I fail to see what that has to do with what I said. Of course, I also fail to see why I'm bothering trying to do this. I've never ever seen you post a response to me that actually was related to what I said. Jan, can you define the word 'know' Jan, can you define the word 'all' Jan, can you define the world 'things' "know; To perceive directly" "all; being the entire" "thing; An entity" So, the defintion 'to know all things' means 'to perceive the entirety of everything'. I hope to god I don't have to quote the defintion of 'everything' and you can figure out that 'everyhting' is not another word for the answers of final or nature or whatever else you like to change it to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cris wrote: Depends which god you mean. But the Christian god cannot exist because the claims made for it are paradoxical, i.e. they form an impossible combination. If he can’t exist then clearly he doesn’t exist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What? So if I believed that you don't exist, you cease to be? You say "the claims made for it are paradoxical". And you call me vague. What exact "claims" do you mean? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cris wrote: Christianity claims their god is omniscient and that man has free will. This is an impossible combination. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Says who? You? You are now God? It is up to you to decide that free will and omnisience is impossible? God knows what we will or will not choose, but he does not force us to make decisions. Look Cris, just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it is impossible. How do you expect to fully understand an infinite God with a finite mind? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Cris wrote: Omniscience means perfect knowledge of everything that is going to happen. Note that this isn’t clairvoyance but certain and perfect knowledge. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cris wrote: This means that from the moment of creation this god would have perfect knowledge of every event that is ever going to happen right until the end of the universe. This also means that every human event and decision will be perfectly pre-determined from the beginning of time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are talking about predestination versus freewill. This is a great theological debate in protestantism. John Calvin believed in predestination. He said God chose who was to be saved. Others have disagreed. This webpage explains it very clearly: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/5742/FREEWILL.HTML ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cris wrote: If every such event is pre-determined than man cannot have free-will to make any other choices other than that that has already been pre-determined. If man could make a decision that had not been pre-determined then that implies that this god would not know about it in advance in which case he could not be omniscient. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are mistaking pre-knowledge with pre-determined. If I KNEW you were going to do a cannonball into the pool, then later you actually did a cannonball into the pool, you wouldn't say I MADE you do it. I simply knew ahead of time that you would do it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cris wrote: If this god is not omniscient then he cannot be omnipotent since if he is unaware of future events then he is clearly not all-powerful. So if he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent then clearly he isn’t a god as defined by Christianity. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Omnipotent means all powerful. God CAN do all things. That doesn't mean he DOES all things. There are many things God refuses to do. Tolerate sin for instance. Punish us without reason, punish us without the opportunity to be redeemed, etc. Besides you have contradicted yourself. You said earlier that if God knows the future then he pre-determines things, but then you say he seems to be unaware of future things and is therefore NOT God. So in your mind GOD can't win. If he knows the future he is bad. If he doesn't he is bad. You are very mixed up on this issue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cris wrote: However, if he is omnipotent and omniscient then man cannot have free-will. If man has no free–will then the claim that man can make a free choice to accept the Christian savior or not is a mockery since those that do choose and those that don’t’ would have been predetermined by this god from the moment of creation. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The very fact you reject God is proof of man's free will, or are you saying God is making you reject him? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cris wrote: Or in other words he would have seemingly arbitrarily chosen some to go to hell and others to go to heaven. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arbitrarily? You accept Jesus or you do not. This is not arbitrary. This is a clear choice. Any who accept, will be saved. ANY! Here is a possible solution. Why don't you just accept Jesus, then you will instantly become one of those people "pre-determined" by God from time immemorial to be a Christian? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cris wrote: Man would have had no choice in the matter since these choices would have been made at the moment of creation before any man had ever made any choices. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Again just because God may know what your choices will be, does not mean he makes those choices for you. You tell us... did God make you choose to reject him? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Cris wrote: If the Christian god is omnipotent and omniscient then man cannot have free-will since all events will have been perfectly pre-determined. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wrong. This has been dealt with above. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cris wrote: If man has true free-will then the Christian god cannot be omniscient and therefore cannot be omnipotent and hence cannot be a god. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are saying that since God did not know that you (Cris) were going to grow up and reject him (who says he didn't know?), he can't exist because then he would not be all powerful? Here is what you are saying in syllogistic form: The limited God argument 1. God supposedly knows everything (past, present, future). 2. God supposedly is all powerful. 2. I reject him. 3. Had he known I would choose to reject him, he would have made me believe. Ergo, he is neither omnicient nor omnipotent. 4. Therefore God doesn't exist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- cris wrote: If man has free-will then the Christian god does not exist. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Says who? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cris wrote: If the Christian god exists then man cannot have free will --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This statement begs the question = says who? You? Since this statement is false, your follow up paragraph is based on a false premise and is therefore also false. Here is your follow up paragraph based on a false premise YOU made as fact... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...in which case man is merely a puppet at the hands of a monster who takes pleasure in arbitrarily inflicting eternal torture on one group of humans while arbitrarily selecting another group for eternal pleasure. However, if such a god is such a monster then he clearly cannot be a god of love and hence since that also conflicts with the Christian definition of god then clearly the Christian god cannot exist. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your final argument then against the existence of God here boils down to: 1. God is purported to be "loving". 2. Eternal damnation is not "loving". 3. Therefore God doesn't exist. Correction. God is loving to those who love him back, and accept him. As long as we are alive, it is not too late to accept his free offer of salvation. -Mike
"Correction. God is loving to those who love him back, and accept him. As long as we are alive, it is not too late to accept his free offer of salvation. " Actually, I think Cris has commited the only unforgivable sin Cris is gonna buuuurn, Cris is gonna buuuuuurrn, nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah! (Good thing I'm an athiest, ja? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!)
i think this thread should be deleted and replaced with the a google search on the 'problem of evil' plaigerism anyone? aw just being a little harsh, although all these ideas have been stated a million times before in books. If you really believe in this constructed theodicy (as most christians do w/o realizing it), then you'll have to rule out logic or give up your faith. I think most people choose to rule out logic.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! unless of course you buy that free will argument
Xev, Ahh the fear factor spread by Christian propaganda. Fortunately xtianity is absurd so there isn't a problem. I think xtianity also spread the idea to those discovering themselves that if you masturbate you will go blind. Ignorance and fear - the primary tools of religion. Cris
Ekim, The conflict between omniscience and human free will is an old argument. The logic is quite clear and from your response you appear not to have quite understood the implications yet. If you claimed you could walk south and claimed you could walk north at the same instant then I would say that those claims form a paradox. Conflicting claims create an impossible condition. If conflicting claims can be shown then the claimed event cannot take place. It has nothing to do with beliefs, yours or mine. If you make claims for a god that has conflicting abilities then that god cannot exist and therefore does not exist as defined. To make the god possible you must adjust your claims to allow for something that is possible. I am not saying that the Christian god does not exist only that as defined it cannot exist. You needed to read the whole post before you respond since the claims are described. Even a god must conform to logic. This is not anything to do with my choice. If he knows what we are going to choose before we do it then what ability do we have to choose anything other than what he already knows we will do? If he also created all the conditions that led to our decisions then not only does he know what we are going to do but he also engineered the situation that caused our decisions effectively forcing us to do only one thing, i.e. that which he has predetermined for us. If the event is known before it happens then there is no ability by humans to change that event. This is effective pre-determination. Then explain how pre-knowledge by the creator is different from pre-determination? I understand the argument quite well. But the article makes several major mistakes and then dissolves into unhelpful assertions. It states: Knowing what will happen does NOT exclude free-will.. This is not true. If God knows what is going to happen in advance then it must happen otherwise he is not omniscient. This must be true since man will not have made the decision before God knows what it will be. When the time comes to make the decision the decision will have already been made by God and man simply reacts as a mindless robot. Man cannot change what God already knows will happen; man cannot have any choice in the matter, i.e. no freewill. The example in the article argues from the perspective of a human believing what someone might do, this is not omniscient knowledge so the example is invalid. You might argue that God has not made the decision, but if he hasn’t then how does he know in advance what the decision is if man has not made the decision at that time. Remember that man is constrained by a timeline. If you say that God has looked ahead in time to see what happens then that is simply clairvoyance and not omniscient knowledge which claims a perfect knowledge of the future which is different from watching the future. The multi-dimension argument also fails: This assumes that all possibilities could occur. All this does is multiply the problem. If humans can make any decision and God does not know which one in advance then again he is not omniscient. If one argues that every possibility does occur say in some form of multi-universe then again in each thread the human choice is still known in advance and hence we are back to multiple copies of the single universe problem where all decisions are pre-determined. The article also talks about infinity being limitless. But I need to point out that the universe is meant to be finite since it is claimed it had a creator. Infinity means no boundaries, i.e. no beginning and no end. If the universe is finite then any combination of events, even though seemingly relatively large will be finite. Xtianity tends to talk in superlatives without paying to attention of practicality. This is a minor point. I notice the article does not mention the out-of-time theory of God, which is commonly offered as an argument against pre-destination. But that has it’s own unique failings. The article also does not mention the argument of cause and effect. A psychiatrist will have little problem predicting the probable actions of a patient based on their genetic and hereditary characteristics. Chaos theory also shows that a small incident in one place in the world can have a dramatic effect elsewhere. Essentially a choice is made based on all the events that have led that person to be who they are. The point here is that not all potential possibilities are reasonable leading to the more credible suggestion that there is only one universe. If you do not include the cause and effect argument then that contradicts with the Christian argument of cause and effect as a proof that God exists, i.e. the universe exists, everything has a cause, hence the universe must have been created, and therefore God exists. If you want to argue the multi-dimension solution then you must argue against cause and effect in which case the universe did not have a creator and hence we are back to the issue that God does not exist. But I know you cannot see into the future so how could you know? Again how does God know what will happen ahead of time if he hasn’t already made the decision? And again if God has to wait for the event to occur, or has to look ahead then he is not omniscient. If he has pre-knowledge then it follows that events must be pre-determined. I didn’t see any point in you mentioning this. You need to re-read my post. If he is unaware of the future then he cannot be omniscient. The Christian god is allegedly omniscient so in this case the Christian god as defined cannot exist. If he is omniscient and everything is pre-determined then yes he must be bad and Christianity is a mockery, or he doesn’t exist. Yes that is the evil aspect of such a god that has predetermined that some will go to hell and others won’t. In this scenario what we perceive as freewill will be just an illusion. No, you miss the point. If my actions are predetermined then why am I being chosen for hell rather than heaven? The perceived choice as I have said will be just an illusion. But it seems this evil god has determined that I must burn, there doesn’t seem to be anything I do about it. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Yes it does otherwise how does he know in advance before I even exist? I’ll do it properly for you – 1. When a choice is known in advance then it has been pre-determined. 2. The choices of man are not known until they are made, i.e. are not pre-determined. 3. Omnipotence requires knowledge of the future. 4. God cannot know the decisions of man in advance (1,2) then God cannot be omniscient (3). 5. Omnipotence requires a knowledge of the future. 6. God cannot be omnipotent (3,4). 7. Christianity claims its god is both omniscient and omnipotent. 8. The Christian god cannot exist (4,6,7) since 4 and 6 conflict with 7. No, just follow the logic more closely. Read what you have said more carefully. Do you have children or other family members who you love? I do have such people and I will love them even if they hate me. I know that may not understand me or have all the information about me that they might need. I love them unconditionally, that is true love. Your god says Love me or I will torture you for eternity. That is not love but sheer evil. Your god simply cannot exist. The claims for him are paradoxical and completely absurd. Cris
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ekimklaw wrote: God is loving to those who love him back, and accept him. As long as we are alive, it is not too late to accept his free offer of salvation. Cris wrote: Do you have children or other family members who you love? I do have such people and I will love them even if they hate me. I know that may not understand me or have all the information about me that they might need. I love them unconditionally, that is true love. Your god says Love me or I will torture you for eternity. That is not love but sheer evil. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think you would be the first to admit the following fact: Cris, you are not part of God's family (yet). Because a person is not a child of God until they accept his son into their heart. Why would you think you are entitled to the reward for those who are members of the family of God (Heaven) without actually being part of the family of God? For instance, are you entitled to an inheritance from Bill Gates? Unless you are his heir, you are not. Same with God. Only God leaves the door open to ALL who would accept. And God is much wealthier than Gates. God offers us everlasting life in paradise. You say you love YOUR children unconditionally, but tell me, do you love everyone else's children (the kids down the street)unconditionally? I would submit you don't (they probably think you don't exist). Sure you love your own kids unconditionally, and, once we are children of God, he loves us unconditionally as well. Because then we are covered by the shed blood of Jesus. But yet, He sent his son to die on the cross so that even those who aren't his children (unsaved, unregenerate, unrepentent people), would have the opportunity to be saved. You seem to claim that God has forced you to reject him. This is simply NOT true. You reject him of your own free will. Here is an analogy: Let's say you see two doors. It is clear that you must choose one of the two doors. One says "God's Way", above it, the other says "The World's Way" above it. You think and think... "Which one do I choose?" You ponder and ponder and research and study, until finally you decide. "I have made my choice. I choose 'The World's Way'." so you open the door and stride through. On the other side you are met by a man who says in a somber voice, "Hello Cris. I knew you would ultimately choose this door." Question: How did the man beyond the door influence your decision? This is how it is. God knows, but it is up to us. To recieve the rewards of God we must become joint-heirs with him. You must become adopted by him. How? Simply accept him. It is not too late until we breathe our final breath and die. Then, it is too late. Cris, please understand, I want only the best for you. My words are not intended to offend. But should you die without adding yourself to God's family (by YOUR choice), you will not be able to say you did not know what was required. Please contact me privately if you (or anyone else) might wish to speak more in depth about this. I really do not want to prosyletize here. However, I would be a lousy person to not make the offer. Hope you understand... Take care, -Mike
Nice strong title. Frankly, I do not think that attempts to prove or disprove the existence of a god has a point at all. Just my humble opinion.
Ekim, It is more than that. No one has been able to show that such a family exists. From my perspective there is no choice since there is nothing to join. Here the term ‘family’ is not being clearly defined. My children had no choice about being part of my family, in a real sense I caused their creation. Since I made that conscious choice then I have ultimate responsibility for their development and future. If the Christian idea is correct about God being the creator of everything then God also caused my creation. If the analogy to a family is to be maintained then God has the ultimate responsibility for my future and education, in this sense I must be a part of his family. If he caused my creation then clearly I had no choice in that matter so he is responsible for me. As a good father I will never abandon my children so why would an alleged perfect God abandon his children and worse threaten them with eternal pain if they do not obey him? If my children do not understand me it is because of a lack of education, and therefore my responsibility to educate them and not to torture them. Why cannot the Christian god provide far better education so that no one would ever have to suffer? Again if he is perfect then this cannot be a problem for him. No because they aren’t my children, I have no direct responsibility for them. Your analogy will only make sense if you are comparing your god with say another god who has created another world of sentient beings. But his son didn’t die, he is meant to be eternal and is meant to be still alive. Nothing was sacrificed, there was no loss, and hence the alleged crucifixion is a meaningless concept. But that is my point; there can be no freewill if your god is omniscient. If he knows a billion years before I exist exactly what I am going to do then clearly I have had no say in any of those events or choices. I will be powerless to do anything other than that predetermined knowledge. You are demonstrating my point perfectly. He didn’t influence me. If he knew before I had allegedly made my decision then clearly someone else had already made the decision. What appeared to me to be my choice (freewill) was an illusion. I would have just been going through some pre-programmed actions that had been pre-determined. I cannot have made the decision if the decision was already known before I made it. This is why if something is omniscient then human freewill cannot exist. And human freewill and an omniscient god are essential to Christianity. Since human freewill and omniscience cannot coexist then the Christian claims are impossible. The Christian god simply cannot exist under those claims. If God knows then we cannot choose other than what he already knows. There cannot be a free choice if he already knows the outcome before we choose. That is proselytizing. Please don’t. Mike, a response in the same style. The concept of a god is no more than a human imaginative fantasy. There is no evidence that suggests otherwise. All evidence indicates that when we die we simply cease to exist. If we are to attain immortality that Christians so firmly desire then we will only achieve this through science and technology, the forefront and driving force of our increasing knowledge. Believing in unproductive fantasies and encouraging others to do the same will divert attention away from finding real solutions; in this sense the actions of Christianity are a direct danger to my long-term personal existence and that of every human on the planet. Give up your dreams, it is not too late, and focus your attention on finding real solutions to real problems. You cannot say you have not been told and you are most likely aware of the colossal amount of scientific knowledge that is currently available and that needs to be urgently extended. Please take part in the human race and help us to survive. I hope you understand. Best regards Cris
Zero, Fair enough. Do you believe that the Sun is a god? Many people used to think so. I suspect with the wealth of scientific knowledge now available concering our sun you could probably construct a reasonable proof that the sun is not a god. The essence to proving that a god does not exist lies in the claimed definition of a particular god. I agree that trying to prove that no gods of any type do not exist is effectively impossible for us right now. But if you can show that components of a god definiton are contardictory then clearly such a god cannot exist and therefore doesn't exist. The definitions for the Christian god provide such paradoxical claims. Cris
Cris Give up your (Christianity) dreams, it is not too late, and focus your attention on finding real solutions to real problems. Please take part in the human race and help us to survive. Great words. I humbly request you write a book. You've almost enough material in this forum alone to do so by simply copy/paste. I think it would be a cinch at best seller. Of course, prepare for the worst from the Xtians. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Look, all you guys who don't get the joke, loosen up. Tyler, your being too serious. Take a break and get some sleep for once. I agree with what someone said though about Christian propaganda. Its everywhere. You can't die and get away from it. Everyone wants to have a holy burial. I don't believe in god because there is little or no evidence to indicate that such a being exsists. All you have is what you've been told. Its like what I read in the 'Would you switch on a global cooling machine' with believing what people tell you but on a much grander scale. What if someone wrote the bible as a storybook and Christian blew it all out f proportion or something. What I don't get is that most religious people try to convert people to their faith. I don't see people going around door-to-door while I'm eating my dinner to say 'Hey, there ain't no god'. Another thing, why do those witness guys even bother anymore. I think they're at their peak. I think people are religious because they don't know any better and that society today is bulit around religion. Hve you seen society today, it sucks. There is no safe place.
Very true and sad, Thor. Even on-net , I'm not safe from religious preaching. but-> I have yet not begun the fightPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
The christian religion is in fact a paradox, the bible is "perfect" and having contradictions is not a perfection... therefore God is not perfect. Biblical Contradictions: Jesus' last words "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost." (Matt. 27: 46,50 ) "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Luke 23: 46 ) "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (John 19: 30) [Matthew and Luke (the first two quotes) can be reconciled because it says in Matthew that Jesus cried again after asking that question of God; what he says in Luke can be what he cried again in Matthew. However these last words in Luke contradict his last words in John. Judas died how? "And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5) "And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18) Matthew says Judas died because he hanged himself while Acts says he died when he fell and his guts spilled out. How are we saved “For it is by God’s grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts.” (Ephesians 2: 8,9) “You see it is by our actions that we are put right with God and not by faith alone” (James 2: 24) James’ line can either be interpreted as saying that we need only do good works or that both are necessary. Either of these interpretations however contradicts Ephesians which states that faith is what saves us. Are we punished for our parents sins “I bring punishment on those who hate me and on their descendants down to the third and fourth generations.” (Exodus 20: 5) “A son is not to suffer because of his father’s sins, nor a father because of the sins of his son.” (Ezekiel 18: 20) This is clearly a contradiction. Exodus says future generations will suffer while Ezekiel explicitly says future generations will NOT. God has given two contradictory statements since the bible is his inspired word. Is God Omnipotent “For God everything is possible.” (Matthew 19: 26) “And the Lord was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." (Judges 1: 19) At first glance this could be reconciled with the explanation that it wasn’t God that failed. It was Judah. It merely says that the Lord was with him. But if God is with him and God is all powerful, then there is no way that Judah could lose against the inhabitants of the valley. Who was Joseph’s father “Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph, the son of Heli.” (Luke 3: 23) “...and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.” (Matthew 1: 16) This is another blatant contradiction in God‘s alleged inspired word. Luke says that Joseph’s father is Heli while Matthew says Joseph’s father is Jacob. When did Adam really die “except the tree of knowledge of what is good and bad. You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day.” (Genesis 2: 17) “After that, Adam lived another 800 years. He had other children and died at the age of 930.” (Genesis 5: 4,5) An obvious contradiction. God said that Adam would die the day he ate the fruit. He however lived to be 930 years old. That is a total of 339450 days after eating the fruit. Clearly not the same day. Does God change “I am the Lord your God. I do not change.” (Malachi 3: 6) “God does not change his mind. He is not a human. He speaks and it is done” (Num 23: 19) God: “I am angry with them. I will destroy them” (Exodus 32: 10) Moses: Stop being angry. Do not bring this to your people.” (Exodus 32: 12) “So the Lord changed his mind and did not bring on his people the disaster he threatened.” (Exodus 32: 15) An obvious contradiction. Malachi and Numbers say God is not like a human in that he does not change his mind. But in Exodus Moses got God to do just that; God changed his mind. Has anyone seen the Lord God “No one has ever seen God; only the son who is in the bosom of the father.” (John 1: 10) “Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.” (Exodus 33: 11) “In the year that King Uzz’iah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up and his train filled the temple.” (Isaiah 6: 1) John says that only Jesus has seen God yet Moses spoke to his face like two male friends. The prophet Isaiah even saw God. Who causes people to be dumb? “As the men were leaving, some people brought to Jesus a man who could not talk because he had a demon.” (Matthew 9: 32) “Who gives man his mouth? Who makes him deaf and dumb? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? It is I the Lord.” (Exodus 4: 10-12) In Matthew a man is dumb because he has a demon in him. In Exodus God says that he makes man dumb. An attempted reconciliation I've heard has been that it could be that both do them. But that does nothing because THAT IS NOT WHAT IT SAYS. Let the bible speak. Anyway, if that silly logic is followed, one could just as easily claim that there was a massive orgy going on at the bottom of Jesus cross while he was dying.. But Christians don’t believe that. Why? because THAT‘S NOT WHAT IT SAYS. They let the bible speak. THE BIBLICAL UNIVERSE: “The earth is set firmly in place and cannot be moved.” (1 Chronicles 16: 30) “The Lord is king. He is clothed with his majesty and strength. The earth is set firmly in place and cannot be moved” (Psalms 93: 1) The earth rotates on its axis every twenty four hours AND it also orbits the sun once every year. Hardly the behaviour of a fixed, non-moving planet. “While I was asleep I had a vision of a huge tree in the middle of the earth. It grew bigger and bigger until it reached the sky and could be seen by everyone in the world.” (Daniel 4: 10-11) A Christian could respond “hey this is just a dream.” But that does not solve anything because dreams in the bible are reliable. Angels came to Joseph in his dreams in Matthew and told him about the upcoming birth of Jesus-and it happened. “After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth holding back the four winds so that no wind could blow on the earth or the sea or against any tree.” (Revelations 7: 1) impossible... the earth is a sphere, i know that you could take this quote as metaphoric, but this proves that the people that made the bible were middle eastern folk that still back then believed that the earth was flat, making it a square... with corners
All gods are imaginary, mythological-beings which "believers" alone misdetect through a process of confabulation and self deceit, indoctrination and social reinforcement. The various Gods of the world's monotheisms have been utterly decimated in every way; the ontological, the teleological, the cosmic- all positive claims have failed, badly. Even my 8 year old son recognizes that either God/Yaweh/Allah is/are spatio-temporal and "evil" (or at least simultaneously natural *and* supernatural (impossible) and *allows* Evil to exist), or simply doesn't exist. Duh'r. It was the Greeks who first reasoned that *if* there were a god over all other gods (and goddesses) it had to be "perfect" (complete). It was from them that the monotheists of the first millenium C.E. derived the fantastic claims of an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God. God(s) ain't. Get used to that fact.
Ephesians 1: 9-11 – “And he (God) made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment – to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will…” This verse sums up the ability for you to not understand Gods mindset. It is impossible for you to undertake his knowledge thus the reason you cannot for take the inexplicable capability of God. If you were able to comprehend how God can be omniscient, that everything is “predetermined”, and that the people have “freewill” would not you be God? If this frame of mind were capable there would be no need for a God, everyone a ruler between himself and herself. Which leads me to my conclusion God sent you upon the earth for this very reason. It may seem crazy but that’s his predestination at hand. He wants you to ponder upon this question and only he knows whether or not you change your mindset… But enough upon that… You have greater faith than myself. You can live throughout each day with the mindset of there is no God. So ponder upon this… Lets say there is no god and what you say is true. To your beliefs I’ve lived a great life; I’ve followed the teachings of the bible and have prospered accordingly. I have no regrets. On the other hand lets say I’m right, and that there is a God and you never sought him. You lived your life according to your beliefs and you will pay for that with a damnation of an everlasting life in the flames of hell in the afterlife, unless you acknowledge there is a God, and go through the sinner’s prayer and whatnot. Hey, for me it’s a win – win situation. For you, doesn’t look to good… So your faith is greater because you can live not worrying if your belief may be wrong. Psalm 14:1 – “The fool says in his heart, “There is no God”.” Here are some biblical proofs there is a God: Romans 1:18-20 – “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness, since what may be known about God is evident to them, because God has made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” ---- Natures proof Psalm 139: 13-16 – “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of the came to be.” ---- Proof he made you Psalm 33:11 – “But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.” ---- God’s Plan Isaiah 14:27 – “For the Lord Almighty has purposed and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?” ---- More plans Isaiah 46:9-11 – “Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the eats I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.” ---- God’s purpose for you Jeremiah 29:11 – “For I know the plans I have for you,” ”plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.” ---- Plans for you Acts 2: 21-24 – “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the dead, freeing him form the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.” ---- Predetermined Plan There are many more I’m not at the time aware of; these are just minute proof of his existence…
Cris, seems you're one of the few on the board with true logic. Ashame you concluded Nosty's predictions were not valid I guess you could say, in the manner by which you did. Nosty-Subject to interpretation and the like, vague in many instances, agreed. But by your own admission you stopped studying cause you realized your french is poor--yet you expect to be able to make a true claim of whether he is a real seer or not? By good logic, that seems quite ignorant. Seems you stopped studying too early to arrive at a fair conclusion. Anyways. This whole thread keeps spinning OVER and OVER Guys, Cris' stuff makes sense. The rest of ya, especially the poor xtians who will do anything to attempt to defy logic so Jesus can exist within their argument, seem to keep missing his points and others points as well. First of all, we have if free will exists, God is not omniscient. Agreed Secondly, we have if free will doesn't exist, everything is pre-determined and therefore the CHRISTIAN GOD cannot exist by DEFINED terms of such a diety. Agreed (Cris forget the people who can't see the obvious logic, it's quite clear) So that leaves us with: 1) Free will doesn't exist 2) The XTIAN god surely doesn't exist as defined However, this doesn't prove if GOD does or does not exist, outside of xtianity Cris, i'm curious. Do you believe in 1) Free will 2) God, of any sort (define your concept) 3) Ability to predict the future, ie. prophecy "The concept of a god is no more than a human imaginative fantasy. " That's right, because CONCEPTS do not exist. So all in all, what do we learn from all this? Xtianity sucks, religion sucks, religion controls/enslaves I think you (Cris) would agree with me on that statement -Jahiro
I posted this somewhere else, but I'll paste it here for convenience. I think Cris et al make too much of the apparent sanctity of "free will", as if we can experience all of it in practice what it seems to mean in theory. What if God was creating a random variable within a limited time frame? Our very concept of free will is limited. In theory you can do whatever you want, but in practice, you can only do what you are able to do. God created us with free will, but this does not mean we are eternally free. We are surrounded by a few things which form the boundaries of our "freedom": birth and death, on the one hand, and physical and mental boundaries on the other. Those are our X and Y axis. We are two dimensional creations within a three dimensional world (to simplify it). We can be completely free within our own world, yet completely dependent on God's world at the same time. The whole of God's creation is self-contained, a closed system, but it might be part of a greater creation - on a Z axis, going somewhere in either direction. Free will contained within God's will. There is no way we can have ultimate freedom without God making it possible. As it is, our freedom - our very reality - is limited to what we can imagine (for some, it is even limited only to what scientists can verify). The freedom with which God has created us, is becoming less and less. That is not to say that God did not know what He was doing - it just means that He did it anyway. Free will doesn't mean God can't or doesn't interfere. It means that the nature of His interference points what we call "natural" into a certain direction. Our world - God's creation - turns on God's moral axis, and our seasons change accordingly. The framework within which we are free is created by God, maintained by God, and belongs to God. Cris, You said "I cannot have made the decision if the decision was already known before I made it." Why not? Because the two ideas can't exist simultaneously in your mind? The difference between our thinking and God's, is that we are limited by cause-effect within a timeframe. There is another option: that God doesn't know something until you have already done it (even a decision is not an action) - while you have to wait for the effects of that action to reach your brain, the path along which your action runs is already known by God. The actual instant a man decides to fall makes no difference whether it he going to fall or not - the laws God created predicts his fall. It can be put on paper. It can be "known" before it happens, but it has not happened, "been decided" until the man decides to let go or to hold on. This is the idea you get when you read Jeremiah. God decides a certain outcome, but it is up to you whether you "take part" in that outcome or not. Our decisions are contained within God's decisions. On the family of God: 3:26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 4:6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba,[ 4:6 Aramaic for Father] Father." Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?
