dsdsds Don't even bother. He's created an entire army of strawmen that could even topple the great United States. It's just a waste of time.
Whatever you have to tell yourself. I'm open for honest debate. You are a coward to blame me for your inability to present it.
Some proof that you hate Iraqis (don't really have time to do an indepth search): 1)You don’t accept the FACT that the pictures (staged or not staged) show undisputable wrongdoing by Americans. And you believe there is nothing wrong with humiliating Iraqi prisoners in front of women (and men): 2. You easily dismiss or refuse to recognize the mostly innocent (said the red cross) Iraqi prisoners’ rights and respect by saying things like: And 3)According to you, we should Based on the “staged” photos of Iraqis being degraded. Simple questions: would you “accuse” and “whine over SO LITTLE” if your father or your brother was one of the prisoners in the "fake" or "staged" photos?
Empathy is always such a great resource.... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! No dsdsds, it's not hatred toward Iraquis, it is just the old american policy of "national security"....
*sigh* You didn't explain how that supports the premise that I hate Iraqis. More importantly, perhaps you could consider that the entire debate revolves around my assertion that if the pictures are staged, I don't think that's a "wrongdoing". Worse, you frame the "wrongdoing" as "indisputable", which is circular reasoning on your part as your conclusion is foregone. As I've illustrated clearly with the example of fake choking wife pictures, your assertion that there is no difference between "staged" and "not staged" is obviously your foregone conclusion rearing its ugly head. I don't think it's the desirable route, but in a war when you have to extract information, humiliation is a questionable, but sometimes justifiable technique. Sleep deprivation and stress is certainly acceptable, though I do not envy the people subjected to it. I suppose that's what you get for taking pot shots at Americans with guns. It might not be fair, but that doesn't change much. If it were my brother I'd be pissed of course, but I wouldn't expect the world to capitulate because I'm whining about it. If I did I would be wrong. The fact that they are POWs has little to do with that they are Iraqis. These particular POWs have information that is valuable to the survival of US troops. I don't give a shit if they are Iraqi or Canadian. Humiliation in a POW camp. Say it isn't so. Your assertion that I "hate" Iraqis is obviously incorrect. I do however HATE people who would kill me, or people who completely abandon rational discourse in order to claim "racism" or "hate crimes". Anyone you know fit the bill? Examine my post above with the plus and minus stuff. I said "so much whining over so little" in that context. Since you are apparently irrational, I doubt explaining something so subtle as context will have an impact... but the context of the comment in question was "the entire outrage here is based upon staged pictures", which given the example of the difference between "real" and "fake" that I supplied above, is perfectly reasonable - though I realize your presumption forces you to disagree. Yes indeed. If you have falsely accused someone of something based on evidence that was fabricated for, in this case, a secret military operation, then you IMO, should learn something from your mistake. Of course this is all dependent on that subtle concept "context" that you apparently do not fathom. Exactly. Apparently the idea of a "staged" photo doesn't carry any weight with you. If I "staged" a picture of shooting you, it would be no different than if I had actually done so right? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Of course I can't say for sure what I'd do in a situation like that... but you see, this is an attempt to rationally analyze the scenario. Do you think that hypothetical emotional questions are relevant? Regardless, I'll address your attempted point "if the shoe was on the other foot, blah blah whine and moan". Well I'll tell you, I think I'm rational enough in the long term that if this happened to my dad or (I don't have a brother) brother, I would be hurt and pissed at the individuals involved in degrading them (possible to the point of wanting to exact retribution), but in the long term I wouldn't hate iraqis or the iraqi government on that basis alone. (I certainly wouldn't "hate Iraqis" as national affiliation is somewhat random in nature). OH... Yeah and you still never showed how any of that relates to me "hating Iraqis".
Hmmm. I guess I have to agree with you wes those photo's were staged. It's not as if they were taken in a hurry. The dudes taking the pics were obviously not too worried about somebody catching them so they had time to set 'em up for maximum 'giggle' effect. Just look at this obviously staged photo. http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/gallery/2004/05/07/15-toe.jpg It's gotta be staged otherwise the photographer was mighty lucky to be around just as one eyeraqi tripped and fell.. And just look at this cute chick.. http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2004/05/20/1abughraib2.jpg She's cute! Shame about the corpse. Well I guess that corpse will spill the beans now he's been humanely killed and gently humiliated by thoughtfull coalition troops. Information saves lives! BTW that dead dude in the photo escaped! At least no record can be found of his whereabouts. he never got to the morgue at any rate. Full story over here if you interested. Just a quick snippet for you if your not. Anyway whats another dead raghead? I agree the pics were staged. The 'shoe on the other foot' argument is irrelevant too. As an American you know full well that this shit will never happen to you so whats the point in worrying about it? If the eyeraqis wanna stop staging photo's of themselves being abused then they should get the next plane out! Give me your huddled massess ect ect. Dee Cee
Interesting rationalization, wesmorris... Yes, the idea that somehow these pictures were "staged" is probably the last viable scenario where the US has ANY chance of maintaining credibility in Iraq. Unfortunately it doesn't hold much water as far as I can tell. I may have missed it in this long thread, but I've not see any proof that these photos were staged in some manner; and I'm not sure it can explain the ongoing allegations which it seems has uncovered sodomy, rape and murder. Were those staged also? As a full-blown Bush supporter at the beginning of the invasion. I have concluded that today: 1) we have no clear military mission at this point in Iraq 2) we are incompetent both militarily (the abuse scandal) and intelligence-wise (lack of WMDs that were expected) Therefore we are really left with only one viable alternative - find a way to slink out of the Iraq. In other words, damage control.
indeed no wonder. But really I think wesmorris is just making fun no more, he just tries to infuriate us no more, I believe he is not that thickhead, he is a smart guy Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
youknow, i dont like people being mean. i mean, we only live for like... less than a century (unless your real nice and clever) so why bother with all the "fussin' ana fightin'" (Homer, Simpsons) and just GET THE HELL ALONggggg?
Good pics, not staged, and part of the whole picture, Wes. Unfortunately they are becoming increasingly rare: Before the invasion and souring of the occupation, it was much easier for Americans to travel in Iraq, mingle, and enjoy the company of everyday people. Of course there are real friendships budding even in the midst of a misbegotten war- They always do. Americans aren't monsters, we're just sporadically and collectively acting that way for no valid reason.
I suppose. Have you read everything I've said about it here? Now this is going to sound a smidge callous and I apologize, but these pics simply seem so out of context that they fuck me up and I don't know what to think of them. Consider if you were to find pictures of your friend's dad fucking your mom in the ass with a cattle prod and she looks terrifed as far as you can tell in the picture. In reality, your dad actually gets off on that kind of picture when he's getting his freak on, but in normal circumstances it's simply distastful and extremely disturbing. I draw the comparison not as justification for any action, but as a point that the actions taken out of context may simply be impossible to understand. I do not insist it is so, but the idea of staging those pics purposefully for psyops does serve to explain a context that is seemingly inexplicable to me otherwise. Sometimes when I look at them I completely agree with that, and other times it occurs to me... how do I know? I don't think you're going to see that evidence either, as perhaps admitting that they were staged could have a more negative effect than riding out the storm of public opinion. Public outrage is pretty easy to manipulate, as you might have noticed. Allegations. Let me know when the independent, unbiased investigation has total access to reading the minds of the people involved and present their analysis. Anything else we hear about it will almost certainly be spun to someone's inevitable implementation of their agenda - be it conscious or unconscious. What's worse is that even if it wasn't, it'd be impossible to delineate it from a fictional account. Please understand, that is not a testament to "there's no guilt", but more of one to the fact that I don't trust one bit of news coming out of Iraq. Rather, I can't take any of it at face value. Which is incorrect. The mission is the smooth transfer of Iraq into a democracy. I'd guess that the close second, which is not publicliy touted, is to draw out and kill as many terrorist wannabes as possible before the majority of US forces withdraw. And I'm simply not as of yet convinced that it is what it seems. It may well be, as those pictures are pretty damned convincing. Regardless though, I do not at all trust what has been officially touted as "the story". Militarily however, we are not at ALL incompetent. Perhaps though we are with the handling of prisoners, which I'd nitpick - isn't really a military issue. Sort of, but it certainly has little to do with combat effectiveness - which is the military's primary role. 4 gallons of sarin is at least a smidge eh? Regardless, we did not invade iraq because we were sure they had WMDs. We did it because it was too risky to take the chance that they might - and more fundamentally because Sadaam's pride let him to break 1441 which gave us legal reason to remove him which allowed for the bold (though horribly risky) plan of trying to change the face of the middle east. That is exactly what we're trying to do. It is a tough row to hoe as was expected, but I tell you to this day I admire the president for having the balls to try. It remains to be seen if his plan will be effective. I think that is a dangerous, though viable option - like most of them I guess.
As is expected, you have little recourse but to let your ass type for you. It must take you forever to post. Are you sure you know if they're increasingly rare, or are you just saying that because you assume it must be true, like the rest of your empty rhetoric?
You Stick to your guns Wes and don't let those naysayers let you down. It may will be true that you find fewer pictures of smiling kiddies playing with GI's (Hey you see that cheeky little fella poking his tongue out for the camera?) but thats only because the blast radius of an RPG or roadside bomb tends to dissuade the locals from getting too close. Thats what Salem Pax sez anyway. Having spent his life in Baghdad and being pro war should add a little weight to his words. (Hey whats the truth worth if you ain't got a point of view?) This boy is clear about where his sympathies lie. http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1197021,00.html So I guess your right on the money with your assertion that things are not as bad as the worlds media, governments and NGO's would have you believe! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Go! Go! The Wes collective! You leader has spoken! Dee Cee
Oh and also we should note that the prisoners in Abu Ghraib were not entitled to Geneva Convention protection. As sampled from an online version of the geneva convention. I don't suppose that matters eh?
They fall into "(c)"... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Why do you even bother Wes? Just take it. They were human beings and they were/are tortured by the US. Just take it. It is not your fault, you know?
Alright, I repect that. I just hope you understand that chances are that your "client" will be proven "guilty", if you know what I mean....
