Pro Choice or Pro Life, Obama is wrong!

^ it's called using examples.

Even if it was just a simple podiatrist, denying someone a helping hand because of some set of belief is kind of against a doctor's purpose; helping people no matter what their ethnical/racial/social/religious background is. You want the best for your patient.

By allowing docs to choose on whom and what they want to operate on or not unequal treatment of patients is being supported.

Hitler deserves the same medical treatment just like Gandhi. A poor kid deserves to get the same medical treatment just like any rich kid.
If the doc doesn't like that then he/she should have never become a doctor in the first place.

 

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Are podiatrists required to swear the Hippocratic Oath, or some variant?

 

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True but the two out of several hospitals here are called Baptist Hospital and St. Thomas Medical center (actually one of the premier heart treatment facilities in the country).
Nashville is a huge healthcare town right in the middle of the bible belt.

 

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I think it used to be mandatory for all physicians, but nowadays it is not obligatory any more. The truth is..it's outdated. Although there's a modern version of the Oath written by Louis Lasagna which many medical students do take.
And during their studies they do also have to partake in the studies of Medical ethics.

But technically it's up to the physician if he wants to swear the HO or not.

 

General and particular

A Real Conscience Clause? Nobody wants it.

In an earlier post, and referred to it as candy for the anti-abortion crowd.

The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life notes that after the "Church Amendment" prohibiting the requirement that federally-funded health care professionals and insurance programs participate in abortion, "States rapidly adopted conscience clauses – mostly for abortion ...."

This is an issue-specific conscience clause, and what people are asking for is generally a patchwork of similar clauses, or a federal umbrella patchwork solution. That is, only certain conscience issues are included; others are deliberately excluded.

Few people, if any at all, want a real conscience clause. The whole conscience clause argument is just a cottage issue for the pro-life crowd. How many who would argue for a doctor's right to refuse to perform an abortion or a pharmacist's right to refuse to issue legally-prescribed birth control would also argue a doctor's right to refuse a blood transfusion?

This isn't really about consciences and controversial drugs or procedures. This is about women, health, and exercising control over reproductive technology. Burying this political movement in rhetoric as a divine right to conscience is fundamentally dishonest.

• • •​

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you worked retail? Yes, it's been a while for me, too, but even in the 1990s, management indoctrinated the staff with the proposition that we were there for the sake of the buyers. The problem with this assertion is that while it helps to act like it's true, nobody really believes it. And while this might well seem to reinforce your sarcastic assertion, that's a secondary issue. Do you think, at some point, the disconnection between what people say and what they do might start to have an effect on perceptions?

Certainly you're aware that dependability is an attractive quality in most people's minds. Regardless of sincerity, businesses, churches, schools, hospitals, politicians, and lawyers all play after that need. We know the lawyers don't mean it. Politicians? Please. Schools are repeatedly and thoroughly crucified over the idea. Businesses? Lawyers? Politicians? We've long learned that dependability is just a sales pitch with them. Doctors? People need to be able to depend on their health care professionals.

I, for instance, have a good doctor. For all his gruff bedside manner, the man simply doesn't lie to his patients. If he says you're gonna die, you're gonna die. If he says there's nothing to worry about, you can trust in that, too. It's nice to be able to actually trust what someone says. When I talk to my doctor, I don't want it to feel like listening to sound bites on cable news.

It's an interesting comparison; is mission purpose relevant to the altruistic proposition? Being there for the buyers is an expensive and dangerous business endeavor for a used car salesman. Being there for the patient is the purpose of being a doctor.

But yes, as far as I can tell, everyone from the clerk at Barnes & Noble to the Starbucks barista is still told that they're there for the customers. I even got that lecture at insurance companies, and that was all administrative services work—if I ever talked with a policyholder, something had gone wrong.

But people have expectations about certain things. They've been led to believe that doctors and health care are there for them, and have many substantial reasons to expect it true.

If we're going to change that, let's skip all the political pretense and just tell people straight out.

I think the question of whether or not a pregnancy is conceived in a matter of hours is a fairly immediate concern with fairly immediate impacts.

Indeed, if we want to consider a real conscience clause, and not some political rally flag like we have in this thread, then I would say a blood transfusion is definitely an immediate health concern.

 

Tiassa, if you could condense that part of your post, leave out some/most of the unimportant words, that might make a damned good topic for discussion. But please, please, don't use that silly-assed footnote shit, okay? It's pretty good the way it is, but it's too damned long and wordy, that's all.

Baron Max

 

a-fucking-men!

 

hands up the number of people who would forgive a doctor who told a girl who wanted an abortion that she had a fevor so he couldn't do it then and there and then everytime she called back put her off till it was to late to do it?


How many people would accept similar deceptiveness from someone not in the health care sector as simply a reason to change providers?

health care IS concidered different to other sectors

 

First, ....is he the only doctor in the world capable of doing abortions?
Why didn't she just find another doctor to do it?
Why didn't the doctor direct her to some other doctor?

No, emergency healthcare is considered different. Note the emphasis on ...EMERGENCY...

In normal, everyday medical practice, doctors refuse patients regularly and without recrimination. There are tons of doctors all over towns and cities.

Baron Max

 

Because she was just a teenager and he lied to her, making her think that no one would perform an abortion because she was supposedly sick and he lied about what the procedure was for a patient who was sick. Telling she had to wait and wait until it was to late. Most people don't suspect their doctor's are lying to them and take what they say as absolute truth. Because for the most part their right and it serves you best to listen to them. Unless your an idiot like me and go back to work the day after you're released from the hospital.

 

That's one of the big issues with the "conscience clause" - the pro-life folks who are running this scam want to be able to refuse to refer and inform.

That's the main issue, actually.

 

Thats true, people dont know there is more than one doctor.

 

...LOL! Yeah, we need more freakin' laws to tell us that. Plus we definitely need more government help to figure some those complex things out ...surely "We, the people..." can't possibly figure out shit like that.

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I support Bill Engvall on that issue ...stupid people should have to wear a sign around their necks that says, "I'm Stupid!"

Baron Max

 

don't worry baron your sign is in the mail.

 

I mean they want the right to decide for other people and that is wrong.

 

in the time being wasted, the baby is growing. at some point a person considering abortion might be forced to have the baby based on their beliefs regarding whats an embryo and whats a person. so this ice addict is forced to have the baby knowing the kid's prolly gonna be all fucked up.

if all doctors are able to facilitate the abortion within a reasonable time limit, using a different doctor and perhaps facility, then i guess there isn't a problem in regards to the scenario.

 

All about you ....

Okay. Let's try it this way: You're wrong, Max. Your entire confusion regarding Milkweed's post was completely invested in a reading comprehension error that anyone bold enough to declare their duty to remind everyone else of their errors and help them redirect their anger and frustration ought to be smart enough to figure out in the first place.

So that's all it is, Max. Once again, like so many other occasions, you are somehow managing to miss the point in such a manner that suggests either spectacular stupidity or calculated deliberation.

Far be it for anyone to address the argument instead of just turn it all on you, right? So we'll dispense with things like ideas that are relevant to the discussion topic, and simply make this about you. Alright? Sound good?

I mean, it's a hell of a lot easier. And for those inclined to take whichever petty pleasures they can find, it's a lot more fun.

So all you need to remember about that post that confused you is that you're wrong. Just like usual, Max, you're wrong. Dazzlingly so. And even dysfunctionally if that sort of "thinking"-such as it might be called—ever catches on.

Is that easier to understand? Or are you ready to tuck in that pouting lip and discuss the issues like an adult?

 

Nope, Tiassa, you're the one that's wrong.

And as usual with all of your posts, you even use too freakin' many words to even try to insult someone! ...LOL! By the time people are finished reading your bullshit, it doesn't matter if it's an insult or not, they're just more than happy to be finished reading. You and Fraggle should have a contest ...to see which one of you is the wordiest sonuvabeach!

Baron Max

 

another example of why a doctor is not a merc dealer. If a merc dealer sells a coustimer a car and then meets up with them latter and fucks the coustimer what happens?

Possably the dealer will be fired if the owner belives they gave a bad deal for the company in exhange for sex but criminally nothing

Now think what happens if a DOCTOR is caught fucking a pt.

We dont even use the same WORDS to describe the relationship, one is a coustimer and the other is a PT for christ sake and yet you (barron) and others still think doctors should be treated like other buiness. Well lets look at another industry where there are special requirements, if a shop assistant comes to work drunk whats the worst thats going to happen? Now change that to a pilot and whats going to happen?

Not all things are equatable and med is one where the person has chosen to take on a greater duty of care in exhange for certain privlages. If they dont like sociaties expectations of that then find another proffession. Symple as that

 

Asguard, ye're putting doctors on a pedestal where they don't belong! Doctors are sued every damned day for doing things wrong, so don't make it out like they're some kind of gods in our society ....they ain't!

And as I've been saying, over and over again, some of y'all (like you, Asguard) seem to be confusing "doctor" with "emergency doctor" ...the two ain't the same!! A doctor in a private practice is no different than a used car salesman ...just selling different things, that's all. And if a private practice doctor does not want to deal with a type of patient, then he simply refuses to see them. And there's not law that I know of that requires all doctors to see all patients.

Asguard, you can put doctors up on a high pedestal if you want to, but don't forget ....the higher up they are, the farther they will fall.

Baron Max