists here, please give your explanation for the existence of the universe and of man. But first tell mankind what is your concept of explanation. See all you guys again tomorrow.
This post is not addressed to Pachomius especially. The "evidence" against God would seem to be the universe as we see it. A universe that is largely hostile to life and an Earth that existed billions of years before man appeared and with all the inherent "injustice" doesn't appear to be a place where there is a God. There doesn't appear to be evidence for only one God either as many religions believe to be the case. If there was only one God that God would appear about 40,000 years ago and all of his communication with man would be consistent. Instead each group that believes in God hears from a different God, one surprisingly similar to that group. A world without a God looks like our actual world. A world with a God would look nothing like our actual world.
Um, no. I'm not a dictionary. Mankind is an easy one, we evolved from apes, mammals, fish, vertebrates, and all the way back, single cells, which came from the complex chemistry of the early oceans or possibly underground. The universe, whoa, that's a good question. The Big Bang, of course, but why that happened I don't know. Do you think that lack of an alternative explanation supports yours?
You referred to brain as a muscle numerous times, so just to be clear - the brain is not a muscle and contains no muscles. Best to choose a different analogy for exercising the brain. The best answer to your question is that we do not know. We are still searching for answers as science improves. What can be said for certain is that the creation of religious fantasies to answer the question does not move the search forward. They have no precedent in fact and offer no identifiable evidence. Also, the absence of a scientific explanation does not give any credibility to a religious fantasy. We can be certain that something of an infinite nature must exist, whether that is the universe/universes or something else currently unknown. This must be true since if there was a time when nothing existed then there would be nothing to start a beginning. From this we can conclude that a beginning is impossible. This assumes that every event has a cause. The hypothesis of virtual particles - i.e. something from nothing, still lacks credible support. Even if such particles could be shown to spontaneously appear it would not help us since they would be appearing in an already existing space and it is unclear if they are in fact dependent on that. If there was truly ever a time when nothing existed then there would be nowhere for virtual particles to appear. The current universe appears to have begun from a much smaller but denser state and has expanded to its current size with the current projection that it will continue to expand until it is a uniform absolute zero temperature and dead. What is unknown is what triggered the expansion and whether this is the only universe. Bubble universe or multiverse propositions do not yet offer testable hypothesis but work is being pursued in that arena. Our universe may simply be one bubble among an infinite number of bubbles. Humans are a part of a rich biosphere that has been morphing over some 3.5 billion years with recognizable ancestors to man (Hominidae) from around 15 million years ago. The 3.5 number is still debated but that is likely the earliest. These are facts already established by science. The beginning of the simplest form of life is still in a stage of hypothesis so it is not reasonable to claim we have a reliable answer to that yet.
Scientists do not have it all figured out as yet. We are rather confident from evidence that the Universe/spacetime evolved from a hot dense state we call the BB...the why's and how's as yet escape us. We are also confident that life arose in the Universe via Abiogenesis and then evolution. We have good evidence for evolution, and Abiogenesis is really the only course open for life in the first place. The stuff of life is everywhere we look, and given the right temperatures and other conditions, chemistry takes over. As far as the BB goes and Evolution, the evidence for both is so strong that even the Catholic church to maintain any air of respectibility, have had to agree to both theories. From there though they depart from science and invoke a non scientific explanation they call God. Science continues to observe search, research, and observe some more to find out the why's and how's I spoke of. In essence, according to the evidence, we are just star stuff....born in the belly of these giant nuclear fusion furnaces.
