Process, Ethics, and Justice: An Inauspicious Note Regarding the Politics of Rape Culture

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Tiassa, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    And I was never talking of the Trump voting core republican electorate.

    Which is why we should not run a corporatist, moderate, baggage laden, unelectable candidate for president next time, but still having the liberals all over social media and left wing new sources declaring that anyone that disagrees with them is evil does not help the cause, it harms it.
     
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, you were.
    There is no way to prevent the Republican media wing from claiming that liberals and lefties are saying whatever. It's a waste of time to try.
     
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  5. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    No I was not... I'm pretty sure we cannot argue further if you can't even agree what I'm arguing, but that seems to be a common problem here.

    This is not a matter of right wing media claiming anything, anyone can see this is coming out of left wing media and social media. You lack the ability to understand gradients, all the lies the right made could not stop obama from being elected, because his "hope and change" campaign unified people, Clintons "I'm with her" backed by Bells's ilk divided people, all the lies, half truths and even truths pumped out by right wing media got traction on that divide, and then she lost to a fucking pig boar. So leaving a door open for right wing media to come through is worse then leaving them to lie outside.

    Well we can put a guess what Bells's ilk believe:

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    Unfortunately despite what ever non-people creature men are, they vote, and the women that see them as people also vote.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
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  7. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, there is no reaching the die-hard Trumper fanatics... but the ones that simply voted Trump for the sake of "Voting Red"... there is a chance. The more moderate ones are, often, reasonable enough if they were simply engaged as just another intelligent person, rather than being belittled and demonized.

    Same goes for Republicans talking to Democrats - virtually ever Democrat I associate with is willing to listen to and discuss ideas from across party lines, and even agree on ideas that have merit - the source isn't important, it is the message and intent... problem is, if that message comes across as "You're a giant doo-doo head for voting like that", well, you aren't going to convert many people to your cause that way.
     
  8. Bells Staff Member

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    While ignoring the adoption of traditional gender roles..?

    Or their hatred of women they deem to be "feminists" or women who work outside of what they deem to be the norm? There is a reason why the 'gamergate' fiasco was so well supported by the far right in targeting female gamers.
    You won't "pull" them, because they literally voted against their own interests, EF. Your views that you can sell them a better economy, healthcare, education.. These are people who actively voted against all of that and have done repeatedly. Unless you wish the Democratic platform would embrace a pro-life stance, for example, you won't "pull" those voters. These are 'values' voters, who view guns, god and pro-life over healthcare, education and the economy.

    The guy who espouses your ideology.
    His right wing beliefs demands a protection for white males and he is against any policy that would encourage women and minorities from studying and gaining employment in these fields because he views that as sexist and racist against white males.

    He also cited his friends who are considering removing all women as their employees and basically not hiring women in the future and he fully agrees with their practices.. After citing why women are bad for employers.

    It is astonishing that this is the response to women daring to speak out against sexual harassment and sexual assault and shows just how entrenched rape culture is. To wit, he is throwing down for hiring less qualified people, based solely on their sex, because women may prove to be too costly to hire.
    I have linked you what my suggestion to fix the problem how many times now? The demand that I keep reposting the same thing while ignoring what has been posted already is literally trolling. Please stop doing that.
    You keep whining about it. Practice what you preach. If women posting about men in regards to sexual harassment and sexual assault offends you, stop reading it. If you present it like a threat, then go to the police. Isn't that what you keep demanding women do when they feel threatened or harassed?
    I have explained why. Misogynists like you, who directly demand that women harm themselves to fit your ideals of how women should behave, are a threat to women. Put simply, you have so little disregard for the safety and wellbeing of women that as far as I am concerned, you would be deemed a threat to my safety and wellbeing. You would be the guy I'd be warning other women about and advising to avoid you like the plague because of your deeply held misogynistic ideology. And I have fought off men like you when they believed their rights trumped my rights over my own body with my keys. You would hardly be any different. You see, men like you, with the beliefs that you have, are a threat to women and victims of sexual violence. You're like a walking advertisement for rape culture. How can any woman or sexual violence victim not see you as a threat or someone to avoid after what you have said about women and sexual violence on this site? You come across like a misogynistic creep.

    Because he was spouting rubbish. He fails to factor in actual science and is instead adopting a stance of traditional gender roles while failing to factor in that women have traditionally not applied for these positions or even studied it, because up until not that long ago, women were basically blacklisted from applying. The bias against girls starts in 'elementary' school, when it comes to subjects like maths. It has nothing to do with biology, but how girls are treated from a young age, particularly by their teachers who have pushed 'maths and science' is for boys and marking tests and papers accordingly, girls unfortunately believe they are worse and are pushed into more social courses, while boys are pushed towards STEM subjects. It's not because of biology, but because of bias that rates the abilities of girls much lower.

    Damore objects to removing the bias that exists, that would result in encouraging women to enter the STEM field (as well as minorities, whom he tried to argue the biological IQ crap for in his memo as well). That is the gist of his memo.

    He is claiming it is biology. Science, actual science, shows that it is culture. Put simply, his memo was an unscientific load of crap.

    Because you are posting like a right wing misogynist.
    I have already answered this question.

    The answer is 'neither'.

    The reason should be fairly obvious.
    Oh? So why do you demand that women and sexual assault victims subject themselves to 'second rape' that literally seeks to protect the accused?
     
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    misdirection | machismo

    We should note that his response↑—("See that your problem, you believe they are all the same and all irremediable, that attitude will assure a second term for trump. we NEED to pull of just a small percentage of them, and we can't do that with you and your ilk dividing and ostracizing even more people")—is just the latest in an exchange now occupying nine back and forth with you, plus five posts around with Iceaura and Kittamaru, and all in order to dodge out↑ because he's not capable of any deeper analysis than the tropes themselves.

    And if raising you as sosobra isn't going to get a satisfactory response from anyone, he intends to escalate↑.

    Because of course he does.

    (Goddess grant, I am skipping this line.)​

    We might take the inauspicious note: If nothing else, we are back to the priorities of politics.

    Because of course we are.

    That is to say, at least he's failing to comprehend something other than due process↑, which actually might be the point, except what the hell was he skipping out on before that, and so on, and so on.
     
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    You don't seem to be aware of what you are arguing.
    No, it isn't.
    It's primarily coming out of the rightwing media, exaggerating and falsifying and spreading agitprop via their dominant influence on the media in general. That's where you've been getting your examples, for example - you seem to have no familiarity with leftwing media at all.
    The rightwing media dominate US political discourse, since the mid '90s and currently - corporate and social, radio and TV and print of all kinds. There is no "door" to close or open.
     
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    I think you'd be wasting your time. There are no such "moderates", essentially, and no way to "engage" these people you presume exist if they did.
    They never were belittled and demonized. They were treated with kid gloves, granted wholly unearned respect and consideration, listened to and focused on and interviewed and praised and complimented and honored and polled and pandered to up the wazoo, just as they have been for your entire adult life.

    You can't prevent them from feeling belittled and demonized, you can't avoid giving them that impression by modifying your own rhetoric or behavior somehow. Your behavior is irrelevant. It's an identity they have adopted ( been sold on, more accurately) that has nothing to do with how anyone is actually treating them.

    There is no way to engage any significant proportion of Trump voters as intelligent people - there's no communication channel available. "Engaging" is not something they do.

    Meanwhile, there is a much larger and far more engaging group of potential voters just sitting there for the taking - the suppressed, the defrauded, the discouraged and non-voting faction. They are more liberal than the average voter, they are more reasonable than any Republican, they are available via legal resistance to voter suppression and voter registration drives and other means that do not require major media cooperation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  12. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    It's posturing driven from fear.

    The general response to women speaking out by certain individuals, like EF and Kitta, is out of fear. The women are speaking and they are afraid of what that means for them. The whole obsession with "due process" without understanding what it all actually means, is driven by absolute fear that their place, their inherent position could now be in jeopardy. So they go on and on about due process, about how these men are somehow being "punished" because of what they perceive to be the lack of due process (when it does not even apply in these cases).. And why? Because women are finding their voices and outing these men. The conversation and push from the EF's and Kitta's of this world is to cast doubt on it, to question their motives, to question whether they are telling the truth or whether these are vengeful women, using "social media" to bring down these men (they have not, the women who outed Weinstein spoke directly to the media via interviews or letters written and not tweeted 125 characters to do so) and so on and so forth. It sets the tone that these women, the words they are using to out these men, cannot and should not be trusted..

    Female voice has long been seen as dangerous, deviant, and untrustworthy.

    Women are starting to find their voices. Men like EF and Kitta are doing their damnedest to shut them back up again, because you know, "due process", false accusations, 'women lie', politics..

    Leah Fessler notes on the way in which men responded to her facebook post, calling on men to stand up against sexism:

    Like many women, I’ve been disturbed and enragedby the allegations that Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein has been sexually harassing and assaulting women for decades—and by how closely the story resonates with my own experiences, and those of every woman I know. The harsh reality is that no industry or community is safe from these behaviors. If we want real change, everyone needs to speak up.

    And so I’ve been struck by the silence of many men on the subject. Shortly after the news on Weinstein broke, I wrote a long Facebook postcalling on men to speak out against the sexism dominating our cultural consciousness. “Your silence is deafening,” I wrote. “If you are an ally, now is the time to sit down, educate yourself, and speak up. Not sure what to say? Worried you’ll say the wrong thing? Too bad. That’s the risk women take every damn day.” Roughly 90% of the people who offered supportive comments or “liked” the piece were women. Others deemed my reflections “aggressive” and “accusatory”; all of these people were men
    .​

    We don't need to imagine which camp the EF's and Kitta's of this world fall in.

    People often say that politics brings out the worst in people. I have always wondered if we just never saw it because of politics. Women have broken their silence and these men are freaking out. If it wasn't for politics (as it is in this case), their excuses would have been about something else. But we should note, if this is the response to women speaking out, we should brace ourselves for what should come next.
     
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    Kirsten Gillebrand's character was visible long before she led the campaign to force Franken's premature resignation http://www.newser.com/story/252623/dems-kirsten-gillibrand-hero-for-women-or-hypocrite.html . (So was Mike Cernovic's, David Brock's, etc, before they hopped on this ride.)

    Why is it invisible now?
     
  14. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    I don't see anything wrong with her call for him to resign.. And what character does she have that was visible before she said that Franken should resign?

    Are you talking about her crusade against sexual violence, particularly in the military?

    Or the fact that she accepted the Clinton's endorsement before she said that his actions and behaviour were bad?

    You'll have to excuse me, but I am somewhat confused by your comment and statement. What, exactly, are you trying to say?
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    An authoritarian and Blue Dog, whose record of opportunistic flexibility shows little in the way of moral or ethical values, setting herself up for a Presidential bid.
     
  16. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Wouldn't know.

    All I have read about her has been her stance on sexual violence and I agree with her no tolerance outlook on it and of course Trump's horrendous tweet about her.
     
  17. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    I would disagree - I've had conversations with a few who tick that (R) beside their name who have agreed with what I've had to say and admitted that voting Republican this last election was a mistake - including at least two I know of who have switched political affiliation entirely as a result of Trump. So, not all of them are completely brainwashed.

    Sadly, this does seem to be the case for a large number of them. I am still baffled at the response I get from some when asking what legislature Trump has passed yet - the most common one so far has been "Utopia, he's passed Utopia". Seriously, WTF does that even mean...

    And this I would agree with entirely. The problem is, as the minority party, what is the most effective way to overcome these suppression efforts. There is a large push in Pennsylvania right now for an end to gerrymandering that, if I am following correctly, has attention in several cases around the country. If we could start cutting the head off the beast, in that respect, I think we could start making significant headway. Then again, I'd like to see our political system overhauled to do away with this steaming pile that is the two-party system.
     
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    Of course. She makes the right mouth noises about sexual violence, and that sends the right messages in your bubble world.

    My own touchstone trivia item about Gillebrand was her justification for taking an effective lead role (with big paycheck) in defending Philip Morris - the tobacco company - against various accusations including target marketing to teenage girls. She said she took the tobacco money to finance her pro bono work representing female sexual assault victims in the military. Afaik that was her first use of abused women to cover destructive behavior, amoral and irresponsible personal advancement. It was also her first time ignorantly damaging Minnesota politics, btw - that fraud and perjury case was fought partly in Minnesota, and was a political issue in the State.
    (nobody I know of has run the numbers on the damage to women from tobacco addiction vs sexual assault in the US military, supposing in the first place that was the only well-paid job she could get, but if one adds in Gillebrand's immigration and gun control and surveillance and crime votes that disproportionately harmed non-white women it's pretty clear she's currently running a karmic deficit - whether dumping Franken goes sideways on women or not).
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    That happened with W as well, after Katrina - it didn't last. Suddenly we had this "Tea Party" thing - then they all voted Republican again anyway.
     
  20. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    ... fuck, yeah, sadly you are probably right about that...

    Why is our countries memory so terrible...
     
  21. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    What bubble world would that be?

    The survivor of a violent rape bubble world?

    You know iceaura, perhaps before you type something so inherently stupid, you should pause and actually think about what it is you are conveying.

    What's that? Sorry! I can't hear you. The rape bubble world I live in isn't allowing your stupid message to get through....

    I haven't seen any evidence of what you are saying. I saw evidence of her work for survivors of sexual assault. And I saw her suggest that a powerful senator and a man who sexually harassed and assaulted women should resign. I get why that rankles for you.

    Guess your "depends on the politics" bubble is hard at work...
     
  22. birch Valued Senior Member

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    i wanted to say but i forgot to comment before that when you shared your story that i not only think that it's brave but also very humble of you to reveal your experience. many people would not do that because they don't want the public to know they had any experience where they were dis-empowered or taken advantage of/victimized. your sharing indicates just how humane and real you are, which helps others feel less shame for their experiences.

    thank you.
     
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  23. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Thank you birch. I really appreciate that.

    And I would say the same for you and pjdude as well. Speaking out about it is the best way to help others, so that we know we aren't alone. And if it helps just one person to know that they aren't on their own in this horror journey, then we did good.

    We have nothing to feel ashamed about because we have not done anything wrong. It's those who did this to us and those who tried to white wash it or blame us or not believe us or try to excuse it for whatever reason who did something wrong and continue to do so.
     

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