Process, Ethics, and Justice: An Inauspicious Note Regarding the Politics of Rape Culture

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Tiassa, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    #rapeculture | #imaginethat

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    This is a complete mess.

    The staff director and chief counsel for the Office of Congressional Ethics is being sued for verbally abusing and physically assaulting women.

    Omar Ashmawy’s case goes back to his involvement in a late-night brawl in 2015 in Milford, Pennsylvania, according to Foreign Policy.

    The suit includes a range of allegations related to his behavior that night and in subsequent years.

    If the report from Roll Call seems confusing, it is because the whole situation becomes a complete mess. At some point, Mr. Ashmawy ended up in some manner of at a Milford pub "that left him bloodied in the back of a police car". Three people were arrested in the aftermath; "Court documents ... show that three women, including the bartender, accused him of harassing and physically assaulting them."

    The staff director of the Office of Congressional Ethics is accused of "threatening to use his position ... to induce a criminal proceeding".

    One of the men who was arrested, Greg Martucci, said he witnessed Ashmawy act in “an extremely violent and belligerent” manner and was verbally abusive toward two women at Milford’s Dominick Inn, according to court documents reviewed by Foreign Policy.

    Martucci is now suing Ashmawy in a Pennsylvania federal court related to the bar fight. Martucci eventually had the charges dropped against him and had his record expunged.

    Dawn Jorgensen, one of the women Ashmawy is accused of harassing, said she saw Ashmawy sexually harass the bartender. This led to Jorgensen’s husband, John, taking him outside.

    It would seem the accusation is that in the aftermath, Ashmawy used his government office as leverage to compel the arrest of intervenors who, by the phrase "taking him outside", probably had exposure as a matter of process. The implication, of course, being that later revelation of fact undermines that exposure insofar as the state would essentially be complaining about the location of interdiction against criminal behavior.

    There are many times when prosecutors decide to split hairs about such points; giving them a reason is probably the surest way to compel them to do so.

    Still, though, maybe there is a reason, say, a Nevada Democrat who demands an Ethics process has decided to not run for re-election; if the office is known to be misogynistic, an accused harasser has every reason to invest hope.

    To the other, it is only irony that might suggest we wonder about recent days in which members of Congress accused of inappropriate behavior toward women might have chosen the infamously useless Ethics process.

    It's actually not funny how often it happens that the guilty are in charge of dealing with the guilty. The question of Mr. Ashmawy's guilt will bear particular and symbolic weight.


    Garcia, Eric. "Report: Head of Congressional Ethics Office Sued". Roll Call. 14 December 2017. 16 December 2017.
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  3. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    I guess we could always go back to the days of "might makes right" and simply hope that the burliest SOB in the room is on the good side when the punches start flying.

    No, seriously, if the Office of Congressional Ethics is broken, then the solution would seem to be to fix the damned thing, would it not? It seems to be a simple choice - have a functional legal process, or have anarchy.
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    To the one, sure.

    To the other, this is Congress.

    To the beeblebrox, Congress has gotten by this long without a functional legal process.

    And it's true, we could go back to the boys' club of might makes right.

    But, similarly, we could attempt to move forward in pursuit of a more perfect union, establishment of reliable justice, insurance of domestic tranquility, promotion the general welfare, and securing blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. These are, after all, our American raison d'être.

    Between here and justice lies a mysterious and fraught path that will, after we have passed, be littered with the detritus of our sin. But who are the corpses rotting to bones and then dust along the side of the road?

    There will always be classism; the rich will prosper and the poor will suffer. And in this question, when we encounter factions that would have the human toll consolidated within other communities in order to inoculate oneself as much as possible, I don't think the problem is that the principles and behavior aren't obvious, but, rather, a question of priorities.

    Still, I don't think it necessarily insignificant that, say, actual progress did not appear in your formulation: "back to the days of 'might makes right' and simply hope". It's not that I don't get what you mean on that point, but I also notice the absence of moving forward in search of justice.

    It's easy enough to joke that certain attitudes are an American thing, like the idea that a majority of our population considers a functional legal process to be one that gives them what they want, but matters of function are generally anathema in the discourse, anyway.

    And while that might seem like a fairly obvious liberal-conservative issue to many, the thing is that liberal and conservative aren't defined by party names. A liberal choosing to hold a conservative outlook, for instance, does not make the conservative outlook liberal any more than it makes another of that liberal's liberal opinions conservative. And there really are certain issues in which the majority of Americans are conservative. And when it comes to disdaining, dismissing, or rejecting questions of function, Americans are about as conservative as people come. And one of the things to remember about political terms like liberal and conservative is that centrism is how we find ourselves, as an American society, condoning rape culture, torture, mass murder of civilians abroad, systemic domestic genocide, or the economic necessity of hunger and malnutrition, just to name a few.

    The American middle ground is atrocious; in a similar context, we might consider that a broken Office of Congressional Ethics, the House and Senate Ethics panels, and, just for instance, a constitutional avenue for impeachment of some officials, constitute a functional legal process; remember that unwillingness to prosecute is not considered symptomatic of any problem, because elsewhere in society we learn that you can shoot your own child to death with a concealed firearm you are not supposed to be carrying and explain that you were just a negligent responsible gun owner who forgot to check the chamber, and prosecutors will point out that you feel really, really bad—I mean, come on, your kid is dead, now, so, y'know, come on! we're all supposed to feel really badly for you because oh God a dead child is a parent's worst nightmare!—and it would be absolutely wrong to charge you. That kind of bullshit already passes muster as prosecutorial discretion, so there arises a question of whether the fulfillment of any given legal process constitutes, in itself, justice.

    If police don't want to move forward on a rape case, for instance, they can just threaten the victim or arrest her and file charges for whatever they want. This, too, counts as a legal process, and the question of whether or not it is functional is important. Because it's not quite anarchy, but when women require lawyers to report sexual assaults because the act of reporting apparently exposes them to such criminality that the police are regarding her as a suspect who has waived her right to counsel while trying to report a rape, what are we calling functional? What are we calling process? And what are we calling the point of it all, because we are in that question astronomical units removed from the question of whether process is justice.

    I live in a state where the current process has prima facie appearance that, to put it generally, "being a cop is a scary job", makes sufficient fear for life and limb to shoot people to death. We all know law and process are set up to forestall justice; the question is whether we're willing to stage an actual shooting war to make the point. Presently, no, we're not. For the most part, not even the people the police are targeting want that. If the arc of history bends toward justice, then there are days it would be nice to be able to actually look off into the distance and know where we're at on the curve because we can see the lights of the promised land shining in the distance of these dark nights.

    A functional legal process is not necessarily something that has ever existed in the United States; there is, of course, an argument that such a statement is absurd, but it requires that process itself equals justice.
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  7. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Absence of "moving forward in search of justice"? Sure, let us move forward unto justice. Let us craft a newer, better, more fair, just and equal system for all.

    Who is going to implement it? Certainly not the GOP - as we've seen, they just want to be able to tell other people how to live their lives. To them, everyone is equal, but they are more equal.

    The Democrats, perhaps? Maybe at one time... but I don't know if I'd trust them to self-limit in such a fashion. That, and they have virtually no power right now.

    An independent party? Sure, they might... if they had a snowballs chance in hell of getting any sort of majority.

    So... to paraphrase - "How we do dis?"
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Yeah, well, y'know, I just went over this ... well, the time I went over it↗ after I went through it↗ in the first place.
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Time Out

    I'm only quoting this again in order to get your attention. An abstract thought occurred, and it really does deviate from the prior post.

    At any rate:

    Steel, Mark. "The Sexual Revolution". The Mark Steel Revolution. British Broadcasting Corporation Radio 4. 7 July 1998. 17 December 2017.

    It's entertainment.

    And don't get me wrong, it's still entertainment even if some woman somewhere decides to be offended despite you or I having no clue why.

    Nor does that mean she should not be offended. It is, fundamentally, a dude's perspective. But, seriously, if she's the woman who knows the man who became who he is today because he learned something yesterday, she will be far more kindly disposed to this manner of humor among the boys.

    Steel, Mark. "Sexuality". The Mark Steel Solution. British Broadcasting Corporation Radio 4. 1995. 17 December 2015.

    No, really. It takes twenty-five to twenty-seven minutes apiece; it's entertainment. Take the time to enjoy.

    (The rest of the lectures, revolutions, and solutions are available via↱.)
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    I'm confused here, so what is "rapeculture" and what does it have to do with this? Is Mr. Ashmawy behavior a product of our culture, and if so would not there by a lot more Mr Ashmawy? If you want a rape culture go to Afghanistan. Considering the steadily falling rates of violent crime, rape and sexual harrasment since the 11990's in the USA I would guess Mr Ashmawy behavior is more likely a product his own faults, for which he himself is responsible for. Mr Ashmaw if found guilty of assault should be sent to prison and forcibly be given the treatment he needs for his addiction.

    In statements given to police, the third woman, Christina Floyd, provided a similar account. “I watched each time Omar would come down and verbally sexually harass the bartender as he ordered drinks,” Floyd wrote in her statement, describing an increasingly angry Ashmawy confronting the bartender.

    “I am a 5 foot 3 woman who never knew this man. I was very scared of him and was afraid he’d come back around for weeks after,” Floyd wrote of Ashmawy in her statement to police dated March 14, 2015. “I have never had a man physically harm me or scare me in that matter. He was sexually harassing, abusing and I feared for my life.” ---

    So a petite bartender had never experiences a man physically harm her or scare her like that before, must mean we live in a rapeculture.
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  11. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    So basically your stance is that it should just... Stop. OK, cool... How do you propose we actually accomplish that, though? If all of humanity were empathetic/humane enough to knock it off, we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place would we?
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Trust me the moment I start suggesting solutions they freak, they literally just want to bitch, not solve.
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Well, we didn't just up and land on the moon, one day.

    Rome didn't appear out of nowhere.

    Part of it is a perspective on history, I suppose. It's one thing for the cycles to repeat; it is another to learn and figure out what to do when it all comes 'round.

    It took humanity, on the historical arc that runs through you and me, how many centuries and millennia of slavery before we dealt with it so directly? And we still have slavery.

    In these United States, we still have not escaped the echoes of our own slaving past.

    Where human rights intersect with women, does it not stand out to you, at all, in the context of history, that we regressed as a society when we started fighting over an employer's right to meddle with women's health care? From 1962 to the early twenty-first century we were, in fact, making progress in our societal regard for the human rights of women. I'm uncertain if it has officially died in my lifetime, or if we're still fighting about coverture; it might be a century, still, before American women recover fully. Consider that it took until 1993 to settle a certain question about marital rape, and in over thirty states it is still less of a crime to rape your wife than some other woman.

    We've been making progress, but the thing is that such progress makes a lot of other people feel really badly, for all sorts of reasons you and I might or ought to find barbaric, so it comes in little fits and starts while men bawl about how they are the real victims, here, and occasionally society decides women have gotten a bit too uppity and does some damage. It's a big, dry, often-boring book, but Susan Faludi's Backlash, for instance, reviewed American society's response to the rise of feminism and liberation. The Gay Fray actually became a surrogate battleground in the nineties and first decade, and now social conservatives are trying to drag society backward because they've rekindled their vicious campaign against women and think it unfair that society made some progress while they were freaking out about queers.

    At what point in history was humanity supposed to achieve such humane empathy? I mean ... right. We're supposedly working on it. We might also remember that other societies continue to make progress while we jerk ourselves around and blame women, people of color ... I mean, do you realize why we won the Gay Fray? Because doing away with this prejudice included helping white men. That's at least part of why society hasn't done the same for women or people of color. That's why bathroom-policemen soccons follow women into the bathroom, instead of asking each other to show it off to prove they're not transgender.

    So we start by making our stand here and now. That's the short term. Responsible discourse is going to be the sort of necessity that, over time, will count its toll in lives when we fail; it already does. But as a middle-term prospect, we face a big mystery insofar as there is already a massive literary base to wrap our heads around, and these sorts of behavioral issues move fast, so trying to keep up with variations on the basic themes, and trying to figure which are significant and which are noise, and, yes, it sounds really messy and complicated because it is.

    But we gotta get out of this place; it's the last thing we will fail to do.

    And the only way out requires, just as a basic necessity, that we stop digging in.

    The long term actually involves figuring the map out. And it is essentially uncharted, so there is a certain doom-feeling element of, "We'll know what we're looking at when we get there". But here's a hopeful thing: Remember that bit where I ask people if they acknowledge and affirm that women are human and have human rights? The first part is simple; I mean, you already know how to answer the question, the more complicated next step is a matter of application, and there is not a convenient cardboard applicator for this one.

    But that's a big part of what needs to happen in the discourse; it does actually get simpler or easier or whatever as time goes by, but in these moments when we must address existential questions, we thought the peanut butter and jelly sandwich game was hard enough so explaining our inquiries and understandings and what we learned last summer and all that is going to be a bit like waking up half-naked and hung over in a barn with an old television set playing M*A*S*H reruns while trying to remember where you parked at the airport. That is to say, it's going to be disorienting and probably involve a headache or sixty-three.

    For instance, an ambient example is that sometimes it feels almost like insult, turning to someone and saying something about, well, how do these attitudes affect the influence of the staff director and chief counsel to the Ethics Office. And maybe they asked for a vector describing rape culture but, yeah, this is the staff director and chief counsel of an Ethics Office for an organization that pays out secret settlements involving nondisclosure agreements that in turn allow predators to continue their hunts; some things seem self-evident. But it is also true people generally cannot—you know, as a general real circumstance—describe to us what they do not see. Then again, that last also provides convenient cover for disruption. Still, such considerations only describe a grim field requiring a genuine Great Work of Civilization, and maybe someday historians will say what they will about the notion of Saving Ourselves From Ourselves and calling it a Great Work.

    Only in America?

    Probably not, but our version is pretty damn incredible because, really, it's incredibly damn stupid.
  14. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    T'would seem to me that the best solution, that would have the greatest chance for success, is also going to be the hardest solution to implement - not because it is difficult per se, but because so many (especially amongst the religious and social conservatives) will find it unpalatable.

    For starters, we need to address the elephant in the room - humanity has a biological imperative. This is indisputable fact - without the drive to reproduce, humanity wouldn't be here, full stop.

    Why does this bear mentioning? Well, we like to think ourselves as creatures above our base instincts and primal urges, which is hilariously wrong. We are still subject to them, and feel them as any other creature does - what sets us apart is our ability to not act instinctively and instead act rationally. It is part of why we now live eight, nine, or ten decades, instead of a mere thirty or forty years; this rational mind has allowed us to advance in incredible ways.

    One thing hasn't advanced much at all, though - our sexuality. As a society, many seem to view it as being utterly shameful, something to be repressed entirely. This... makes no sense at all, really; it is as much a part of who we are and what we are as anything else. Trying to simply pretend it doesn't exist may work for some, but as the ebb and flow of "abstinence only" education and its negatively correlated effects on pre-teen birth rates show, it doesn't work for most, and simply results in spontaneous interactions, unplanned actions, and bad choices.

    What does this have to do with sexual harassment and rape culture, you ask?

    It's tangential, but it is part of the broader picture - learning safe, satisfying, and moderated methods for intimate (and yes, even sexual) contact. Teaching kids that are entering the pubescent heyday of hormones and urges that they can, in fact, satisfy those urges without endangering themselves or others. Letting little Timmy and Sally hold hands and snuggle and all those oh-so enjoyable activities without building up to a nigh-irresistible urge to jump each others bones and do a passable imitation of rabbits. Lets face it - I'm sure most everyone here is familiar with the whole "I want to see daylight!" routine many parents do when their kids start dating. Privacy goes out the window in fear that the moment they go behind closed doors, they will tear each others clothes off and go at it like animals.

    Maybe instead, what is needed, is to teach them how to make good decisions and then trust them to do so. We've tried the whole "iron fist" abstinence only thing for some time now, and the results have been less than stellar. Maybe, just maybe, allowing young adults to establish healthy relationships and learn how to properly interact with their sexuality will result in adults that know how to do so.

    Now, obviously, this won't solve things on its own - well adapted children that grow up into well adapted adults certainly helps, but it isn't a cure-all. We will still need laws and legislation and punishments for those that decide they don't need to respect others rights to self determination and safety and such; sadly, there will always be some "bad" humans among us. All the same, I think setting kids out on the right foot early on, and giving them the tools to make better decisions from the get go will go a fair distance towards curbing some of the issues we've seen (after all, I'm sure we all remember affluenza kid? Seriously, what a crock-0-shit that was). It will require teaching and allowing safe and satisfying outlets for both physical urges and emotions (can we please finally put an end to the whole "real men don't cry" bullshit?) and, ultimately, produce young adults that are better able to function... well, in a rational and normal way.

    Why will this be hard? Simple - as stated, there is a significant group that has this mindset that any kind of sexuality is shameful (come on, we have even taken it so far as to say that girls cannot have bare shoulders in school because it is "too distracting" to the guys... what the what?) and that kids must be utterly sheltered from anything intimate (or, even worse, taught that intimacy is A Very Bad Thing™.) As a result, we wind up with a bunch of people entering the real world with nary a clue what to do when such situations arise.

    Now, in addition, we need to address the laws because, lets be blunt - they are barely enforced and certainly not in anything even resembling a "fair and unbiased" way; money speaks, money is power, and with enough money you can get away with murder with a slap on the wrist; perhaps one of the most infamous examples of this is Ethan Couch, aka Affluenza Kid. Steal beer from WalMart (underage no less). Drive recklessly and heavily intoxicated (Blood Alcohol Level of 0.24%, as well as under the effects of Valium and marijuana) 30 MPH over the posted speed limit, crash into another vehicle, and kill four people, and then avoid jail time because "a psychologist hired as an expert by the defense, testified in court that the teen was a product of "affluenza" and was unable to link his actions with consequences because of his parents teaching him that wealth buys privilege."

    The only reason he wound up serving any jail time (instead of the original probation) was because he violated probation (playing beer pong) and then he and his mother fled the country. Even then, after all that, he was sentenced to a total of 2 years... apparently, each of the four lives he took was only worth 180 days.

    Then there's the case of Brock Turner, which I don't think I really need to recount here. There are numerous others, as well... but the problem stands simply as the unequal application of the law with regards to wealth and power. This needs to be changed, desperately so.

    How do we accomplish that? Well, I don't really know. Right now, government office is really only available to the rich and powerful (maybe not uber wealthy, but the costs associated with a successful run for, say, congress, are staggering, and the average wealth of those in congress is over a million dollars, the wealthiest of which has a net worth of nearly a quarter billion, the lowest of which is supposedly 8.7 million in debt, though we can't be certain because of the limitation on financial disclosures; for example, "Lawmakers are required to list their mortgages but not the equity in their home. That tends to make them look much poorer than they really are, given that homes tend to be the principal asset for many people."

    source - )

    Can we really expect the wealthy elite to impose stricter rules upon themselves? And if not... what is the solution to force these rules to be lawfully and equitably applied? Those that engage in atrocious and harmful behavior against others must be held accountable, certainly - and this accountability must be equitable across the board, or it will simply be used (as we see today) as a cudgel against those without the power to defend themselves, while the powerful find themselves getting a slap on the wrist and then turned free to do it all over again.

    To the one, I can see us "average Americans" being able to implement the first proposal reasonably easily, if we could simply agree to do so, and within a generation could see the results come to light.

    To the other... well, that alone wouldn't "solve" the problem. No one idea really can... and unless we can drag our elected officials, kicking and screaming, along for the ride, well, can we really expect to fix things once and for all?
  15. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Yeah that took planning and technology.

    So here is how to solve "rapeculture" give every man a sexbot, no more harassing of human women, in fact he won't even notice human women. Ok ok not good enough for you, how about this: we start with convicts, jab electrodes into their brain until we figure out how to control their impulses, then we jab electrodes into everyone brain and all crime will be fixed. Ok ok all too much for you, how about tinder (or grindr in your case), safer sexual interactions where one can make specific what they want and when and choose with whom, no office flirtations or awkward pick up lines, just "hey you want to fuck" and swipe left or swipe right.

    So long story short: you can't just wish to go to the fucking moon, you need to say how to get there.
  16. Bells Staff Member

    Rape culture bare minimum definition:

    Rape culture is a sociological concept used to describe a setting in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.[1][2]

    Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, slut shaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by some forms of sexual violence, or some combination of these.

    So, what does this:

    Have to do with rape culture?

    I mean, let's start with this one:
    What, exactly, are you trying to say here? Are you possibly trying to suggest that rape is a biological urge? Or did you just throw that in for random shits and giggles because you thought it sounded good?

    How about this:

    What does this have to do with rape culture?

    Really? Because that's about the only sentence or issue that actually addresses rape culture. Instead, you recount things that have absolutely nothing to do with rape culture in detail, but you don't think a man raping a woman, and a judge who acted in a questionable manner in sentencing (especially given his history with sex crime cases brought before him) needs to be recounted here?

    What do you think is the underlying driver of how these laws are applied, Kitta?
    Why are you trying to change the subject to be anything but 'rape culture' in the current political climate?
    What does this have to do with rape culture?
  17. Bells Staff Member

    Except when that "behaviour" is committed by a favoured politician though right? Then you embrace rape culture by defending the accused whose behaviour embraces all aspects of rape culture, because politics.

    It's not about money. Rape culture knows no financial boundaries. It exists in different formats and ways across every society. Generally, it stems from a failure to recognise women as human beings worthy of rights and with bodily autonomy. It is about the objectification of women, the hatred and misogyny. It's not about who has the most money. It is about how women are viewed and treated in and by society.

    Do you want to solve the issue of rape culture?

    Stop sexually harassing, raping, molesting, assaulting women.

    Stop making excuses for men who abuse, sexually harass, rape or sexually molest women or treat them like objects and who fail to recognise our humanity. That would be a start.

    Stop diminishing the experiences of women and attempting to silence them (such as what we are currently witnessing with your and EF in the Al Franken thread).. In other words, stop harassing women to try to get them to shut up when they try to speak out. And for god's sake, stop changing the subject each time this is being discussed.

    Those are the first steps. And it starts with you and with each person who has behaved as you have over the last couple of weeks.

    Great! If only the solutions you were giving actually addressed or had something to actually do with rape culture!
    It won't solve the problem of rape culture because you are still to even address "rape culture".
  18. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Well then I'm glad we live in the developed world where there is no rape culture! Considering the rate at which "victim blaming, slut shaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by some forms of sexual violence" happens here in the west verse say Pakistan, we have no rape culture. Heck we have here a social media brigade kicking out men left and right based on mere accusations of sexual harassment, let alone rape, if we livened in a rape culture nothing like that would happen. I dare say we live in an anti-rape culture were people are ready to jump head over heals to accuse and punish on mere accusation without due process in the zeal to abolish rape and all possible harm to women. Lets go over it though, who here thinks the victium of rape is at fault?, anyone?, nope, no one. who here thinks rape does not cause harm?, anyone?, nope, no one. Who here thinks sluts are great, I do.

    Rape happens, rape happens everywhere, be specific about the amount, you say 1/4 women in the USA, yet the department of justice gives 1/100 that, what gives? If rape is so grossly under-reported then I got the first solution right here: GO TO THE POLICE! What is your solution? Make men stop raping, yeah and while your at it make murderers not murder (and eat children in your case) and thieves not steal. Heck why don't we live in a murder culture? I heard some good murder culture, a stealing culture? When someone points out the rate of murder in urban communities someone else says that is just racism, sound like widespread denial or murder to me! Oh yeah that right our rate of murder is still pretty low world wide, we got to be doing something right.

    Yes please ask Tiassa that, what does any of this have to do with rape culture?

    Anyways lets listen to some women while we are at it: or
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  19. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    *whistles* This is why I have blotted out your posts, Bells - but after seeing EF's response to you above, morbid curiosity took hold and I had to look. Man, did it ever remind me why I ignored you.

    What does this have to do with Rape Culture? Well, let us examine:

    per your own definition:
    So a sociological concept where rape is normalized due to attitudes. I would say a sense of "entitlement" on the part of the rapist would be part of the problem, wouldn't you? They desire something, they feel they are entitled to it, so they go and take it, be it power, pleasure, control, or some combination therein. Thus, part of the problem is the person committing the act and how they view the world at large.

    Do you wish to claim that the rapist is not, in fact, part of the problem?

    So, behaviors associated with rape culture, in particular, would seem to be of importance - what causes people to undertake these behaviors? I would think a sense of entitlement (example - I'm rich and pretty and if I want a woman to have sex with me she owes it to me because I'm rich!) would play some role in this. Having no known outlets would be another one - to tie in another issue facing society, why do so many people turn to drugs, Bells? Is there a "drug culture" out there as well? Perhaps some people turn to drugs out of desperation, seeking an escape from a damaging reality they perceive they have no ability to change. Do you understand where I'm going with this - tools, Bells. Lets give people the tools to make good decisions and positive actions instead of poor ones; and yes, that means adequate discipline (there's your tie in for affluenza kid).

    Given the above, it would seem logical that removing this over-inflated sense of entitlement would be a good step on the road to eliminating the normalization of rape, would it not? It would also help solve a great number of other things that would undoubtedly improve society for the better, but of course that is unimportant here; we are focusing entirely on the only problem at hand.

    Continued dishonesty, the typical response from you. Kindly point out where I said "rape is a biological urge". What I actually implied was that "sex" and "intimacy" was a biological urge - do you wish to debate what I actually said, or are strawmen truly the primary tool in your arsenal of fallacy?

    Actually, what I embraced was the idea that he should be found guilty before punishment is met out. Or, do you propose that someone who murders someone in cold blood should be given the death penalty before his day in court?

    You are arguing that rape doesn't happen because of money. I don't see where I said it did. Where wealth is involved (and power in general) is what happens after the rape - you know, the whole "justice" process? I get it - you want to prevent all rape, and that is a noble goal; having an equitable process by which an offender is prosecuted and held accountable, applied evenly to all peoples, is a part of how we can get to that goal.

    Oversimplification fallacy - you are unlikely to ever stop all harassment, rape, molestation, assault, etc. Lets face it Bells - murder is illegal. It still happens. Rape is illegal - it still happens. The list goes on - so, saying to all people "stop doing this" is going to accomplish nothing of value. Why do you persist in it, then? Perhaps it gives you a false sense of "doing something"?

    In other words, men should shut up and let the women find a solution?

    Indeed, you are part of the problem - you refuse to even hold rational discussion about potential steps to solve the problem in favor of simply telling people "don't do that", as though telling people "no" is actually going to stop those with such intentions. This isn't Dora the Explorer, Bells - "Swiper no Swiping" isn't going to work in the real world, as much as you'd like it to.

    They actually address something much more fundamental that would curb rape culture (and a number of other societal issues) before it took root in peoples minds.

    Once more, you are loathe to even discuss anything less than a perfect solution... because you have no solution. Face facts Bells - you aren't looking to fix the problem... you are just whinging about it and then attempting to silence and slander anyone who is actually trying to put forth the effort to make a change.

    You aren't going to fix things without addressing the whole issue Bells... but you refuse to do that. You insist that people need to just "stop doing it" - well, go ahead - make every rapist in the world just stop, Bells. Wave your magic wand and do it.

    Oh... you can't?

    Then, how do you propose we "make them stop"? Oh, right, you don't have a proposition, you just demand that they stop.

    And with that said, the filter goes back on.

    Now, if someone else wants to discuss this productively, please, feel free.
  20. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member


    This seems to be something that should start young - teach boys that it is OK to not be the "club your chosen wife over the head" caveman style dude - that being a man does NOT mean demeaning women, does NOT mean being an unfeeling machine, and does NOT require looking up to the old Sean Connery era James Bond stereotypes.

    Seems to tie in pretty well - let people know there are safe and productive outlets for sexuality and they will likely take those routes.

    Uh oh, this one might upset someone because we're trying to bring in topics that aren't decidedly about rape!
    In all seriousness, though - if we are to solve a complicated problem, we have to understand all angles and iterations of it, and find a comprehensive solution, instead of band aids. That means taking a good, long look at ourselves... and we might not always like what we see. I mean, hell, we're STILL stripping land away from Native American tribes (Keystone XL anyone?)


    Of course, then there's:

    A good question.

    So... if it is men's problem to solve, why the #thewomenarespeaking ? She brings up a damn fine point - are we to sit back and force the victims to solve this, when they are not the cause?
    This would be a centerpoint to what I said above - "Turner was sentenced to six months in jail, because anything more could have a “severe impact on him.”" What? WHAT WHAT? A "severe impact on him"? It should have a severe impact on him - he not only broke the law, but he violated someone in a way they will carry their entire life, and was found unquestionably guilty by a court of law of it... and their concern was for the punishments impact on him? I can only guess it is because, as an elite star athlete, his "indiscretion" should not "set the course for the rest of his life"... again, what the what?

    As the author wrote:
    His punishment is incredibly lax... and I have no doubt it would not have been had this been, say, a young black kid from the projects who had to rely on a public defender.

    So, yeah, I would say socioeconomic inequality plays a pretty big role in all this, because if the elite can get off with a slap on the wrist, well, what reason do they have to modify their behavior?

    Also of note:
    How does my previous post tie into Rape Culture? Simple - we need to change the very way people think in order to solve it. Otherwise, we will not prevent any more abuse than we do now.

    My ideas are not unique, Bells - they are not new, they are not special, they are not my own, and they most certainly are not some attempt to change they subject.

    They are the subject, Bells.

    You want to fix "rape culture", well... it starts from day one. Otherwise, it isn't going to prevent anything. Having tougher and more unilateral punishment will help in the short term, and hopefully cut down on the epidemic we are facing today, but relying on punishment alone will not prevent it.
  21. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Now, if you would rather quibble about pointless trivialities and continue your personal vendettas, then by all means go right ahead - just know that I've no intention of letting that get in the way of a real attempt at fixing the problem.

    (man, character limits can be a pain...)
  22. Bells Staff Member

    You do realise that staff can't put each other on ignore, right?

    Yes. But that is not what you were even talking about in your previous post.

    As in, nowhere even close.

    It's actually about how the rapist views women. It's not about the rapist getting shitty that he's not rich or wealthy. Rape culture is about how society protects, excuses, defends, say in the case of a rapist, how he views women or rape itself, for example.


    Which has what to do with rape culture?

    The very notion that there is no known outlets, is a form of excuse or defense for rape or sexual violence. People often turn to drugs to escape. Men don't rape women because they want to escape and forget. Men aren't raping women because they just need a hole as an "outlet".

    Which has what to do with rape culture?

    Do you think men rape or molest or sexually assault women, for example, to "escape from a damaging reality they perceive they have no ability to change"? Do you think excusing and defending the pervasive misogyny against women and protecting abuse, is because it's an escape from reality? How about the expectation that women accept rape culture as a fact of life because of politics? What reality are you escaping from that you think that is acceptable?

    What tools do you think a man needs so that he does not rape and so that society does not then excuse it, blame the victim for what he did, diminish it, etc?

    And yet another example that you cannot understand basic English. I did not say that you did. I was questioning your argument about "biological urges" and what it had to do with "rape culture". I mean, why even bring that up?

    But that's not what you actually said. In a discussion about rape culture, you came out with:

    What does this have to do with rape culture?
    You embraced his being "found guilty before punishment is met out"? Eh?

    You are aware that people have the right to their opinions in regards to whether a politician did something wrong, right? I mean, you seem to have this obscene double standard about this issue. You refer to Moore as a "pedo", for example, thereby having found him to be "guilty before punishment is met out" (which is completely backwards by the way and makes little to not sense). You also seem to completely ignore the fact that Franken chose to not pursue it through the Ethics Committee and resigned after the 8th victim spoke out and his colleagues asked him to resign. He wasn't thrown out or forced out. He made that decision for himself and he chose to forgo his "due process". Put simply, you are all complaining about something that was entirely his doing. His colleagues have the right to voice their opinions about what he did and they did. He wasn't facing a trial. He wasn't facing a criminal justice system. He was facing public opinion and yes, people do have a right to think that he did do it, just as you think Roy Moore molested little girls when you referred to him as a "pedo". Put simply, your moral outrage is hypocritical and partisan.
    You really have a reading and comprehension issue, don't you?

    I said that rape culture is not about money as it knows no real financial boundaries. It exists everywhere, in every level of society.
    Even if you gave everyone the same amount of money and made everyone wealthy, rape culture would still exist.

    No no, please tell me about rape culture Kitta.. *rolls eyes*..

    Rape occurs because rape culture exists. If rape culture did not exist. If it was not a problem, men would not rape women. Do you know why? Because they would see women as human beings, equal to themselves. Because they would recognise women's humanity.

    Do you understand now?
  23. Bells Staff Member

    Men should stop embracing rape culture, in the context of this subject at least, for the sake of politics and political ideology.

    Women have given you the solutions multiple times. We've marched for it by the millions around the world.

    And frankly, given how you cannot even understand what "rape culture" even is and you are intent on changing the subject, thereby participating in behaviour that epitomises rape culture, yes, perhaps you should shut up and change. You have been presented with the solution. And your response has been to either try to change the subject or to bully and harass the women who are speaking out, into silence because we aren't saying what you want to hear about something that affects us directly.

    It's not for women to fix, Kitta. It's on you and others like you to change your behaviour. Not on us.

    Well, if you were actually having a rational discussion, you might have a point. For example:
    Is this you being rational?

    And the more you carry on this way, the more you make my point about rape culture. You are the embodiment of it. When women try to speak about the issue that affects us daily, it affects how we live, how and where we work, where we live, how we interact with society in general, even our own families.. And your response is to declare that I cannot have a rational discussion about something I am intricately aware of, and you can't even understand the basic definition of and you have spent how long trying to change the subject to something completely unrelated.. No, where is the rationale in this, Kitta?

    You want steps? Look in the mirror, and imagine how you would like to be treated in society, at work, at home as a human being first and foremost. And go from there. Those are your first steps to not embracing rape culture anymore.
    How will it "curb rape culture"?

    Perfect solution? To what? You can't even address or discuss the subject matter at all. And every attempt to get you to do so is met with insults and whining and even more subject changes.

    Yo, troll, I am actually trying to get you to address "rape culture". You are changing the subject and abjectly refusing to discuss it. Why is that, Kitta?

    I mean, what part of the solution is you changing your behaviour, didn't you quite understand? The solution starts with you and your behaviour and your views of women. And thus far, you have belittled women attempting to address rape culture, you have insulted us in the other thread, you have persisted in trying to change the subject when we try to discuss it, you have persisted in trolling, harassing, demeaning the women who are discussing it. And then, you are dumb enough to tell me that I am not looking to fix the problem. The problem is you, Kitta. If you want an example of rape culture in the flesh. Look in the mirror. Your behaviour, your embracing the protecting of rape culture for the sake of politics, your willingness to sell women out for the sake of politics, is the embodiment of rape culture.

    You aren't trying to effect change. To do that would require introspection. And you are simply psychologically incapable of that, as has been evidenced by your behaviour when the women try to discuss rape culture in this and other threads. So stop blaming everyone else, stop passing the buck, stop acting like a misogynistic arse, and look in the mirror.
    Oh hey look, even more diminishing of the only women left who is willing to try to address this subject with you... And you have the temerity to try to lecture me about a solution? The irony.

    I've told you how to make them stop. It starts with you. Look in the mirror. Your inherent misogyny, your willingness to excuse sexual assault for the sake of politics. Your willingness to demean and diminish women on a subject that we know more than you do.. That's rape culture.

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