Proof: Moon Landing Fake

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by URI, Nov 11, 2005.

  1. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    17,455
    we are both in the same boat.
    i also have never given the landings much thought nor have i really doubted we went but i do remember an interveiw answer given by one of the astronauts.
    the question was "did you go to the moon"
    astronauts answer "i don't know what these other guys said but i know i went"
     
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  3. CANGAS Registered Senior Member

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    1,612
    WOW. That's provocative.

    And that reminds me of an interview in which astronaut A clearly spoke of astronaut B having walked on the moon. The records showed that B had NOT walked on the moon. There were not that many atronauts in the moon landing program. I think it would be hard for one of them to make a mistake about something like that.

    I'm too lazy to get started doing calculations, but I keep thinking that the landers didn't have big enough fuel tanks. I can't remember at this moment ever even noticeing where they were.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2006
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  5. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Flexibility (or more accurately lack of) in the suits would account for that. NASA went for hard suits (compared to some of the proposals/ options, very hard) that have limited movement at the joints.
     
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  7. CANGAS Registered Senior Member

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    1,612
    The flexibility issue sounded good for a minute. But, would the astronauts have agreed to use a suit that be a death trap if they fell down? All that had to happen to kill the landing team is for both to fall at the same time. NASA surely would not have neglected such a possibility. Can you imagine the worldwide publicity of losing two men on the moon because they fell and couldn't get up? The astronauts surely would not have agreed to such avoidable danger.

    Besides, I made up the moon suit weight to present a worst case scenario. I vaguely remember that they were possibly 400 pounds or so, which would mean a moon weight of maybe 100 pounds total. So we have a man in peak physical condition weighing half of his Earth weight total. I personally seriously doubt that even very limited flexibility would have forced him to get help.

    In my opinion something is just not adding up about the episode.
     
  8. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    IIRC the astronauts were over-ridden on several issues by the "suits" in charge - not least being "spam in a can" as opposed to pilots...
    If you can't bend your knees far enough to get your feet under you then how are you going to get up? A push up hard enough to get yourself vertical may be a proposition on the moon without a suit, but if you're without a suit then getting upright is going to be low on your list of priorities

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    As for "would the astronauts have agreed to use a suit that be a death trap if they fell down", bwahaha.
    Try "hey guys, how would you like to sit on top of 4.5 million pounds of liquid oxygen and kerosene, and we'll set light to it, throw you out of the atmosphere, you go to the moon, land and then come back in a ball of plasma"
    The whole mission was a risk full of potential death traps, and there were more volunteers than places.
     
  9. Pete It's not rocket surgery Moderator

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    10,166
    Have you tried?
    This is the nearest I can find on a hoax site Conspiracies and Underdogs:
    The astronauts fell down several times while on the moon, but they showed no regard to whether the broken rocks on the ground were capable of tearing a hole in a pressurized space suit. They never bothered to look at themselves to see if there were any tears, and the other astronauts did not bother to check one another to see how their suits were holding up.

    I also found some specific stories elsewhere.
    Apollo 11:
    The EVA videos show the astronauts falling and landing on their knees. Wouldn't this risk puncturing the space suit?
    There's always a risk, of course. The Apollo 11 astronauts were not allowed to kneel down except in an emergency because of this [Reports11b, 79]. Armstrong and Aldrin reported that they had difficulty reaching items they had dropped without the ability to kneel. It was also not known if an astronaut wearing a lunar space suit (EMU) would be able to get back up again if he knelt or fell down. Apollo 11 astronauts helped verify that this was possible.

    When the space suits were brought back and examined, it was decided that they were durable enough to allow the astronauts to casually kneel. Apollo 11 was really the final experiment and so they had to act conservatively. As the equipment was examined and modified, more roughness became allowable [Ibid., 79].
    Apollo 12
    What would happen to an astronaut if he fell down on the moon? This was one of the worries of the mission planners. Conrad was the first astronaut to be able to answer that question in the first astronaut news conference from space: "I was trying to pick up something and I was just standing there next to Al. It was a rock that was just too big to go into the tongs. We had a sort of game we played there of leaning on tongs and sort of doing a one arm jabber-doo (a Conrad one-arm push up) all stretched out...... I just sort of rolled over on my side down there on the ground and Al, before I got all the way down, just gave me a shove back up again. I don't think it will be any problem, the business of falling against a rock and cutting your space suit. You don't fall that fast. You wouldn't hit a rock hard enough."

    Bean backed him up: "When you start, you fall so slowly that it gives you plenty of time almost to turn around or catch your footing before you get low enough down before it's too late. I can recall a number of times when I lost my balance. If I had lost my balance that much on Earth, I would probably have fallen down. Now on the moon, since you start moving so slowly, you're usually able to spin around, bend your knees and recover."

    Here's the most like suspect, in a NASA journal of Apollo 12, and mentioning an incident on Apollo 17:
    Apollo 12 Lunar Surface Journal
    [Bean - (Returning to the subject of going into steep-sided craters like Bench) "First of all, you could easily slip and fall. And if you did and ever got in funny positions in that spacesuit, you couldn't get up. Let's say you fell and you got on your back with your head downslope. You're not going to get up. I mean, you can't get up from that position, in my opinion. You barely can get up from on your back on a level surface. So here's the guy up at the top looking down at you and you're laying down upside down, kind of, with your head down and maybe pushed against a rock. You're laying there. You're conscious but how the hell are you going to get your act together to get the guy back up? So I think it would be tremendously dangerous. Even if you could walk down and stand up and then couldn't get up the side. The problem with going in craters is you don't have any way to know that it's too steep until you're down in it and it's too steep and then you can't - like you can on Earth - say 'Well, I'll take off my coat or we'll call a crane or get the rescue guys to get us.' You're stuck. So it would be crazy to go in those craters."]

    [On Apollo 17, Gene Cernan got himself into a position very much like the one Al describes. He and Jack Schmitt had been working at Station 8 on a hillside, with the Rover parked angled into the hill with Gene's side slightly uphill. Gene jumped up to get into his seat, fell short, and landed on his back, with his head downslope and - to make matters worse - lying next to the Rover so that, without Jack Schmitt's help, it would have been all but impossible for him to turn around and get his feet downslope. However, rather than being a crisis, it was a problem to solve and, although Cernan, Schmitt and I were unable to reconstruct the details of how he got up, in essence, Jack literally lent a hand so that Gene could get into a face-down position so that, with a little help from Jack pushing backwards on Gene's helmet, he was able to rotate back over his knees and onto his feet. What is most telling about the incident is that, nineteen years after the fact, neither of them remembered it. When we came upon it in our review (done a few weeks after my meeting with Pete and Al) and finally realized that Gene had fallen, it came as a complete surprise to all of us. Of course, there is an important psychological difference between working on a hillside and walking into a steep crater. In the hillside cases, the LM was always at the bottom.]
     
  10. Pete It's not rocket surgery Moderator

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    10,166
    Right, here's the transcript and commentary of what I think is the incident in question, from the Apollo 17 Lunar Surface Journal:

    167:33:28 Schmitt: Yep. (Pause) (To Gene, who has fallen) Hang on. Need some help?

    167:33:39 Cernan: (Nonchalant) Nope.

    167:33:41 Schmitt: Go downhill. Get your feet downhill.

    167:33:43 Cernan: Yep. (Pause) Okay.

    167:33:50 Schmitt: Let me help you.

    167:33:51 Cernan: (Laughs)

    167:33:56 Schmitt: Watch it, there's a crater right behind you.

    167:33:58 Cernan: I got it. I got it. (Pause)

    167:34:03 Schmitt: Here. Here. Grab my hand.

    167:34:07 Cernan: Okay, now, just push up on my head.

    [By pushing back on the front of Gene's helmet, Jack can get
    him rotating back over his knees.]

    167:34:10 Schmitt: Okay. I'm not going to do it too hard. Going
    backwards.

    167:34:14 Cernan: It's all right; just push up. Okay. Okay.

    167:34:19 Schmitt: (Chuckling) Boy, are you...(Chuckling) You('ve)
    got your pockets completely filled with dirt.

    167:34:23 Cernan: Well, extra sample.

    167:34:25 Schmitt: Do we throw those pockets away this time around?

    167:34:28 Cernan: (Laughing) Extra sample. (Pause)

    167:34:30 Schmitt: Are you a mess!

    167:34:31 Cernan: (Laughs) Well, that one was coming for a long time!

    167:34:33 Schmitt: My hands are already tired from dusting you.

    167:34:37 Cernan: That one was coming. I keep trying to blow the
    dust off my camera, which is very frustrating.

    167:34:42 Schmitt: Very ineffective, too. (Pause)

    [Cernan - "At least I fell
    off-camera."]

    167:34:50 Cernan: (Preparing to mount the Rover again) Okay. Do we try that trick again? (Long Pause) You know that happened on an upslope getting on the Rover. Okay. I'm all locked in. Let me know when you are. How come we haven't deployed any charges? I guess the last one...I remember when that one is. Okay.

    167:35:20 Parker: We'll deploy one at Station 10.

    167:35:23 Schmitt: Okay. I'm in. (Pause)

    [Cernan - "I don't remember this particular event but..."]

    [Schmitt - "I can't believe I don't remember it."]

    [Cernan - "It may be that I just fell on my ass trying to get on the Rover. But I never had problems getting up, and that's why I'm confused as to what this is."]

    [Gene takes a moment to re-read the dialog starting at 167:33:28.]

    [Schmitt - "The thing I don't understand is why you couldn't do a
    push-up."]

    [Cernan - "I don't understand either. I just don't recall that at
    all."]

    [Schmitt - "You know what it may have been? You may have started to
    kick to get on the Rover, then fell, and you were lying next to the
    Rover..."]

    [Cernan - "Caught by the slope against the Rover."]

    [Schmitt - "Yes. Which meant you couldn't rotate backwards. And my gratuitous advice was to get your feet downhill! (General laughter) And you must have had a feeling at some other time - probably Station 6 or 7 - that you were coming close to missing (the seat)."]

    [The dialog at 166:48:26 and following indicates that Gene parked the Rover pointed into the hill and without much of a sideslope. This suggests that Gene fell with his feet uphill. To get up by himself, he had to get his feet pointed downhill - as Jack suggested - and, because he had the Rover next to him, getting turned around would have been difficult.]
     
  11. Sci-Phenomena Reality is in the Minds Eye Registered Senior Member

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    869
    CANGAS:
    You've convinced me... what a scam that one, was it 4 billion dollars or 7? (back then the inflation was not nearly as insane, so they raped the American people pretty hard with that Moon Landing Hoax)(anyone here know anything about the Roswell Alien Crash Hoax? (which was used to coverup Secret Government technology))
     
  12. CANGAS Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,612
    If that was the particular event, it sounds like some disorientation and some unseen obstacle(s) were the important factors, not any problem of weight or strength.

    My memory is even worse than I remembered it being. NASA information is that the complete moon suits weighed just under 200 pounds Earth weight. On the moon a 200 pound astronaut would have weighed in at 400/6 pounds, not quite 70 pounds, and should have been able to easily handle any situation that he could understand.

    The moon suits were indeed hard, however with attention having been given to design in ample flexibility, as is obvious in the photos.

    The lander is said to have weighed 17 tons, Earth weight, unstated if that included fuel. Without yet having done any numbers, it just really looks like that little thing didn't have enough of a gas tank. The landing was not nearly as fuel efficient as the launch, so getting down from orbit and then back up was more than equal to two launches. And I have looked at dozens of photos and still can't even figure out where the gas tank was. It sure had a little one.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2006
  13. Pete It's not rocket surgery Moderator

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    10,166
    Wikipedia says:

    The landers were in two stages, the ascent stage separated for the return journey to the orbiter. Only a third of the mass that descended lifted off again. Over half the mass of the lander was fuel and oxidiser.

    The landing mass was 14,696kg plus crew and cargo, including 8,165kg of propellant (Aerozine 50 + oxidizer).
    The ascending mass was 4,547kg plus crew and cargo, including 2,353kg of propellant.

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    Last edited: May 31, 2006
  14. CANGAS Registered Senior Member

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    1,612
    I used to say that the F4 Phantom was the ugliest thing that has ever flown (I mean that as a compliment. The Phantom is perhaps my favorite airplane.).

    This afternoon, sipping tea in my garden (with only lemon juice), I stared off into space and did some virtual back-of-the-envelope calculations. They looked about right to give the alledged landing and relaunch a certificate as having been maybe possible. The reminder, and new information about the weights, makes it even more certain that it might have happened.

    However. One more of the hoax accusations has concerned the claim that moon gravity is actually much stronger than the standard disinformation. The claim is that moon gravity is at least .5gee up to 1gee, surface gravity. This thought was in my mind when remembering the fallen astronaut incident. (Incidently, it vaguely seems, to my decrepit old man memory, that the one I remember(?) was when a moon walker had only stumbled to his knees, not gone flat down.) Such higher gravity would make it impossible to get off the moon into orbit (or down in the first place, safely) in such a tiny little hot rod.

    When I saw the helium tanks in the picture, I knew what had been done! FLY ME AWAY, IN YOUR BEAUTIFUL BALOON!
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2006
  15. Pete It's not rocket surgery Moderator

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    10,166
    Wow, your bullshit filter is badly misaligned if you take that one seriously!

    Ha! Very funny

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  16. baumgarten fuck the man Registered Senior Member

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    1,611
    If only you weren't blinded by your beloved Law of Gravitation, you could see through the lie that is reality!

    (Note: I was originally going to cite the theory of relativity here, but it just didn't feel right. And besides, I have nothing against Tor that I would libel her like that.)
     
  17. Sci-Phenomena Reality is in the Minds Eye Registered Senior Member

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    869
    Relativity!?!?!? Don't give me that bullshit.

    "The universe is winding down, winding down, winding down, the universe is winding down, my fair lady." (The highly innacurate song of the relativists, energy is neither created nor destroyed, thus the universe could not possibly "run out of energy," and thus it couldn't have "blown up" from one point in space to have "beginning")
     
  18. baumgarten fuck the man Registered Senior Member

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    1,611
    You bore me with your simple-minded notions and lack of understanding of the term "energy density." Good day!
     
  19. Sci-Phenomena Reality is in the Minds Eye Registered Senior Member

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  20. Facial Valued Senior Member

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    2,217
    baumgarten, do you believe the Moon landing was real?

    I can't believe this thread is still running.
     
  21. Sci-Phenomena Reality is in the Minds Eye Registered Senior Member

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    869
    Well put Facial, well put.
     
  22. baumgarten fuck the man Registered Senior Member

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    1,611
    No, it was an obvious conspiracy to justify the introduction of secret alien technology such as velcro and pressurized pens.
     
  23. Jaster Mereel Hostis Humani Generis Registered Senior Member

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    649
    Conspiracy theory threads should be in Pseudoscience. If any moderators come across this, can you please move it?
     

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